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Offlinepowerpak14
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Registered: 01/03/06
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5347007 - 02/27/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Personally I don't like Salvia, also I don't like what is going on here. It has happened before with weed, lsd, mdma, shrooms. As soon as it starts to get popular The Establishment begins to notice...then something like this happens, and the media blows it out of proportion. This just goes to show how ignorant and close minded The Establishment really is. They always tend to make something they don't like illegal no matter what they know about it... and usually they know nothing. And this whole salvia situation proves this point even further.

Oh yea, and konnrade, I really like what you are saying about the whole "reality and phsycadelics" thing.


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OfflineClammyJoe
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: powerpak14]
    #5347069 - 02/27/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Can people so ignorant as to think that this plant somehow took control of his body and mind from him, and made him kill himself? People need to stop settling for what their told, and they need to think and look for themselves before that pass judgment on anything, this country is full of media controlled minds, not that they have no choice, but they are either too lazy or scared to find out what everything is about. They would rather sit at home drinking their coke on the couch than be out seeing for themselves what this world is about.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Tangerines]
    #5347075 - 02/27/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Tangerines said:
Wow this makes me mad.  I am going to email the dude who wrote that.  I will post his response when I get it.

This is the message I sent the reporter.  I hope to get a reply.

[color=#FF0000]All right you think you know salvia you don't.  Salvia needs to be respected with utmost regard.  It is not a toy.  It is a tool and those who harness it correctly (or it harnesses you) learn a great deal from it.

Another note, Salvia is not the strongest natural hallucinogen known to man.  Why don't you do some damn research? Aren't you a reporter?  Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is the strongest natural hallucinogen.  It is in your brain right now.  You get huge bursts of it while you are in the REM stages of your sleep.  Some think that it is what causes your entry into the dream world and also accounts for the "light at the end of the tunnel" phenomenon when you die.

Alcohol kills thousands of people every year and affects many more.  Why is alcohol legal?  Salvia 'supposedly' kills one person and everyone gets all in a ruckus.  It is the damn media that influences everyone's opinion.  How can one of the most dangerous drugs known to man be legal while a simple plant with some unique characteristics is getting all this attention?  LOOK UNDER YOUR NOSE.




I hate to be mean, but your e-mail makes you sound like a stereotype. He's probably going to have a good laugh at you and then delete it or send a canned reply. You can't talk to the average person the way you talk to the rest of us on the shroomery, you need to take into account the fact that when he reads your e-mail he will be specifically looking for reasons to assume you're full of shit. This is even more true with reporters, it's their job to sniff out bullshit. They don't always succeed, but all the honest ones will try their best. From the perspective of a person with an anti-drug opinion, your e-mail reeks of reasons to call it bullshit.

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
Quote:

Konnrade said:

it is nothing more nor less than a series of neuron firings and neurochemical processes




Couldn't that be said to describe this reality as well?

You have never had spiritual experiences with others who see the same things as you? The same things that "don't exist." ?
I have. Hundreds of times. And if you could see, you would know that the assemblage point is a very real thing. What about shared dreams? Where you both experience the same thing in a dream? Or out of body experiences? There is indeed more to this reality then we are aware.

How about remote viewing? Are you aware that the CIA has been using remote viewing for decades? Well... they have... This is public knowledge via freedom of information act. Google it. Imagine what they are doing that is classified...




Quote:

Konnrade said:
If you can provide reliable data which disproves that fact, then feel free to try and disprove it, such is the path of learning. However, "what if" is not proof, nor is "maybe", nor is "but there's the possibility of". Those are the exact opposite of evidence, they are the products of an idle mind looking for sensationalist explanations of the world in an attempt to seek mysticism, fantasy, excitement, or wonder.





You're trying to use a question as evidence. Questions aren't evidence, they're questions. I have most definitely heard of remote viewing (I used to listen to Coast to Coast AM too :tongue:). Nonetheless, what you're saying isn't data, it's an observation mixed with speculation, there is a difference. You are, right now, in only the first step of the scientific method and are grasping at ideas to move onto the second step with. It's an intriguing subject, but until someone actually takes the time to study it it's just a bunch of hobbyist philosophy.

And, I feel compelled to point out that philisophy is most often neither a science nor an art, it's exactly that: a hobby. It is a hobby wherein people try to think of questions that cannot be answered. They usually then try to answer them with evidence that cannot be proven. It's a fairly vicious cycle of speculation.

And, I might add... how does remote viewing have anything to do with you claiming that hallucinations are a different reality? They're just a perceived effect, SO IS REMOTE VIEWING. The mind may posess a capacity we do not recognize yet that allows it to see a distant location, but that distant location is ALSO just the same reality as normal, perceived in a different way. Do you not understand this? It is not hard to wrap your mind around this, and it does make good sense.

If doctors installed a prosthetic eye in a blind person, and wired it to their brain, allowing them to see (and they had never seen before), did those scientists just teleport the blind person into a bizarre new reality where they can actually see things? For god's sake, NO. In the same way, when people explore a new sense that allows them to see remotely, they are not somehow warping their mind into some fanciful new dimension, they would just be utilizing one of their senses. It's like being able to smell what a sandwitch smells like for god's sake. There's nothing mystical about being able to smell my cat taking a shit, and there's nothing mystical about the human senses... not even the ones that paranormal enthusiasts like to gossip about.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


Edited by Konnrade (02/27/06 08:56 PM)


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Konnrade]
    #5347160 - 02/27/06 09:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
Quote:

Konnrade said:

it is nothing more nor less than a series of neuron firings and neurochemical processes




Couldn't that be said to describe this reality as well?

You have never had spiritual experiences with others who see the same things as you? The same things that "don't exist." ?
I have. Hundreds of times. And if you could see, you would know that the assemblage point is a very real thing. What about shared dreams? Where you both experience the same thing in a dream? Or out of body experiences? There is indeed more to this reality then we are aware.

How about remote viewing? Are you aware that the CIA has been using remote viewing for decades? Well... they have... This is public knowledge via freedom of information act. Google it. Imagine what they are doing that is classified...




Quote:

Konnrade said:
If you can provide reliable data which disproves that fact, then feel free to try and disprove it, such is the path of learning. However, "what if" is not proof, nor is "maybe", nor is "but there's the possibility of". Those are the exact opposite of evidence, they are the products of an idle mind looking for sensationalist explanations of the world in an attempt to seek mysticism, fantasy, excitement, or wonder.





You're trying to use a question as evidence. Questions aren't evidence, they're questions. I have most definitely heard of remote viewing (I used to listen to Coast to Coast AM too :tongue:). Nonetheless, what you're saying isn't data, it's an observation mixed with speculation, there is a difference. You are, right now, in only the first step of the scientific method and are grasping at ideas to move onto the second step with. It's an intriguing subject, but until someone actually takes the time to study it it's just a bunch of hobbyist philosophy.

And, I feel compelled to point out that philisophy is most often neither a science nor an art, it's exactly that: a hobby. It is a hobby wherein people try to think of questions that cannot be answered. They usually then try to answer them with evidence that cannot be proven. It's a fairly vicious cycle of speculation.

And, I might add... how does remote viewing have anything to do with you claiming that hallucinations are a different reality? They're just a perceived effect, SO IS REMOTE VIEWING. The mind may posess a capacity we do not recognize yet that allows it to see a distant location, but that distant location is ALSO just the same reality as normal, perceived in a different way. Do you not understand this? It is not hard to wrap your mind around this, and it does make good sense.

If doctors installed a prosthetic eye in a blind person, and wired it to their brain, allowing them to see (and they had never seen before), did those scientists just teleport the blind person into a bizarre new reality where they can actually see things? For god's sake, NO. In the same way, when people explore a new sense that allows them to see remotely, they are not somehow warping their mind into some fanciful new dimension, they would just be utilizing one of their senses. It's like being able to smell what a sandwitch smells like for god's sake. There's nothing mystical about the human senses, not even the ones that paranormal enthusiasts like to gossip about.




You misunderstand me... I didn't say remote viewing is a different reality... And of course the fucking lady isn't in a different reality because she has a fake eye... come on man... I'm not trying to present evidence. I'm trying to show you the light. SCIENCE DOES NOT EXIST IN THE SECOND ATTENTION. Try to wrap that around your head  :wink: So you can take all your "scientific method this and science that" talk and throw it out the window... The only way for science to work in the second attention would include the scientists being in the second attention. You would need a device that could shift the assemblage point to specific positions and hold it in place. Thank god people are already working on such ideas. Hopefully something will be created within the next 30 years or so that can do this. It will change the world - If the governments allow it...


BTW - you got a rating.


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


Edited by EquilibriuM (02/27/06 09:07 PM)


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OfflineInTheFlesh714
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5347186 - 02/27/06 09:08 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

wow, i couldnt read all the other posts. but i saw this coming from a mile away. and of course "THAT salvia" killed him. the kids dad didnt even know what it was. salvia has helped me many ways, and out of all the ways to commut suicide, i think what that kid did was pretty sad.


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InvisibleaDoS
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Registered: 06/18/05
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: InTheFlesh714]
    #5347530 - 02/27/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Those parents are so dumb, the kid was probably just depressed or somthing, theres plenty of other reasons why people kill themselves besides being "on drugs".


--------------------
"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
:drooling:GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH:drooling:


Edited by aDoS (02/27/06 10:37 PM)


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OfflineKaleidoscope
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: aDoS]
    #5347691 - 02/27/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I reworked my post into an e-mail and sent it to that reporter

Quote:

In your article on the death of Brett Chidester, I can't help but notice that either you did very little research on the experience or the plant itself or you are demonizing it with untrue information intentionally. I have no problems with you having your own opinions on certain substances but I believe you have a responsibility to report correct information about the subjects you cover. First off, Salvinorin A is not the most potent naturally occurring psychedelic or hallucinogen, n,n-DMT or dimethyltryptamine holds that position, being an active component in the ayahuasca brews used by shamans in the Amazon. The effects of salvia divinorum are also not even close to those of LSD. To include in your title that it is an LSD-like drug is irresponsible. LSD's effects last for up to or longer than 12 hours. Salvia's last 10 to 20 mintues. LSD allows the user to be active and endanger themself while under the influence of it, salvia allows for no such thing. It is not something that he could have used then killed himself while under the influence of it as it induces a sort of trance that makes movement impossible. It saddens me to think things like this get blamed on such wonderful and amazing things that have been used safely for thousands of years to bring about religous experiences. I really have a hard time believing that anything psychedelic in nature could be the causative factor in someone's decision to end their life. There would have to be something else there that the psychedelics aggravated or accelerated. Every time I indulge in one of these mind altering substances they remind me of how unique and great life really is. They make me WANT to live, rather than just not want to die. Obviously some people should not use these things but to blame the drug for that person's actions is insane. You can't blame a chemical for your actions, you can only blame yourself. If chemicals are to be blamed, why do we have the ability to legally purchase and consume alcohol, a terrible, addictive drug that kills thousands a year outright. Unfortunately these days everyone wants to blame everything that happens to them on something other than their own choices or the choices of the individuals around them. It's a very sad thing when people no longer take responsibility for their own decisions or accept the decisions of those around them. It's a shame this lad decided to end his life, but to say that he is not responsible for what he did because he smoked an herb that has been used for thousands of years is just more propagation of the lunacy that society indulges in to make themselves feel better. This lack of personal responsibility in America these days is far more destructive than any drug.




--------------------

Purple haze, all in my brain, lately things just don't seem the same. Actin' funny but I don't know why, 'scuse me while I kiss the sky.


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OfflineHypercube
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: aDoS]
    #5347704 - 02/27/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Konnrade,

If I may join the fray...

Let me begin by pointing out the religious conviction of the scientific mind. The scientific method ASSUMES the existence of truth (read "reality"), and employs the cognitive (mis)understandings of causation and individuation to "prove" or "qualify" the assumed truth. Now, tell me how this differs in any substantial way from ASSUMING a god, and employing the (mis)understandings of instinctive morality and miracles to "prove" or "qualify" his existence. I'm not saying that god doesn't exist - - I have no evidence for or against - - but I also reserve judgement on the existence of truth or reality for the same reason. The concrete truth of an agreed-upon reality which science has so convincingly "affirmed" is nothing more than what works for modern minds. Science seems like the only solid thing to believe in; it has given us all sorts of practical abilities in the realm of action we normally exist in (...or was that god?)

But the suspicion remains. Perhaps due to the fact that each new "development" in science is a destructive force; destroying previously held beliefs while simultaneously raising multiple new questions. It seems as if the bridge being built by the scientific method continually collapses from behind us while the truth on the other side of the river fades into obscurity.

Remember that merely 200 years ago, people thought they had the universe pretty much figured out. Now that we've disproved much of THEIR "knowledge," we think we have the universe pretty much figured out. In another 200 years I expect some to look upon present sentiment with similar distaste and arrogance. Or perhaps some will realize that there IS no universal truth, that what we have always CALLED truth is no less subjective than musical taste, and that any statement of "eternal law" or "fact" is merely the consentual interpretation of an indescribably stupefying chaos.

:EDIT: Wow, I got carried away. This WAS a thread about salvia. Shall we continue this discussion in phil/spir guys?


--------------------


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Hypercube]
    #5347737 - 02/27/06 11:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

the kids a dumb ass; his death was pretty forseable if you ask me.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Hypercube]
    #5347911 - 02/28/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
Konnrade,

If I may join the fray...

Let me begin by pointing out the religious conviction of the scientific mind. The scientific method ASSUMES the existence of truth (read "reality"), and employs the cognitive (mis)understandings of causation and individuation to "prove" or "qualify" the assumed truth. Now, tell me how this differs in any substantial way from ASSUMING a god, and employing the (mis)understandings of instinctive morality and miracles to "prove" or "qualify" his existence. I'm not saying that god doesn't exist - - I have no evidence for or against - - but I also reserve judgement on the existence of truth or reality for the same reason. The concrete truth of an agreed-upon reality which science has so convincingly "affirmed" is nothing more than what works for modern minds. Science seems like the only solid thing to believe in; it has given us all sorts of practical abilities in the realm of action we normally exist in (...or was that god?)

But the suspicion remains. Perhaps due to the fact that each new "development" in science is a destructive force; destroying previously held beliefs while simultaneously raising multiple new questions. It seems as if the bridge being built by the scientific method continually collapses from behind us while the truth on the other side of the river fades into obscurity.

Remember that merely 200 years ago, people thought they had the universe pretty much figured out. Now that we've disproved much of THEIR "knowledge," we think we have the universe pretty much figured out. In another 200 years I expect some to look upon present sentiment with similar distaste and arrogance. Or perhaps some will realize that there IS no universal truth, that what we have always CALLED truth is no less subjective than musical taste, and that any statement of "eternal law" or "fact" is merely the consentual interpretation of an indescribably stupefying chaos.

:EDIT: Wow, I got carried away. This WAS a thread about salvia. Shall we continue this discussion in phil/spir guys?




I have to admit this is getting a bit deeper into philosophical debates than I am able to keep up with. I'm all about fact, so I'm not very good with philosophy, at all.

But about the destructive/constructive nature of science. yes, it certainly does tear down the past quite often, but that's a good thing. With each new iteration of understanding, some of the previous understanding is destroyed, but is replaced with a more logical explanation.

Yes, that does of course mean that it's entirely possible for today's "fact" to be incorrect. But the thing about the way science works is that we can assume something is fact right now due to there not being enough evidence to say it isn't. The most sensible thing is to utilize the current understanding of fact unless it is proven wrong.

It's worked fairly well until now, \when mankind is wrong, he find evidence that he is, and his understanding evolves. It's very similar to the way that nature evolves. I've never seen anyone come up with a better way of doing things.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Konnrade]
    #5348420 - 02/28/06 07:01 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

at the symposium, all of the main speakers actually said that the realities and dimensions we go to are actually real when on a psychedelic.

He said the "beings" we encounter there are real as well.

(why do you think salvia is often referred to as a "she")

This came from the forefathers of psychedelics, the ones who were able to have the best product whenever they want, and to explore it as deep as possible.

the greatest minds in the world were really at that convention.

i wish it could have last forever.

it really was quite unbelievable.

obviously everything for every person is taken differently and needs to be taken with a grain of salt....

but you cannot deny what psychedelics do to you is a very special, and odd thing.

why do you think so many people over the thousands of years have paid worship to gods through psychedelics?

were they all clinically insane to think that the reality they were experiencing was real?

i dont think so.

its all about perception.


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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Offlineacidtripper8
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: mskip23]
    #5385005 - 03/10/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i knew that kid, sucks for him and his family but i never liked him. i dont think that salvia was his problem either


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OfflineLSAsshole
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: mskip23]
    #17990750 - 03/21/13 05:27 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

if anything he would smoke salvia and blow his mind and never ever do it again if he cant handle life salvias not that kind of drug nobody actually likes salvia unless you pussy puff it if he was tripping hard enough to kill kill himself under the influence of something like salvia he wouldnt even be able to unnder such a heavy force altho i could see it as a breakthru tool to fully break thru to the beyond and completely open yourself for death and chaos if it was a PLANNED religious suicide in which case you couldnt really blame the fifteen minute balls to the wall novelty herb for something that was clearly deeper rooted deeper than even knowing what that stuff is


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OfflineDenisius
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: LSAsshole]
    #17992732 - 03/22/13 12:23 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

"LSD-like herb"? Salvia D?

Jesus Christ, the idiots leading the willfully ignorant.


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