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Offlinepostanaldrip
human alien
Male
Registered: 07/31/01
Posts: 676
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9258667 - 11/17/08 08:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

My parents arent interested in using their powers for monetary gain.


--------------------
"It's not until we've lost everything, that we're free to do anything." TDFC


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OfflineMycorRHizaL
Stranger
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Registered: 10/29/08
Posts: 34
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: postanaldrip]
    #9258925 - 11/17/08 10:53 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Shit I am.  And I will have that $Mil.
Fuck a spinning pinwheel. 
Randi's gonna shit himself when I drain him of his demon, EVEn, and smear his face with God's semen.:mushroom2:

Seeds, Randi!  Seeds.  Stones.

Placebo, Jones.

Expectancy effect

The subject-expectancy effect attributes the placebo effect to conscious or unconscious manipulation by patients in reporting improvement. Hróbjartsson and Gøtzsche argued in their article, "Most patients are polite and prone to please the investigators by reporting improvement, even when no improvement was felt."[6] Subjective bias can also be unconscious, where the patient believes he is improving as a result of the attention and care he has received.

Conditioning

Classical conditioning is a type of associative learning where the subject learns to associate a particular stimulus with a particular response. In this case the stimulant is the substance perceived as medicine but is the placebo, and the response is the relief of symptoms. It is difficult to tell the difference between conditioning and the expectancy effect when the outcome is subjective and reported by the patient. However, conditioning can result in measurable biological changes similar to the changes seen with the real treatment or drug. For example, studies showing that placebo treatments result in changes in brain function similar to the real drug are probably examples of conditioning resulting in objectively measurable results. (Sauro 2005, Wager et al. 2004)

Motivation

Motivational explanations of the placebo effect have typically considered the placebo effect to be an outcome of one’s desire to feel better, reduce anxiety, or cooperate with an experimenter or health care professional (Price et al. 1999, Margo 1999). The motivational perspective is supported by recent research showing that nonconscious goals for cooperation can be satisfied by confirming expectations about a treatment (Geers et al. 2005).

Role of endogenous opiates

The discovery in 1975 of Endogenous opiates alias endorphins (substances like opiates but naturally produced in the body) have changed matters in investing placebo effect. When patients who claimed to experience pain relief after receiving a placebo were injected with naloxone (a drug that blocks the effects of opiates), their pain returned, suggesting that the placebo effect may be partly due to psychological reaction causing release of natural opiates. (Sauro 2005)
-Wiki


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: lobotomix]
    #9259020 - 11/17/08 11:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lobotomix said:
Hello

Is anyone a reiki practitioner/master?

I was wondering if tripping on mushrooms (or acid) can have a bad influence on one's chakras,
and perhaps stop one being able to channel reiki energy.. or worse..




greetings  :heart:




I am a Master of the Absurd and can assure you that psychedelics are a boon to all your bodily functions. Especially your mind. That is unless you are unstable (which many are) Then you are better off posting in the Mystery forum and staying off all drugs including coffee.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: MycorRHizaL]
    #9259232 - 11/17/08 12:15 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I got a free reiki session, it gave me a rash. I didn't know this was a possible side effect until later.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: postanaldrip]
    #9259408 - 11/17/08 12:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting how you immediately went for TB Excuse #1. :congrats:

This from a popular Reiki website:

Reiki and Karuna Reiki® class fees

The most popular course offerings among students are: Reiki I&II  (joint), ART/Master (joint) and Karuna Reiki® Master, providing the foundation for a complete Reiki training.           

For class descriptions, click course level in box below. 

Course
Days
Required
Fee
Deposit
Review  Fee

Reiki Level I
1
 
$175.00
$100.00
$75.00

Reiki Level II
1
Reiki I
$175.00
$100.00
$75.00

Reiki l&II
2
 
$350.00
$100.00
$100.00

Advanced Reiki Training (ART)
1
Reiki I + II
$225.00
$100.00
$100.00

Reiki Master
2
Reiki I + II +  ART
$650.00
$200.00
$200.00

ART/Reiki Master
3
Reiki I + II
$875.00
$275.00
$300.00

Karuna Reiki® Master
3
Reiki Master
$875.00
$275.00
$300.00
 


--------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9259600 - 11/17/08 01:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Did you know that in a recent test between 'certified' acupuncture practioners sticking needles in volunteers and those with no clue randomly sticking needles in volunteers, both volunteer groups showed the same minor improvement. 




Do you have a link to this?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: gluke bastid]
    #9259617 - 11/17/08 01:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)



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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,406
Loc: Under the C
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: mushroom people]
    #9259683 - 11/17/08 01:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mushroom people said:
I got a free reiki session, it gave me a rash. I didn't know this was a possible side effect until later.




A rash is proof of your body expelling negative energy. :yesnod:


--------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #9259694 - 11/17/08 01:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Here's a couple:

http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/news/20070924/study-acupuncture-eases-low-back-pain

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/05/050504101520.htm




The article argues that acupuncture is effective, you just don't need a specialist.

Kind of contradicts OC's claim if acunpcture has quantifiable positive results.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: gluke bastid]
    #9259701 - 11/17/08 01:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

He said that both groups showed the same minor improvement, not that there was NO improvement.  :confused:  The fact that you can obtain a slight positive effect through randomly sticking needles into someone suggests placebo, not effectiveness of treatment.


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Offlinegluke bastid
Stinky Bum
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Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #9259790 - 11/17/08 01:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
He said that both groups showed the same minor improvement, not that there was NO improvement.  :confused:  The fact that you can obtain a slight positive effect through randomly sticking needles into someone suggests placebo, not effectiveness of treatment.




OC said the studies proved that acupuncture has a placebo effect.

I don't think that's an accurate scientific conclusion to come to, at least not based on the studies that you linked, and the people who ran the studies agreee with me.

From first study:
Quote:

"The evidence as a whole suggests that the benefits of true acupuncture over sham acupuncture are almost clinically irrelevant," Eric Manheimer, MS, of the University of Maryland Center for Integrative Medicine tells WebMD. "The reasons for this are not really clear. It may be that putting the needles anywhere stimulates some sort of analgesic effect."

Acupuncture is still considered an alternative treatment for low back pain in the U.S., but this is no longer the case in Germany. Based on findings from the newly reported study, it is now covered by state health insurance.

Endres says acupuncture is a clearly useful treatment for low back pain, even if we don't understand why.

"Just because we cannot explain exactly the mechanism by which a treatment works, doesn't mean that it doesn't work," he says





And from study #2

Quote:

"In conclusion, in our trial, acupuncture was associated with a reduction of migraine headaches compared with no treatment; however, the effects were similar to those observed with sham acupuncture and may be due to nonspecific physiological effects of needling, to a powerful placebo effect, or to a combination of both," the authors write.




Anyone without an agenda to prove would come to the same conclusion. It may be placebo or there may be benefits to acupuncture that are available to anyone with a set of clean needles, or it may be a combination of both. Had the studies tested acupuncture against other proven placebos, it would be a different story. But as it stands, the jury is still out.

Plus migraines and lower back pain are very different physical problems. I'd be curious to see acupuncture tested against blood sugar levels in diabetics.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: gluke bastid]
    #9259814 - 11/17/08 02:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Acupuncture does not claim that just any old puncturing with needles will have an effect, it involves a complex system of meridiens which must be specifically stimulated by a skilled practitioner in order to achieve an effect.  If anyone can poke needles into any body part & achieve a SLIGHT positive effect compared to no treatment, this strongly suggests placebo.

BTW, there is no way to prove placebo. :grin:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Registered: 12/21/00
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Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #9259900 - 11/17/08 02:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
If anyone can poke needles into any body part & achieve a SLIGHT positive effect compared to no treatment, this strongly suggests placebo.




On the contrary...if repeated needling results in a significant decrease in pain in the majority of patients(as reported in study #1), it suggests that there may be something to acupuncture. The only thing that has been proven is that all of the claims made by specialised practioners are false.

Stick needles in people with lower back pain and their muscle pain decreases. I don't understand why you're failing to see this.

I'm no proponent of acupuncture, its effectiveness seems quite possibly placebo and I don't care about it to begin with...but it seems to me like you and OC are ignoring the facts in favor of your scepticism.

Quote:

BTW, there is no way to prove placebo. :grin:


How's that? Sugar tablets are a placebo.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: gluke bastid]
    #9259926 - 11/17/08 02:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, it does not support the effectiveness of acupuncture, it suggests an effect caused by random needling.  As it was not compared to a placebo, we cannot ascertain whether the effect is statistically significant.  :shrug:

In the lower back pain study, the "control" group was given traditional treatments which they had likely already tried without success.  (Chronic lower back pain is quite unique in that it responds inconsistently to pain-killers and other standard treatment methods).  It may be that the novelty of the sham and "true" needling techniques stimulated a powerful placebo effect, resulting in the reported 33% improvement in the experience of pain.

Sugar pills are used to stimulate the placebo effect, and can create results which strongly suggest placebo, but do not PROVE placebo.  It's a scientific distinction which may seem trivial, but it actually quite important.  Proof is simply too strong a term for complex interactions such as human biochemistry.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #9259990 - 11/17/08 02:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
No, it does not support the effectiveness of acupuncture, it suggests an effect caused by random needling.  As it was not compared to a placebo, we cannot ascertain whether the effect is statistically significant.  :shrug:




Agreed


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #9259996 - 11/17/08 02:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think more importantly that proof is impossible in science as a whole--what we can confidently say is that the placebo effect, at least in certain situations, has not been disproven yet.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: deCypher]
    #9260008 - 11/17/08 02:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

IMO, the placebo effect is the most interesting scientific discovery yet. :grin:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #9260014 - 11/17/08 02:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I completely agree... why does pure belief in a treatment's efficacy make it more effective?

There are some intriguing ties between it and hypnosis' ability to lessen the perception of pain, even though the pain is still there.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: deCypher]
    #9260022 - 11/17/08 02:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I learned a great deal about altering pain perception through attitude & expectation in my prepared childbirth classes.  It's truly amazing!  I've utilized the same techniques to deal with other sources of pain, and have taught my children to do the same.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Kundalini Reiki and Tripping [Re: Veritas]
    #9260030 - 11/17/08 02:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Any tips you'd like to share?

(Not for childbirth, obviously... :tongue:)


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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