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WordlessNature
kÅ¡atrīya


Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 412
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
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P. Subbalteatus
#5344963 - 02/27/06 11:37 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Since panaeolus has been a common topic as of late, I might as well bring it up. I believe that the foothills and grasslands in my area are home to subbalteatus. There is a large ranch adjacent to mine and there are cows grazing on approximately 800 acres. I am guessing that after these rains there should be a plethora of different mushrooms popping up. My hopes are that panaeolus will be among them~
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psychonautix
21st CenturySchizoid Man


Registered: 11/14/05
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Loc: 3532i 122393j 243509k
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If I were you I would go looking for Liberty Caps, from the sound of your area you will have just as much, if not more, luck with finding libs.
-------------------- Elevate Organically.
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sui
I love you.


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Taken from Shroomery FAQ,.


In first picture notice that the gills are adnate (broadly attached to the stalk and whitish on their edges. In the second picture notice that the substrate is manure and the thick stem. In the third picture notice the substrate is a fertilized lawn and the thinner type of stem.
CAP 2-6 cm broad, convex or bluntly conical becoming broadly convex to broadly umbonate to plane or with uplifted margin; surface smooth or wrinkled, in age sometimes breaking into scales (fissured, not viscid; color variable: brownish to reddish brown or cinnamon brown when moist, fading as it dries to tan, buff, or even whitish (or grayish from spores), often with a darker (reddish-brown to brown or dark gray) marginal zone when partially dried. Flesh thin, brownish. GILLSAdnate to adnexed or seceding, close, broad, at first pale watery brown or reddish-brown, darkening gradually to black; edges whitish, faces usually mottled in age. STALK 4-10 cm long, (1)3-6(10) mm thick, equal or tapered at either end, hollow but not fragile, brown to reddish-brown, but often appearing whitish from a fine powder, or dusted gray by spores; apex often paler; usually longitudinally striate throughout; base (and mycelium) occasionally staining faintly bluish when bruised. VEILAbsent. SPORE PRINT Black; spores 10-14x7-9 microns, elliptical, smooth.
HABITAT: Scattered to densely gregarious-often in small clumps-in manure, compost, and fertilized lawns; widely distributed.
EDIBILITY: Hallucinogenic-the psilocybin content varies from moderate to low, perhaps due to differences in the nitrogen concentration of the substrate.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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sui
I love you.


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: sui]
#5345157 - 02/27/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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look on horse chips and bails of hay.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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eris
underground


Registered: 11/17/98
Posts: 48,024
Loc: North East, USA
Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
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Yeah, from my experience and all that I have seen on here/elsewhere, there is a better chance of finding them near horse manure composts. They are also known to grow straight from hay bails.
-------------------- Immortal / Temporarily Retired The OG Thread Killer My mushroom hunting gallery
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sui
I love you.


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Quote:
psychonautix said: If I were you I would go looking for Liberty Caps, from the sound of your area you will have just as much, if not more, luck with finding libs.
have you found libs in cali?????
ive never seen a substantiated report of Libs in Cali. Plus the season for Libs is over so, no he probobly wouldnt have more luck finding Libs.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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georgeM
Human


Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 1,748
Loc: Osage Cuestas
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: sui]
#5345561 - 02/27/06 02:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Keep in mind while checking hay bales that mushrooms of the Coprinus genus also love hay and straw. Don't be confused or disheartened if and when you find large quantities of Coprinus. If you are not familiar with these you may want to educate yourself a bit just to familiarize yourself with an extremely common non-active mushroom... as you are very likely to encounter them.
georgem
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Hell i found this pile around where the cattle feed on hay. They stand around in a circle and eat of the circle bail. crapping and eating. The grass gets tall the ground gets enriched and muddied. I find them as a late spring mushroom.
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xmush
Professor ofDoom


Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: Jaw-juh
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Those look like P. foenescii. The gills look to be lower than the margin of the cap.
xmush
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: xmush]
#5345650 - 02/27/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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ha ha no way! Spore print was all good. On the few larger specimens i see what you are saying but on the p. foenescii i never noticed that the gills went lower then the cap. Maybe i never saw any large ones but they grow all over my yard and give brown prints. These were found on and around dung in a cow pasture. The enlarged picture is the actual size of them. Notice the BLACK spores on the caps.
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georgeM
Human


Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 1,748
Loc: Osage Cuestas
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: xmush]
#5345676 - 02/27/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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They look like mature subs to me. A little worse for wear. This year I plan on paying very close attention to the gills as i think I?ve noticed many subs with gills that hang below the margins of the cap... as a sub matures the cap can become flat to even slightly sunken. When specimens are young this idea of low hanging gills might be a better indicator for differentiating between the two. Once the cap becomes flattened with age the gills will certainly be hanging lower than the margins. georgem
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: georgeM]
#5345694 - 02/27/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yeah i wasnt really expecting to be picking so many or any for that matter. I was at work on my friends farm. I came back with a shirt full. So they kinda got beat up hardcore. You can kind of possibly see some blueing effects on some of the larger specimens stem bases.
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xmush
Professor ofDoom


Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 2,421
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Thanks for the info. I see the black spores now, and that one does look a bit blue. For some reason I had it in my head that low hanging gills=foenescii.
xmush
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: georgeM]
#5345829 - 02/27/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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It is not uncommon for the gills of Pan subbs to hang down below the cap in older specimens.


I think the variation in morphology is due more to the age of the mushroom than to different substrates.
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xmush
Professor ofDoom


Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 2,421
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: shroomydan]
#5346148 - 02/27/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Very good to know. This old pan subbs faq from here should maybe be changed then: http://www.impakt.net/~tyler/subbs/
thanks for all the info. I've recently found a rather large, state owned horse pasture and they seem to dump their manure piles right by the fence, so I'm hoping I find some subbs this spring.
xmush
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pioneering_south
range
Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 144
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Hello to THE SHROOMERY!
Welcome to the world of the madness, of shroom hunters abroad.
We are the seekers, and finders we will all become, as those who have seen the fields of gold will know. I love the gold and I love the secrets, and I use my gains for noble reaches, I extend to the masses the extent of my grips. Which just happens to include panaleaous subbalteatus!
For the beginners... LOOK EVERYWHERE. I mean GRASS, ASS( horse or cow) and in the fields PASS The mushroom spirit is a true being, and when I am in tune with the mushroom, the mushrooms come to me. It will come if it's right.
yes I mean I almost crush the active varieties in my daily work routines and activities. It's weird how powerful the mushroom can speak in the purple lights of the mind. They come and tell me things. I converse with the mushroom, and we speak back and forth on the astral.. it's weird how it all comes true.
But I love pan subbs...By the way, the pictures of subbs on page one of this thread can be misleading. They can be thin stalked very often, as long as the print is black, and there is lines where the stem joins the cap, and the normal twisty stem, they are subalteatus.
mushrooms are crafty, and often predictable.
The subbs where I come from, have thin stems, and they dry in the sun down to nothing... the return to dust as they have came.
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xmush
Professor ofDoom


Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: Jaw-juh
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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what a first post 
thanks and welcome to the shroomery!
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WordlessNature
kÅ¡atrīya


Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 412
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: xmush]
#5347760 - 02/27/06 11:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Thank you all for your replies. I shall be hunting endlessly after this storm front passes through...
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trevorda8
My home isearth.


Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 128
Loc: P.N.W.
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
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Good post, I as well as alot of others have learned a great deal of information. May this post last awhile longer so others can benefit from this information.
I beleive I found subs in a fertilized lawn once, while looking for stuntzii's. The print was black, but the stems were thin. I posted a picture here awhile back, with everyone telling me they were fossils. Their reason being that the stem was too thin to be subbs. So I threw em' out!
I do have a question though- Could I find subbs in a grassy field? A field that has not had any animal of any kind in it? One of those fields where the grass was once long, but they cut it and it looks all messy, with dead grass inertwined with the live grass?
So the dead grass acts as hay in a hay bale.
Here's another: Would I be abel to find subbs in the straw that they lay down in construction sites?
I think these questions will add to the knowlege, if they can be answered. Thanks
-------------------- "All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be" -Pink Floyd. Memories make up our lifes as we know it. Our souls are lost between time and space.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 4,126
Loc: In the woods
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: trevorda8]
#5348491 - 02/28/06 07:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Would I be able to find subbs in the straw that they lay down in construction sites?
Last year someone posted a Pan subb find from construction bails in central park NY.
The field with lots of cut grass sounds like a good place to look, but I don't know for sure.
As for the thickness of the stems, that is just a general rule; there are exceptions.

The two on the left are Panaeolus subbalteatus; the two on the right are Panaeolina foenisecii.
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trevorda8
My home isearth.


Registered: 11/27/04
Posts: 128
Loc: P.N.W.
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: shroomydan]
#5348505 - 02/28/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You know what? I DID find subbs! I can notice the red in the stem of the subb. What I found were the same say. Im going to look up that post, nice lettin me know.
Trevor
-------------------- "All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be" -Pink Floyd. Memories make up our lifes as we know it. Our souls are lost between time and space.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: shroomydan]
#5349713 - 02/28/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have also found them along roadsides in hay bails on construction sites. They were being used to prevent runoff. That was a nice find..... ah yeah!
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CubensisCutter
mycologist


Registered: 07/04/05
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what temps do they grow in?
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thats right cubes in december bitches
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Warmer weather...........lol i say its gotta hit 70's for a bit but i could be off
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pioneering_south
range
Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 144
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: trevorda8]
#5350981 - 02/28/06 08:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Construction sites are a good place to look. Anywhere with cut and dried hay or straw is better than looking in plain grass. And of course in manure is the best of the best. Straw can carry the spores, especially since lots of hay they are putting down at construction sites has been near the area of the subb growth. Yes, subbalteatus grows on fescue grass..... just normal grass, and dirt. I have also personally found them growing directly from a pile of manure, I also heard they grow on grass clippings and straw. Horses bring more pan subbs than cows do... it's a simple fact I've come to realize where I live. If the print is black, the stem is twisty, and there is the lines where the stem joins the cap, it is a sub NO MATTER HOW THIN the stem is. The thin stems ones here dry in the sun down to the literal thickness of a hair. Of course, more prime subbalteatus Do develop that fat ass twisty stems that I love to stare at study :mushrooms:
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eris
underground


Registered: 11/17/98
Posts: 48,024
Loc: North East, USA
Last seen: 4 months, 18 days
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In my area, the best times to look are spring and fall. They seem to be less common around here (or at least in my experience) in the hotter days of summer. I can still find em in the midst of sumer, but just not as frequently is seems. Lots of people post finds of them on here in the summer though.
-------------------- Immortal / Temporarily Retired The OG Thread Killer My mushroom hunting gallery
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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USually haystacks that were left out o all winter to compost is the place in ORegon to look, especially around Eugene corvalis on highway 99 west and 99 east. large bales of hay stacked all winter with tarps and where tarps have blown off doe to wind resistance. Those are good spots. Check the article by me here a tthe shroomery called Close encounters of the Panaeolus kind.
mj
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: mjshroomer]
#5353879 - 03/01/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I can hit 99 with a rock from my window =)
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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You need to find hay stacks and/or rotted hay left out all winter to compost. usually around later March through May and some in the early fall months.
While Panaeolus subbalteatus is A common mushroom distributed around the world.
Very few find a large quantity.
Especially in manure is rare.
Mitchnast in Nova SCotia has a field. GGreatOne234 has picked some in Florida as has Lizard King in Georgia.
The majority of this mushrooms population appears in rotted hay at riding stables in the compost heaps mixed with wood shavings and horse manure.
Does not grow directly in horse manure but can also be found at race tracks.
Finding them in grassy areas is also almost next to impossible.
Joshua found one such beautiful freshly fertilized lawn a few years back. After several months they never came back again.
The Willamette Valley region of Oregon was once also a haven for large bales of hay stacked all over along highway 99 east and 99 west. Not so today because they are growing other grains. But there are still stacks from small farmers crops.
Angry Shrooms large find in northern California in a compost heap has apparently not been producing for several years since he never posted any other images since his original large discovery. Those images of Lizard king and Angry Shroom and a few others large Panaeolus patches are posted at:
http://www.mushroomjohn.com/panaeolussubbalteatus1.htm
Again, finding them in a lawn is a rarity. One or two and hundreds of Panaeolina foenisecii.
And as for cow manure, their second habitat, that too is rare. There might be a field every now and then, but in 8 years here at the shroomery, only about five people have found them like Mitchnast in N.C., Canada.
mj
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shroominDole
Stranger


Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 482
Loc: O.C . S o. C a l .
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: sui]
#5355616 - 03/01/06 10:48 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Stamets says in Psilocybe and Allies 78' under Psi. semilanceata (Libs) ".........throughout Pacific Northwest east Cascades from NORTHERN CALIFORNIA to British Columbia......."
Arora says in Mushrooms Demystified 86' ".......especially common from NORTHERN CALIFORNIA to British Columbia..........sometimes in the spring"
-------------------- Worlds Largest 'Liberty Cap' (Cali Libs Confirmed !) ' Comments On Hallucinogenic Agarics And The Hallucinations Of Those Who Study Them ' Alexander H. Smith Mycologia vol.69 1977
Edited by shroominDole (03/02/06 08:55 PM)
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sui
I love you.


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Quote:
shroominDole said: Stamets says in Psilocybe and Allies 76' under Psi. semilanceata (Libs) ".........throughout Pacific Northwest east Cascades from NORTHERN CALIFORNIA to British Columbia......." Arora says in Mushrooms Demystified 86' ".......especially common NORTHERN CALIFORNIA to British Columbia..........sometimes in the spring"
never seen pics by anyone. I know they are here too thats not what i said. I said he wouldnt have more luck finding libs.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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Liberty caps do not grow in the sprinng no matter what you have read by Stamets or Arora. They too make mistakes in their books. If you read his Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World, Paul says they grow intrhe fall and here is the page from his book ont he libety caps. The final word is for northern California. Show me a single known colelction yet form Northern California. .

An example of a major mistake by Stamets is his description of my Psilocybe samuiensis mushroom which he listed as on page 140 of Psilocybin Mushrooms of the world, Quote:
Psilocybe samuiensis Guzman, Allen and Merlin
Well Paul left the accent mark off of Guzm?n's name and gave the wrong authors. It should read asm "Psilocybe samuinsis Guzm?n, Bandala and Allen.
There are numerous outher errors in his guide. This is common in all published guides. Paul calls the book Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World but lists many6 ex/Stropharia shrooms in his book which contain no psilocine/psilocybine at all, for example, Psilocybe caerulea, Psilocybe aeruginosa to name a few.
Several non-active species of Panaeolus (P. antillarum, P. semiovatus, P. sphinctrinus, etc., are described but contain no chemical compounds and originally were i.d'ed due to a false positive, and Paul added blue coloring to one of his photos of Psilocybe baeocystis found on page 97. And his Panaeolus foenisecii (brown spored mushroom) is really Panaeolina foenisecii and belongs to a different genera than Panaeolus species which have black spore pronts, not brown like panaeolina speices). Those are to name just a few.
Anyway, again, the liberty caps do not appear in the spring.
Only one time in 32 years I found 22 specimens on a lawn in South Center D Shopping Mall in Tukwilla when there were massive pasturelands there and never found them again at that habitat. For 20 years, that mall was a shroom haven due to Evergreen tree service which once they stoped the service, all of the blue ringers and baeo lawns which were common for years were gone due to the removal of pasturelands to make way for industrielle offices and warehouses and giant stores like best buy, Kosco, Home Depot, Office Depot etc. And that find was extremeley rare.
Also your statement abotu growing in the spring from Paul's 1978, Psilocybe Mushrooms and their Allies" book was an mistake which he corrected in his new book as shown in the picture I posted above.
mj
btw, I wqas the person who actually sold the very first 100, off the press copies, of Psilcybe Mushrooms and Their allies for paul at the Conference on Hallucinogens and Shamanism in Native American Life in San Francisco in the late fall of 1978.
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UndulatingVioleT
Stranger
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: mjshroomer]
#5359809 - 03/02/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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When should we begin looking in the Vancouver Washington area for subbalteatus.? Meaning, temperature, MOnth? I would imagine it has to warm up a bit and maybe rain some more/// Is this correct... Asking Mj for a reply, that would be lovely and much appreciation/
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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They have been observed in topsoil and woodchip gardens in the Seattle area in richly fertized very black soil, Rich in nitrogen and in light woodchips, in gardens in Dec, Jan and Feb. However the usual season for their natural occurance is late March, April and May.
By June it gets to hot for them. Read the paper here in the faqs somewhere called, "Close Encounters of the Panaeolus Kind."
In the fall, they sometimes appear in cow manure in pastures but very rare in the PNW.
More common in Hay Compost Heaps and stable shavings with horse manure at race tracks and riding stables.
mj
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shroominDole
Stranger


Registered: 12/19/05
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Loc: O.C . S o. C a l .
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Re: P. Subbalteatus [Re: sui]
#5362547 - 03/03/06 06:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote: Suimush said.... never seen pics by anyone. I know they are here too thats not what i said. I said he wouldnt have more luck finding libs.
was responding to your request for reports on occurence of Libs in Calif. though substantiated is a whole nuther can a' larvae(maggots?) to open(eat?)......thought Arora & Stamets might be good ones.....didnt know you meant pics.......
You stated you know Liberty Caps (Ps. Semilanceata) occur in Califonia..........How?
-------------------- Worlds Largest 'Liberty Cap' (Cali Libs Confirmed !) ' Comments On Hallucinogenic Agarics And The Hallucinations Of Those Who Study Them ' Alexander H. Smith Mycologia vol.69 1977
Edited by shroominDole (03/03/06 06:45 PM)
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