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OfflinerDr4g0n
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rhizo vs tomentose growth
    #5337216 - 02/25/06 06:37 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

ok i have lots of questions!!!

1) what is the fluffy growth called? i saw it on another post and cant remember what its called! - TOMENTOSE!! thanks hyphae!

2) what causes rhizomorphic rather than tomentose, and vice versa?

2.5) what EXACTLY is rhizo and tomentose (besides myc.. duhh)?

3) what are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

4) does rhizo turn straight into knots or pins?

i have a bunch of rhizo growth that popped through the top layer of a casing, but it hasnt done anything else for the past 3 days.... how long should it be?

and ill probably have more as i remember them.. but please post a freakin dissertation on mycelial growth!


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i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)

Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 01:17 PM)

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337261 - 02/25/06 07:18 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

1. Tomentose
2. Diversity
3. Rhizo's are simply tighter woven hyphae strands
4. No
Read my pinning strategy to see if your casing is ready for the fruiting chamber (FC). GL


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
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"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5337276 - 02/25/06 07:31 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

i used your tek to do what im doing. theyve been sitting in the fc for bout 3 days already, but i didnt see any timeframe in your tek that i could use to estimate when i should expect knotting and pinning.

also could you clarify the answer to number 2?


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My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)

Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 07:32 AM)

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337286 - 02/25/06 07:46 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

It can take up to 2 weeks for pins to develop.
Diversity is the presence of a wide range of variation in the qualities or attributes under discussion. Again I'll reiterate Patience is a Virtue especially in this hobby! It's hard but well worth it! Again GL


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5337298 - 02/25/06 08:02 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

i have great patience... i just didnt know that i could take up to 2 weeks. there arent really any good charts with estimated times for each phase of growth.

i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist? what causes one to appear and not the other? do i HAVE to have tomentose to pin? everyone says rhizo is good strong growth, but why?

i just want to compleelty understand what im looking at in my fc.


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i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)

Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 08:03 AM)

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Offline_OttO_
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337327 - 02/25/06 08:15 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist?





Why are the trees green? Just 'cause they are.

Why does Bio-deverstiy exist? So plants and animals can find various benefial or detrimental variations that causes them to either die off, or evolve into more successful species. Survival of the fittest etc. etc.

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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: _OttO_]
    #5337453 - 02/25/06 09:33 AM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

_OttO_ said:
Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist?





Why are the trees green? Just 'cause they are.

Why does Bio-deverstiy exist? So plants and animals can find various benefial or detrimental variations that causes them to either die off, or evolve into more successful species. Survival of the fittest etc. etc.




im sure you know this, but it demonstrates my point. trees are green because of chlorophyl. chlorophyl is used to convert sunlight into usable energy. there is a science and an explanation behind it, just as there is behind myc, and id like to know it.
a theory i haveis that perhaps rhizo exists to stretch the mycelial network through a large, perhaps not optimal substrate quickly. it looks like roots, and does grow pretty fast. it doesnt seem to care about it substrate either. tomantose on the other hand, seems like it grow directly on the substrate; relying on the substrate. it seems like tomantose is the phase of mycelial growth that leads to knotting and finally pinning. but does myc go through phases?

as you said "various beneficial and detrimental variations". what makes rhizo and tomantose beneficial or detrimental? i understand that they must serve 2 purposes, and must have evolved for survival, but what are those purposes? why did they evolve?

i dont want to seem annoying at all, but this place is DEFINATLY the best place to find this info. I LOVE the shroomery community and i know there are more people like me here who would like to (or already) know more about growing than whats just immediatly obvious (ie too much moisture, or too little)


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i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)

Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 09:34 AM)

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337925 - 02/25/06 12:54 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Why do people have different skin colors or hair colors? Tomentose growth has been linked to exploded exposed kernals where starches are more readily available. Rhizo pin much more abundantly than tomentose BTW. If you are serious about this hobby then you owe it to yourself to pick up a copy of TMC (The Mushroom Cultivator) By Paul Stamets and J.S. Chilton this is the home mycologists bible! Over the years I've read mine cover to cover well over a hundred times as well as every other available mushroom growing book and magazine article I could lay my hands on! Now between that and the internet time is our only limiting factor. GL

P.S. your not annoying your just thirsting for knowledge! Using Google should be one of your first steps, as there are really no quick answers because they just lead to more questions know what I'm sayin? :wink:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5337951 - 02/25/06 01:06 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
P.S. your not annoying your just thirsting for knowledge! Using Google should be one of your first steps, as there are really no quick answers because they just lead to more questions know what I'm sayin? :wink:




i know exactly what you mean. i often search for answers and only find more questions. thanks for pointing me in the right direction. if anyone else has any info he/she would like to add, please do.

on my particular casing, i have a TON of rhizos sticking up out of the casing. they were super pretty and fluffy and stuck straight up, but now theyre kinda sagging down a bit. if they were to turn into pins, it would be a gorgeous pinset. anyways im hoping to see em pinning soon!


i have a poo jar i made that has both STRONG rhizo (almost like roots) and strong tomentose growth. heres the rhizo growth.


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My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)

Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 01:10 PM)

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337992 - 02/25/06 01:21 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

The rhizos don't turn into pins as I'm sure you already understand, follow my pinning strategy closely and you will have pins in no time! BTW by "no time" I'm not say immediately as of right now here today as we speak etc; LOL Just given ya shit bro! GL and looking good!!! :thumbup:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5338049 - 02/25/06 01:43 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

i want pins NOW lol


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5338068 - 02/25/06 01:53 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i want pins NOW lol



Me to bro me to. :grin:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Offline_OttO_
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5338279 - 02/25/06 03:16 PM (18 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
Quote:

_OttO_ said:
Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist?





Why are the trees green? Just 'cause they are.

Why does Bio-deverstiy exist? So plants and animals can find various benefial or detrimental variations that causes them to either die off, or evolve into more successful species. Survival of the fittest etc. etc.




im sure you know this, but it demonstrates my point. trees are green because of chlorophyl. chlorophyl is used to convert sunlight into usable energy. there is a science and an explanation behind it, just as there is behind myc, and id like to know it.




But can you explain to me why chlorophyl is green and not blue or orange or red?

Thats the point I was trying to make - there really is no answer to this question....

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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: _OttO_]
    #5344336 - 02/27/06 07:10 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

i know what youre saying otto, but i really think there is a science and reason behind the two growths, and not just a random something like hair color or eye color.

ive been observing my growth recently (wbs spawned to poo in jars). it seems as though rhizo growth is like mushroom "roots" that reach out and expand the mycelial network. the rhizo growth doesnt actually grow ON the substrate, it grows through it. It then throws off tomantose. tomantose uses the nutrients in the substrate to grow, and eventually pin.

since rhizo doesnt use the substrates nutes, it must be using its own stored energy. thus, if you see rhizo, you know your myc is strong.

can anyone else confirm similar observations?


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i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)

Edited by rDr4g0n (02/27/06 07:13 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5344420 - 02/27/06 07:59 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

The growing information in "The Mushroom Cultivator" is somewhat dated, but the science is right on. I recommend that book for anyone interested in mycology. Devour every page, and read the book five times at least. I'd say 90% of the questions asked in this forum, including this thread, are answered in that book.
RR


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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5344956 - 02/27/06 11:34 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

im doing a bit of internet research on the subject. it does appear that one of the rhizo's purposes is to extend the mycelial networks reach.

from http://www.uoguelph.ca/~gbarron/MISC2004/rhizomor.htm
"Rhizomorphs are bundles of hundreds or thousdnds of hyphae encase in a pseudoparenchymatous sheath that function to transport large amounts of water and nutrients relastively large distances (microbiologically). This allows the fungus to use the energy to attack new sites for parasitic attack or wood decay or for repid growth and enlargement of fruitbodies."

this seems to indicate to me that rhizo growth would appear because the myc arent getting enough nutes from a substrate and are attempting to find nutes elswhere. on pf cakes, its pretty easy to see the growth moving radially from the injection point. that growth appears rhizomorphic, but i think its merely tomentose that is growing in a straight line (radiating from the inoculation site). also, in my experience (one grow lol), that myc is fluffy, which is a trait of tomentose growth. in fact tomentose is defined as "covered with short dense hairs." also, rhizo growth is also "encase[d] in a pseudoparenchymatous sheath," which usually isnt the case with the radial growth coming from the injection sites in pf jars.

so when a casing layer is placed on top of a colonized substrate, do the myc get curious and poke rhizos through the top hoping to find some more food? in my case, thats what seems to have happened.


please post thoughts or comments!


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5345013 - 02/27/06 11:56 AM (18 years, 24 days ago)

ok im really excited about all this new and awesome knowledge, so bear with me here. i found another site that confirms my initial hypothesis about the function of rhyzo growth.

http://www.anbg.gov.au/fungi/mycelium.html

rhizo are "explatory" tools for the myc. they do in fact seek out nutes. so, if youre see a lot of rhizo, that means that perhaps your myc arent satisfied with their substrate, or have exhausted its nutrition.

apparently as myc grows, the "inner" portions of its growth radius become useless, so it cannibalizes it! i dont recall having seen this in my experience, but this is waht explains mushrooms that grow in "fairy rings." near the outside of the radial growth is often the strongest, and thus fruits.

NOW what this leads me to believe, is that, increasing the number of injection sites will allow the expanding myc networks to meet more quickly, and mate. this would have 2 advantages. first, there will be less space between injection sites which means those sites themselves will run less of a risk of being cannabalizes or wasted. second, when the myc meet and mate, they will produce fruit. if the number of sites where they meet increase, that should increase the yield.

am i way off on this? please discuss!


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5345083 - 02/27/06 12:24 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

ok now im confused... apparently tomentose indicates a weak strain...

"Sectors are common in mushroom culture and although little is known as to their cause or function, it is clear that genetics, nutrition and age of the mycelium play important roles"

so this points me in the direction of cloning and genetics... pretty big field, but i guess this answers my question.

also:

"Rhizomorphic mycelia run faster, form more primordia and in the final analysis yield more mushrooms than cottony mycelia. One example of this is illustrated in Fig. 37. A single wedge of mycelium was transferred to a petri dish and two distinct mycelial types grew from it. The stringy sector formed abundant primordia while the cottony sector did not, an event common in agar culture."

this indicates that rhizos do form pins... and form em better.


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i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)

Edited by rDr4g0n (02/27/06 12:33 PM)

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5346453 - 02/27/06 06:14 PM (18 years, 24 days ago)

Rhizo or tomentose they both can form pins and it has little to do with lack of nutes. Myc will sector when placed on nutrient rich agar. Certain strains produce rhizo's much more easily than others. Bottom line multispore streaks on agar or in the PFTek can produce either and by picking a rhizo sector your giving yourself better odds at a prolific fruiter.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5348425 - 02/28/06 07:05 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

yeah i was reading about sectoring and trying to get a good strain from it. i undersatnd how you should grow, and choose the best, and grow it, and choose the best of that, and grow that until you have a strong strain of myc, but does doing that make a big difference? do it make faster growing, more fruit, more potent?

also i got pins! first flush in a few days it appears!

oh yeah and i have 3 poo jars, and one went bad. stunk up my whole incubator...


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Re: why is chlorophyll green? [Re: _OttO_] * 1
    #5348478 - 02/28/06 07:48 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

chlorophyll is green because it is not green
the reason it appears green to silly humans is because it is comprised of material that absorbs all colors except green
it reflects green light because it cant absorb green light
it cant absorb green light because it is not green

we see it as green because the cones in our eyes that perceive color
work that way, they respond to what is missing in the electromagnetic spectrum that is presented to them not to what is there
as with all our perceptions reality is actually beyond our immediate grasp and must be reasoned

Edited by noxy (02/28/06 08:34 AM)

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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: why is chlorophyll green? [Re: noxy]
    #5348812 - 02/28/06 10:35 AM (18 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

noxy said:
chlorophyll is green because it is not green
the reason it appears green to silly humans is because it is comprised of material that absorbs all colors except green
it reflects green light because it cant absorb green light
it cant absorb green light because it is not green

we see it as green because the cones in our eyes that perceive color
work that way, they respond to what is missing in the electromagnetic spectrum that is presented to them not to what is there
as with all our perceptions reality is actually beyond our immediate grasp and must be reasoned




lol thanks?


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Re: why is chlorophyll green? [Re: noxy]
    #9778229 - 02/11/09 01:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

noxy said:
it reflects green light because it cant absorb green light
it cant absorb green light because it is not green




I see fallacy here. We perceive whatever color (or combination of color) light is reflected into our eyes. An object that is blue will reflect ONLY blue light and maybe some other colors making that specific shade/tint of blue, while absorbing all other colors.

Therefore, chlorophyll must be green as it reflects green light.


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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #9778455 - 02/11/09 02:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
yeah i was reading about sectoring and trying to get a good strain from it. i undersatnd how you should grow, and choose the best, and grow it, and choose the best of that, and grow that until you have a strong strain of myc, but does doing that make a big difference? do it make faster growing, more fruit, more potent?

also i got pins! first flush in a few days it appears!

oh yeah and i have 3 poo jars, and one went bad. stunk up my whole incubator...


If someone is making transfers on agar, they are most likely tring to isolate a substrain.(single mating)or(mono culture). If you transfer the fast growing rhizo growth each transfer: sooner or later you will get growth that grows in all directions fairly evenly with no sectoring all rhizomorphic. This is an isolated substrain. You have just reduced all other genetic variation of multispore. Most people try to get about five or six isolates and grow them out in test batches to test which monocultures fruit well and have the traits you desire. Potent ect.. So yes once you have tested isolates: keep the good cultures in long term storage such as master slants: you can grow the isolates out any time you see fit and you will know exactly how the fruits will come out because you reduced all other variation.


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Re: why is chlorophyll green? [Re: littleapplemm]
    #9778504 - 02/11/09 02:16 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

chlorophyll surrounds a photocenter, where a series of redox reactions cause an electron flow and force flow of H+ ions into another series of chemical reactions related to production of ATP. Chlorophyll's job in all of this is to absorb light in the red and blue spectrum and use resonance energy transfer to transfer the light energy down to the photocenter in the form of vibrational kinetic energy. The reason that it is green is that light in the green wavelength cannot be used and in this case the wavelength is detrimental to the resonance energy transfer, attempting to cancel out the vibrations caused by absorption of red and blue light.


and it sounds to me like rhizomorphic growth is better simply because the root-like hyphae bundles are able to transfer nutes and water from anywhere on the colonized substrate to where its really needed, which is the fruiting surface...thus more pins can be supported.

Also dont pins start out as bundled up mycelium? seems to me like pre-bundled rhizomorphic mycelium would pin better and faster than non-bundled tomentose mycelium. Just a thought...

hope this helps...
agmotes165


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Re: why is chlorophyll green? [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #9778568 - 02/11/09 02:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

By transfering rhizomorphic cultures: you are choosing the fastest growing mycelium, thus your culture has reduced genetics towards fast colinization. Fast colonization is prefered in the race to colonize the substrate before contamination can get a foot hold. Even if you dont isolate a substrain you are transfering away from weak growing substrains.


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Re: why is chlorophyll green? [Re: noxy]
    #24645002 - 09/19/17 08:27 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

yep!!!

chemistry and physics.  the way light waves travel, frequencies, and chemical structures that absorb or reflect light of those frequencies, etc.

it is really in depth but there is an easy explanation and reason that doesn't include magic or the "unexplained" why are siblings different??  Science easily explains that as well, DNA etc.

There is a reason and an explanation for everything under the sun and science can explain it all if you have the resources to do the research.  Chemistry and physics will eventually answer the age old question of what is the meaning of 42


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