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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Konnrade]
    #5341549 - 02/26/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
I'll try and put this in the right words, but symantics for this kind of subject can be daunting :crazy:

The "reality" you experience under the influence of psychedellics is an actual experience, it is a valid memory, and it is a form of reality... however it is not a TANGIBLE reality, it is not necessarily true, and should not be thought of in any literal sense, because that can be dangerous. You can easily experience something in a psychedellic experience that seems very true to you, but is actually very false and could be very bad for you. Take this "reality" with a grain of salt and apply your own wisdom to it... it should not be regarded the way you regard tangible reality, which is always true and can be measured, quantized, studied. Psychedellic reality is not a real "dimension", it's just a stream of consciousness that you have to make sense of, it's entirely the result of your own mind, and the human mind is a very flawed thing that should not be trusted without scrutiny.




This "reality" is only solid and can be measured because it exists in the normal assemblage point position. Meaning that we all agree on this reality and have been set to it since shortly after birth. Other realities seem "less solid" because we haven't had all this time to accept them and tune into them. Therefore science can only exist in the first attention. To say that other realities aren't real because science cant understand them is absurd. Science is lying to you.


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5341673 - 02/26/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

On March 1st salvia will be illegal in yet another country:

About the article: I think only of family secrets. The kid had his salvia, the parents had their x, y and z. That is why he lied about his saliva use and that is why he killed himself. But in America the media never explores the family secrets -- after all, they don't exit.


Edited by Lakefingers (06/01/06 02:55 AM)


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5341698 - 02/26/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
Quote:

Konnrade said:
I'll try and put this in the right words, but symantics for this kind of subject can be daunting :crazy:

The "reality" you experience under the influence of psychedellics is an actual experience, it is a valid memory, and it is a form of reality... however it is not a TANGIBLE reality, it is not necessarily true, and should not be thought of in any literal sense, because that can be dangerous. You can easily experience something in a psychedellic experience that seems very true to you, but is actually very false and could be very bad for you. Take this "reality" with a grain of salt and apply your own wisdom to it... it should not be regarded the way you regard tangible reality, which is always true and can be measured, quantized, studied. Psychedellic reality is not a real "dimension", it's just a stream of consciousness that you have to make sense of, it's entirely the result of your own mind, and the human mind is a very flawed thing that should not be trusted without scrutiny.




This "reality" is only solid and can be measured because it exists in the normal assemblage point position. Meaning that we all agree on this reality and have been set to it since shortly after birth. Other realities seem "less solid" because we haven't had all this time to accept them and tune into them. Therefore science can only exist in the first attention. To say that other realities aren't real because science cant understand them is absurd. Science is lying to you.




Science being unable to study it isn't my only reason. My other reason is because it's coming from inside of your own brain, it's just a chemically induced dream. The philosophy of the "dude, what if..." can be fun to discuss, but it's almost always folly... you're not going to another dimension when you take drugs, you're just altering the way you perceive things, and allowing your own mind to start altering everything you can perceive. This can be insightful, yes, because your mind can do very neat things in this state, but assuming that it's anything other than the product of your thoughts is a delusion and nothing more.

Delusions are bad. This boy's parents blame Salvia for his death because they are delusional and cannot accept the truth because their mind does not like it, it's threatening to their mindset because they prefer the "reality" they see in their delusion. You want to beleive you go to a real place when you take drugs, so you have a delusion that helps you beleive that you do, when you really don't.

This isn't some mystical concept beyond current understanding, this is psychology, a human science that is based on thinking with your sensibility as opposed to thinking with your fantasies. It may be preferrable to beleive something else, but when you think reasonably about it, it's not too hard to see things for what they are.

I like psychedellic drugs, they have a lot of capability to do many useful things, but I'm not foolish enough to entertain fantasies about them transporting my consciousness to some alternate dimension, I know better.

The dumbass who killed himself had delusions about the psychedellic reality being an alternate reality, and he thought that was real, and that's most likely why he killed himself. His "alternate reality" suggested a really stupid idea to him, and being the fool that he was he accepted it as truth and killed himself, rather than taking it with a grain of salt and realizing how utterly retarded the idea was.

I'm being fairly vicious, but it's the bloody truth.


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OfflineTurn
Hey Its Free!

Registered: 12/14/04
Posts: 367
Loc: The fabled catbird seat
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Konnrade]
    #5341804 - 02/26/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

To what Konnrade said above me:
Yeah your point makes good sense but still your oppinion is also based on "dude, what if..." because you can't Know that it isn't real. It is best to assume that Salvia world isn't Real, but still you can only claim it isn't Real with just as much proof as those who claim it is.


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OfflineGrapefruity
Lawn Gnome
Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 601
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Turn]
    #5341854 - 02/26/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It's like a video game...looks real...but isnt...You coud still get lessons from a video game you could use in reality ...

Mixin the psychedelics with reality goes far...I had a break where I firmly believed the lsd visuals were showing the history of lsd across time. It the most interesting trip ever though.

My goal since i dont know when...To detach from those far out thoughts when tripping, and to understand things, in ways i can teach em to people in reality, in a simple, more global way. To include everyone and every possibility...Makes sense?


Edited by Grapefruity (02/26/06 05:36 PM)


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Grapefruity]
    #5341911 - 02/26/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

konrade you do have a very strong and intersting opionon.

my hypothesis is this:

they are different dimensions that are "built in" to our dna... its not like your soul is really going to another planet

but the whole history of knowledge is built into our dna... just like these alternate realities or alternate dimensions.

they are obviously all different from person to person because each specfic persons mind does influence the way their brain thinks and therefore interacts with these other dimensions/realities.

psychedelic drugs just "turn on" the brain to the correct and untouchble other wise, frequency to ride these waves of electricity/pleasure through our own brain.

Dr. hofmann himself in his book says that it is in fact your own mind producing the psychedelic experience... the drugs just turn that switch on. obviously


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Konnrade]
    #5341945 - 02/26/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

this reality most of us are in now is reality, but it is only a small part of reality. When we are able to shift our assemblage point we are able to see glimpses of other aspects of reality. Why would you think that what we are experiencing now is all there is?


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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Offlinepsychonaut_420
psychonaut

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 285
Loc: mid atlantic
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5342020 - 02/26/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

that kid must of already had some deep mental problems before even using salvia


--------------------


"Life sucks, Shit happens, Smoke weed and forget about it"


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5343393 - 02/26/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EquilibriuM said:
this reality most of us are in now is reality, but it is only a small part of reality. When we are able to shift our assemblage point we are able to see glimpses of other aspects of reality. Why would you think that what we are experiencing now is all there is?




It isn't, but it's the only universally true reality. The "reality" you experience on psychedellics is a fictional reality produced by your own thoughts, and while it may feel real, it is not... it is nothing more nor less than a series of neuron firings and neurochemical processes. That is beyond a hypothesis, and even beyond a theory, it is fact. To argue with it is merely stubbornness... there is more than enough factual proof of it to make arguments against it a waste of time. If you can provide reliable data which disproves that fact, then feel free to try and disprove it, such is the path of learning. However, "what if" is not proof, nor is "maybe", nor is "but there's the possibility of". Those are the exact opposite of evidence, they are the products of an idle mind looking for sensationalist explanations of the world in an attempt to seek mysticism, fantasy, excitement, or wonder. And, "but you're not 100% certain, so I am equally as likely to be right" is an argumentative fallacy, so do not allow yourself to think that either. Simply put, the argument which has supporting evidence is far more likely to be correct than the "what if" scenario with little or no evidence being proposed by someone who prefers to adhere to it.

I sound pretty dogmatic by now, but I speak from experience. I've met more people who refuse to accept facts than I care to recall, they're all looking for unlikely answers to questions whose answers are allready known. Why do they do it? Because the answers they fabricate appeal to them more than the fact does, so they delude themselves into beleiving it. It's a very sad part of the human psyche, but what makes it even sadder is how truly ubiquitous it is.

I'll end by saying that I am very pleased to have had a good excuse to use the word "ubiquitous", I love that word. And then I will apologise if I have insulted anyone with my words, but I'm an overly honest man, and I prefer not to phrase things like this gently... I prefer to match the brunt force of reality by using the brunt force of speaking curtly.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Konnrade]
    #5343568 - 02/26/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:
I sound pretty dogmatic by now, but I speak from experience. I've met more people who refuse to accept facts than I care to recall, they're all looking for unlikely answers to questions whose answers are allready known. Why do they do it? Because the answers they fabricate appeal to them more than the fact does, so they delude themselves into beleiving it. It's a very sad part of the human psyche, but what makes it even sadder is how truly ubiquitous it is.



I'm so refreshed by such a beautiful voice of reason in a world so full of shit. :grin: :thumbup:

This reasoning can be applied to so many different belief structures.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


Edited by Ekstaza (02/26/06 11:00 PM)


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OfflineBleep
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Registered: 01/09/06
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5344059 - 02/27/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I had a very similar experience as the man in the article, that is the realization of the futility of working my ass off to get my SUV and move to the suburbs. I however at the same time as feeling life as meaningless as it was, the love my family had for me and vice versa, not to mention the amount of stuff on this plane I have not experienced. ever plummeted off a 100 foot quarry into a lake, shaved your head bald for no reason or jumped on a moving train just to see where you end up? The only purpose I strive for is new experiences, be it technological, natural, or intellectual. If I actually had believed life is complete working 9 to 5 and watching law and order reruns, I would probably of taken the same route. I believe this is the true purpose of art in the world, not to bring the experiences of oneself to share, but to wake people up to the wonder all around them and to create there own experiences.

God, its good not to be a sheep.


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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Konnrade]
    #5344779 - 02/27/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Konnrade said:

it is nothing more nor less than a series of neuron firings and neurochemical processes




Couldn't that be said to describe this reality as well?

You have never had spiritual experiences with others who see the same things as you? The same things that "don't exist." ?
I have. Hundreds of times. And if you could see, you would know that the assemblage point is a very real thing. What about shared dreams? Where you both experience the same thing in a dream? Or out of body experiences? There is indeed more to this reality then we are aware.

How about remote viewing? Are you aware that the CIA has been using remote viewing for decades? Well... they have... This is public knowledge via freedom of information act. Google it. Imagine what they are doing that is classified...


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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Offlinesic_zim85
Bach's Bitch

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 225
Loc: Brainsville
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: A0999]
    #5344861 - 02/27/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

anarchist0999 said:
"We just won't have any answers, and we have to learn to accept that," Kathy Chidester said. "But my gut feeling is it was the salvia. It's the only thing that can explain it."


what a bitch. just cause your sons head is fucked dont blame it on salvia(something you know nothing about).


"The site where Brett Chidester got at least one batch sells it in packages dubbed "mind bender," "mood mix" and "freshman selection." It sells a "party pack" of three different strengths of extract, plus four ounces of leaves, for $207.90."

lol, that kid got jacked.





salviasupply.com...those mother fuckers!  Well people, I guess it was time that the shit hit the fan and it did.  Wont be long now, for shame...:(

=ERik= :mushroom2:


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OfflineJfisher
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: mskip23]
    #5344899 - 02/27/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It looks like the kid just didn't bring back what he learned and apply it correctly. That's not so much the drug or experience as it was his mind's reaction to it. If his mindset was life losing meaning, any kind of deeply significant experience could have triggered his reaction.

ignorant users=ignorant laws.


--------------------
Any information written above is purely fictional.
Any images do not belong to the owner of this account.


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OfflineTangerines
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Jfisher]
    #5345073 - 02/27/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Wow this makes me mad. I am going to email the dude who wrote that. I will post his response when I get it.

This is the message I sent the reporter. I hope to get a reply.

[color=#FF0000]All right you think you know salvia you don't. Salvia needs to be respected with utmost regard. It is not a toy. It is a tool and those who harness it correctly (or it harnesses you) learn a great deal from it.

Another note, Salvia is not the strongest natural hallucinogen known to man. Why don't you do some damn research? Aren't you a reporter? Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is the strongest natural hallucinogen. It is in your brain right now. You get huge bursts of it while you are in the REM stages of your sleep. Some think that it is what causes your entry into the dream world and also accounts for the "light at the end of the tunnel" phenomenon when you die.

Alcohol kills thousands of people every year and affects many more. Why is alcohol legal? Salvia 'supposedly' kills one person and everyone gets all in a ruckus. It is the damn media that influences everyone's opinion. How can one of the most dangerous drugs known to man be legal while a simple plant with some unique characteristics is getting all this attention? LOOK UNDER YOUR NOSE.


Edited by Tangerines (02/27/06 12:29 PM)


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Offlinesunshine
Sin18DwireWuTang

Registered: 04/03/04
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: A0999]
    #5345146 - 02/27/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

My cousin overdosed on heroin but he really killed himself.


--------------------
One Love True Indeed.  Have Good Trips.  Mike/sunshine's mom.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: sunshine]
    #5345898 - 02/27/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Why don't you guys outlaw charcoal?

This guy had suciidal issues and would have considered the same things with or without salvia... it just kind of accelerated it.

This sucks though, I can clearly see how salvia may make someone feel that way, but meaningless and meaningful are two heads on the same coin.

To realize one is to simultaneously realize the other, which I guess is something that he did not do. That's how it seems to me anyway. There's beauty in the dissoance and arbitrary ways of the complete chaos that we find ourselves in.

We put meaning into our own lives, and he chose to take matters into his own hands. It is sad but it's his decision to do and salvia should not be blamed.

What sucks is just on the walk home just now I was having an imaginary argument in my head about why salvia is not a dangerous drug and should not be scheduled to some hypothetical confrontational anti-drug audience. [i have many such dialogues].

Quote:

The site where Brett Chidester got at least one batch sells it in packages dubbed "mind bender," "mood mix" and "freshman selection." It sells a "party pack" of three different strengths of extract, plus four ounces of leaves, for $207.90.



Great, Thank you salvia supply. Fuck.

I know a guy who tried the charcoal method, failed, and seemed to endorse salvia use.... I'm hoping this wasn't him.

edit: also i get the notion that salvia may induce a "life review" kind of thing, not to show you your place in the cosmos, but to show you what THIS life means..... and so yes many people lead meaningless lives, but it does not mean that HUMAN existence in the same thing...

i think he probably should have tried some of the more notable classic hallucinagens to balance out what he was getting from salvia, different drugs show different things.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (02/27/06 03:59 PM)


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OfflineKaleidoscope
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 674
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: leery11]
    #5345953 - 02/27/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

It saddens me to think things like this get blamed on such wonderful and amazing things. I really have a hard time believing that anything psychedelic in nature could be the causitive factor in someone's decision to end their life. There would have to be something else there that the psychedelics aggrevated or accelerated. Everytime I indulge in one of these mind altering substances they remind me of how unique and great life really is. They make me WANT to live, rather than just not want to die. Obviously some people should not use these things but to blame the drug for that person's actions is insane. You can't blame a chemical for your actions, you can only blame yourself. Unfortunately these days everyone wants to blame everything that happens to them on something other than their own choices or the choices of the individuals around them. It's a very sad thing when people no longer take responsibility for their own decisions or accept the decisions of those around them. It's a shame this lad decided to end his life, but to say that he is not responsible for what he did is just more propagation of the lunacy that society indulges in to make themselves feel better. This lack of personal responsibility in America these days is far more destructive than any drug.


--------------------

Purple haze, all in my brain, lately things just don't seem the same. Actin' funny but I don't know why, 'scuse me while I kiss the sky.


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Offlinelga0302
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Registered: 11/24/05
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Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: Kaleidoscope]
    #5346167 - 02/27/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

great, i like smoking salvia every now and then. oh well kiss that shit goodbye


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OfflineEquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: LSD-like herb blamed in Delaware teen's suicide [Re: lga0302]
    #5346490 - 02/27/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

lga0302 said:
great, i like smoking salvia every now and then. oh well kiss that shit goodbye




grow your own. ensure survival of this plant. If the plant has helped you... then maybe its your turn to help it...


--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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