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OfflinerDr4g0n
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rhizo vs tomentose growth
    #5337216 - 02/25/06 06:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ok i have lots of questions!!!

1) what is the fluffy growth called? i saw it on another post and cant remember what its called! - TOMENTOSE!! thanks hyphae!

2) what causes rhizomorphic rather than tomentose, and vice versa?

2.5) what EXACTLY is rhizo and tomentose (besides myc.. duhh)?

3) what are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

4) does rhizo turn straight into knots or pins?

i have a bunch of rhizo growth that popped through the top layer of a casing, but it hasnt done anything else for the past 3 days.... how long should it be?

and ill probably have more as i remember them.. but please post a freakin dissertation on mycelial growth!


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i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 01:17 PM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337261 - 02/25/06 07:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

1. Tomentose
2. Diversity
3. Rhizo's are simply tighter woven hyphae strands
4. No
Read my pinning strategy to see if your casing is ready for the fruiting chamber (FC). GL


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5337276 - 02/25/06 07:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i used your tek to do what im doing. theyve been sitting in the fc for bout 3 days already, but i didnt see any timeframe in your tek that i could use to estimate when i should expect knotting and pinning.

also could you clarify the answer to number 2?


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 07:32 AM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337286 - 02/25/06 07:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It can take up to 2 weeks for pins to develop.
Diversity is the presence of a wide range of variation in the qualities or attributes under discussion. Again I'll reiterate Patience is a Virtue especially in this hobby! It's hard but well worth it! Again GL


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5337298 - 02/25/06 08:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i have great patience... i just didnt know that i could take up to 2 weeks. there arent really any good charts with estimated times for each phase of growth.

i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist? what causes one to appear and not the other? do i HAVE to have tomentose to pin? everyone says rhizo is good strong growth, but why?

i just want to compleelty understand what im looking at in my fc.


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 08:03 AM)


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Offline_OttO_
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337327 - 02/25/06 08:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist?





Why are the trees green? Just 'cause they are.

Why does Bio-deverstiy exist? So plants and animals can find various benefial or detrimental variations that causes them to either die off, or evolve into more successful species. Survival of the fittest etc. etc.


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: _OttO_]
    #5337453 - 02/25/06 09:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

_OttO_ said:
Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist?





Why are the trees green? Just 'cause they are.

Why does Bio-deverstiy exist? So plants and animals can find various benefial or detrimental variations that causes them to either die off, or evolve into more successful species. Survival of the fittest etc. etc.




im sure you know this, but it demonstrates my point. trees are green because of chlorophyl. chlorophyl is used to convert sunlight into usable energy. there is a science and an explanation behind it, just as there is behind myc, and id like to know it.
a theory i haveis that perhaps rhizo exists to stretch the mycelial network through a large, perhaps not optimal substrate quickly. it looks like roots, and does grow pretty fast. it doesnt seem to care about it substrate either. tomantose on the other hand, seems like it grow directly on the substrate; relying on the substrate. it seems like tomantose is the phase of mycelial growth that leads to knotting and finally pinning. but does myc go through phases?

as you said "various beneficial and detrimental variations". what makes rhizo and tomantose beneficial or detrimental? i understand that they must serve 2 purposes, and must have evolved for survival, but what are those purposes? why did they evolve?

i dont want to seem annoying at all, but this place is DEFINATLY the best place to find this info. I LOVE the shroomery community and i know there are more people like me here who would like to (or already) know more about growing than whats just immediatly obvious (ie too much moisture, or too little)


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 09:34 AM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337925 - 02/25/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Why do people have different skin colors or hair colors? Tomentose growth has been linked to exploded exposed kernals where starches are more readily available. Rhizo pin much more abundantly than tomentose BTW. If you are serious about this hobby then you owe it to yourself to pick up a copy of TMC (The Mushroom Cultivator) By Paul Stamets and J.S. Chilton this is the home mycologists bible! Over the years I've read mine cover to cover well over a hundred times as well as every other available mushroom growing book and magazine article I could lay my hands on! Now between that and the internet time is our only limiting factor. GL

P.S. your not annoying your just thirsting for knowledge! Using Google should be one of your first steps, as there are really no quick answers because they just lead to more questions know what I'm sayin? :wink:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5337951 - 02/25/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
P.S. your not annoying your just thirsting for knowledge! Using Google should be one of your first steps, as there are really no quick answers because they just lead to more questions know what I'm sayin? :wink:




i know exactly what you mean. i often search for answers and only find more questions. thanks for pointing me in the right direction. if anyone else has any info he/she would like to add, please do.

on my particular casing, i have a TON of rhizos sticking up out of the casing. they were super pretty and fluffy and stuck straight up, but now theyre kinda sagging down a bit. if they were to turn into pins, it would be a gorgeous pinset. anyways im hoping to see em pinning soon!


i have a poo jar i made that has both STRONG rhizo (almost like roots) and strong tomentose growth. heres the rhizo growth.


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


Edited by rDr4g0n (02/25/06 01:10 PM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5337992 - 02/25/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The rhizos don't turn into pins as I'm sure you already understand, follow my pinning strategy closely and you will have pins in no time! BTW by "no time" I'm not say immediately as of right now here today as we speak etc; LOL Just given ya shit bro! GL and looking good!!! :thumbup:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5338049 - 02/25/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i want pins NOW lol


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5338068 - 02/25/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i want pins NOW lol



Me to bro me to. :grin:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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Offline_OttO_
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5338279 - 02/25/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
Quote:

_OttO_ said:
Quote:

rDr4g0n said:
i understand the there is diversity in myc, but what causes rhizo vs tomentose. why do the 2 types of growth even exist?





Why are the trees green? Just 'cause they are.

Why does Bio-deverstiy exist? So plants and animals can find various benefial or detrimental variations that causes them to either die off, or evolve into more successful species. Survival of the fittest etc. etc.




im sure you know this, but it demonstrates my point. trees are green because of chlorophyl. chlorophyl is used to convert sunlight into usable energy. there is a science and an explanation behind it, just as there is behind myc, and id like to know it.




But can you explain to me why chlorophyl is green and not blue or orange or red?

Thats the point I was trying to make - there really is no answer to this question....


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: _OttO_]
    #5344336 - 02/27/06 07:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

i know what youre saying otto, but i really think there is a science and reason behind the two growths, and not just a random something like hair color or eye color.

ive been observing my growth recently (wbs spawned to poo in jars). it seems as though rhizo growth is like mushroom "roots" that reach out and expand the mycelial network. the rhizo growth doesnt actually grow ON the substrate, it grows through it. It then throws off tomantose. tomantose uses the nutrients in the substrate to grow, and eventually pin.

since rhizo doesnt use the substrates nutes, it must be using its own stored energy. thus, if you see rhizo, you know your myc is strong.

can anyone else confirm similar observations?


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


Edited by rDr4g0n (02/27/06 07:13 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5344420 - 02/27/06 07:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The growing information in "The Mushroom Cultivator" is somewhat dated, but the science is right on. I recommend that book for anyone interested in mycology. Devour every page, and read the book five times at least. I'd say 90% of the questions asked in this forum, including this thread, are answered in that book.
RR


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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5344956 - 02/27/06 11:34 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

im doing a bit of internet research on the subject. it does appear that one of the rhizo's purposes is to extend the mycelial networks reach.

from http://www.uoguelph.ca/~gbarron/MISC2004/rhizomor.htm
"Rhizomorphs are bundles of hundreds or thousdnds of hyphae encase in a pseudoparenchymatous sheath that function to transport large amounts of water and nutrients relastively large distances (microbiologically). This allows the fungus to use the energy to attack new sites for parasitic attack or wood decay or for repid growth and enlargement of fruitbodies."

this seems to indicate to me that rhizo growth would appear because the myc arent getting enough nutes from a substrate and are attempting to find nutes elswhere. on pf cakes, its pretty easy to see the growth moving radially from the injection point. that growth appears rhizomorphic, but i think its merely tomentose that is growing in a straight line (radiating from the inoculation site). also, in my experience (one grow lol), that myc is fluffy, which is a trait of tomentose growth. in fact tomentose is defined as "covered with short dense hairs." also, rhizo growth is also "encase[d] in a pseudoparenchymatous sheath," which usually isnt the case with the radial growth coming from the injection sites in pf jars.

so when a casing layer is placed on top of a colonized substrate, do the myc get curious and poke rhizos through the top hoping to find some more food? in my case, thats what seems to have happened.


please post thoughts or comments!


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5345013 - 02/27/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ok im really excited about all this new and awesome knowledge, so bear with me here. i found another site that confirms my initial hypothesis about the function of rhyzo growth.

http://www.anbg.gov.au/fungi/mycelium.html

rhizo are "explatory" tools for the myc. they do in fact seek out nutes. so, if youre see a lot of rhizo, that means that perhaps your myc arent satisfied with their substrate, or have exhausted its nutrition.

apparently as myc grows, the "inner" portions of its growth radius become useless, so it cannibalizes it! i dont recall having seen this in my experience, but this is waht explains mushrooms that grow in "fairy rings." near the outside of the radial growth is often the strongest, and thus fruits.

NOW what this leads me to believe, is that, increasing the number of injection sites will allow the expanding myc networks to meet more quickly, and mate. this would have 2 advantages. first, there will be less space between injection sites which means those sites themselves will run less of a risk of being cannabalizes or wasted. second, when the myc meet and mate, they will produce fruit. if the number of sites where they meet increase, that should increase the yield.

am i way off on this? please discuss!


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5345083 - 02/27/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ok now im confused... apparently tomentose indicates a weak strain...

"Sectors are common in mushroom culture and although little is known as to their cause or function, it is clear that genetics, nutrition and age of the mycelium play important roles"

so this points me in the direction of cloning and genetics... pretty big field, but i guess this answers my question.

also:

"Rhizomorphic mycelia run faster, form more primordia and in the final analysis yield more mushrooms than cottony mycelia. One example of this is illustrated in Fig. 37. A single wedge of mycelium was transferred to a petri dish and two distinct mycelial types grew from it. The stringy sector formed abundant primordia while the cottony sector did not, an event common in agar culture."

this indicates that rhizos do form pins... and form em better.


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


Edited by rDr4g0n (02/27/06 12:33 PM)


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: rDr4g0n]
    #5346453 - 02/27/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Rhizo or tomentose they both can form pins and it has little to do with lack of nutes. Myc will sector when placed on nutrient rich agar. Certain strains produce rhizo's much more easily than others. Bottom line multispore streaks on agar or in the PFTek can produce either and by picking a rhizo sector your giving yourself better odds at a prolific fruiter.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflinerDr4g0n
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Re: rhizo vs the fluffy growth [Re: hyphae]
    #5348425 - 02/28/06 07:05 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

yeah i was reading about sectoring and trying to get a good strain from it. i undersatnd how you should grow, and choose the best, and grow it, and choose the best of that, and grow that until you have a strong strain of myc, but does doing that make a big difference? do it make faster growing, more fruit, more potent?

also i got pins! first flush in a few days it appears!

oh yeah and i have 3 poo jars, and one went bad. stunk up my whole incubator...


--------------------
i can speel... im just too lazy to sppelcheck.

My first trip (good read) - Speed Leaching Poo! - My Second Trip (with art)


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