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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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Alright, say Jesus was the real deal..
#5335145 - 02/24/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Even though Jesus may have been the Son of God, it seems quite clear that the writings and interpretations of the time were quite distorted (Constantine comes to mind). My question is not to debate the validity of Christ, but to ask, if one were to want to read the Bible would it not be 'distorted' as well. Is there any point in reading the Bible if one believes that this is not actually God's word?
Basically, which version of the Bible is thought to be the most accurate?
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blaze2
The Witness


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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: WScott]
#5335187 - 02/24/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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everything is pretty much translated the early greek. I read the King James, even though most people admit it is probrobly the worst "translation".
Yes there is a point in reading the bible. First off it wasnt written by God, and then mistranslated by men. It was written by men, then mistranslated by men. So from the start technicly you cant trust it.
Second though and most important is that once you read it(even all fucked up like it is) its still Good. They mostly mistranslated things to either add drama, and spectacle, or be politically correct. THis is annoying, but it far from destroys teh bibles message. The stories are good, the morals are good. Its all good man. Take everything with a grain of salt man. God is in your heart anyways(yea I know thats cliche, but true), and the bible is just a way to find him.
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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budsicle
s?igh?tsee?r

Registered: 04/19/05
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: WScott]
#5335195 - 02/24/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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if you believe bible is actually gods word, theres no point in living and you should cap yourself immediately in the head with a pistol
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Springs
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: budsicle]
#5335299 - 02/24/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I believe words in the bible are gods just like I believe the words anyone writes are gods
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: WScott]
#5335438 - 02/24/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The Pastoral letters attributed to Paul are recognized forgeries. Their purpose was to make it appear that Paul was against the early Gnostic Christians, and espousing a Roman Church Literalism. I have studied the Bible in and out of a reputable Christian seminary for 30 years, and after reading today's scholars, namely John Shelby Spong and Freke & Gandy, I am more convinced of the absolute immensity of two thousand years of deception.
- Son of God is not a title unique to Jesus of Nazareth, it referred to all Kings anointed by God (Divine Right of Kingship). - There is no real historical evidence of a historical Jesus. Albert Schweitzer came to that conclusion in his The Quest for the Historical Jesus that started the entire trend at the tern of the 19th century. Paul never spoke about a historical Jesus, only the Resurrected Christ, and the Gospel narratives which came up with different pseudo-biographies, and which were placed in the Bible to make it look like there were 4 eyewitness (howsoever conflicting) accounts, were later public relations pieces for the Roman Church which was pushing historical Literalism.
- The Bible was composed of 'some' books while the majority of others were burned!!! Do you have any idea about the agenda of those people like Irenaeus or Eusebius who constructed the Bible?! Thank God some monk buried the books at Nag Hammadi so we can see much of what what kept from humanity! Completely different versions of the Jesus myth before it became falsely historicized - before the inner mysteries were removed and only the outer mysteries taught. For a long time non-clergy could have been put to death for possessing even the Bible that the Church used, lest they discern what was left of the inner mysteries from Paul's genuine letters. NO they are not the Word of God, they are the words of men, and anything else is simple idolatry. Of course scriptural books are worth reading but not just the 'Bible.' One also requires background and guidance.
But this is just my Gnostic opinion - one that I believe is closer to the original Christian mentality before the Roman Church created the Big Lie (which later Protestantism continued).
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5335698 - 02/24/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mark I'm real interested in gnosticism, it seems to me the Jesus concept "works" but not the way everyone thinks.
Like just today it ocurred to me he's an example for us to just accept all of our karma (via the suffering "he" endured symbollically on the cross specifically) and therefore to cleanse and purify ourselves through accepting the suffering of the world and not attaching to or rejecting it.
and it seems to me the "second coming" is that of which MEN attain christ consciousness, the second coming = the attainment of christ consciousness by many or perhaps eventually everyone.
I dunno. It just seems like you're supposed to model your life after him, but he isn't supposed to be a deity or necessarily even a person.
oh yeah.... do you have any basic links that explain what the gnostics believe?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (02/24/06 06:19 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: leery11]
#5335767 - 02/24/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The Jesus Mysteries describes the true history of Christianity, Jesus and the Lost Goddess describes the true meaning of Christianity, and The Laughing Jesus describes Christian Gnosis. The authors footnote and reference their works extensively. These are recent publications, they are enjoyable to read as well as being scholarly. I've become a big fan of these guys. Your own perceptions about the allegorical nature of the Christian mythos comes close to their's, btw, but it goes deeper than allegory. I would read them in the order that I listed them. You can't go wrong.
Peace.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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beavis190
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5335790 - 02/24/06 07:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i think the bible is just guild lines on how to live ur life. i dont really believe in god bcuz i dont think he created heaven/hell earth and the universe.in my opinion when u die u are either reincarnated or ur just dead and its over and ur body will replenish the earth and will feed animals to keep the cycle of life ongoing.
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Silversoul
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5335941 - 02/24/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have read Jesus and the Lost Goddess, and while I think it contains beautiful theological and christological wisdom, I have to say I'm quite skeptical of some of their historical claims(and apparently I'm far from alone in this). Freke and Gandy's support for "the Jesus myth"(that Jesus was not a historical figure, but merely a mythological hero) runs counter to the vast majority of scholars. Their account of early Christianity is extremely one-sided, and seems cherry-picked to support their views as being the same of all the first Christians, despite the incredible diversity of Christianity even early on.
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fivepointer
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: Silversoul]
#5335943 - 02/24/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Even though Jesus may have been the Son of God, it seems quite clear that the writings and interpretations of the time were quite distorted (Constantine comes to mind). My question is not to debate the validity of Christ, but to ask, if one were to want to read the Bible would it not be 'distorted' as well.
God has providentially preserved His Word, nothing is distorted. Not one molecule in this universe moves outside of God's will and purpose.
Is there any point in reading the Bible if one believes that this is not actually God's word?
Whether or not you believe it, it is indeed God's Word, and you should believe what it says. If you read it you just might start to actually believe what it claims, that it is the Word of God. If this should happen it is only because it has been revealed to you from above, as a result of His grace.
Basically, which version of the Bible is thought to be the most accurate?
I use the KJV. While no translation is perfect, the KJV is the least worst of any "modern" translation.
If you want to see the underlying Greek and Hebrew you can use free software programs like OnlineBible, which is free. You can search by Greek or Hebrew words or phrases, and english as well. You can check the translators.
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beavis190
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: fivepointer]
#5336181 - 02/24/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>God has providentially preserved His Word, nothing is distorted. Not one molecule in this universe moves outside of God's will and purpose. <
some how i find this hard to believe that one entity can control an endless universe that cannot even be fathomed by our minds. there is always a boundary on the human mind.gods will is to have ppl suffer and bomb each other??spread aids and disease?(population control)? i dont mean to dis ur beliefs or anything its just that i dont believe one person/entity can control the universe.the bible was written b4 anyone even knew there were other Galaxy's.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: Silversoul]
#5336349 - 02/24/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I do not hold every opinion as a fact, but rather I [bracket] all claims after the manner of a phenomenologist. I do not 'know' if the Man walked the Earth or not. That is a matter of conjecture or faith. I welcome alternate points of view and reject wholesale any absolutist claims to knowledge of historical existence because there is no evidence. Again, it becomes a matter of faith and/or wishful thinking/fantasy. I further reject all Literalist mentality, and regardless, choose to refer to myself as a Christian, after the manner of Gnostic Christians as described by Freke & Gandy. I take issue with the authors, but usually on small points like defining the term "magus" as in the character Simon Magus, as a "sage" rather than a 'mage.' A mage, magus (or magi, as in the three wise men of Christmas drama) were 'magicians,' not merely sages, and their practices were different even if only 'Persian astrologers.'
The fictitious letters called the Pastorals, forged to make Paul look like he was taking an anti-Gnostic perspective is evident if one has been reading the Bible and notices that there is an egalitarian Paul and a misogynistic, Literalist, opinionated Paul. The only other logical conclusion was that the man's 'thorn in his side' was Dissociative Disorder (formerly, Multiple Personality Disorder). Fundamentalists like to quote that people who don't confess that Jesus Christ has come 'in the flesh' are of the spirit of 'the anti-Christ,' but of course, that is the Literalist agenda - the historical/physical - just like a physical reanimation of buried/burned bodies at a Resurrection at the end of time. That people are unable to see the allegorical and symbolic implications of all this is disturbing to say the least, but the reigns of terror that have enforced this unbelievable madness makes it all very serious business.
It is pretty clear that the parallels between allegorical Old Testament and New Testament are there. John Shelby Spong has been a Godsend in illustrating just how the New Testament material was collated and constructed from the Old Testament (canonical Bible inclusions), NOT the miraculous fulfilled prophesies distilled into the Jesus stories as actually fulfilled prophesies. Freke & Gandy take the mythological conclusions further - that the stories are not merely midrashic, mythological overlays of an actual 1st century man, but that Jesus was completely mythological. This too is a possibility. What I am steadfastly opposed to is the way Literalist Christianity came about, how it was enforced by demonic regimes for centuries, and how completely ridiculous it is for 21st century human beings to entertain Literalist interpretations of yet another religion among other religions. As Freke & Gandy so aptly point out, it is this singular claim for historicity that sets Literalist Christianity apart from all the others - NOT their monopoly on Truth.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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The_Hobbit
Bilbo Baggins


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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5336707 - 02/25/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hi Markos. I was just wondering - what is your opinion on Hell? I cannot bring myself to beleive in God because of the lack of compulsion, being that I'm a logical person (for better or worse). I hope that I don't get eternally punished for my 'mistake', if I am making one.
I like the mentality where being a good person means something. =) In my mind, I beleive that it's all relative. There is something deeply connected about the life on earth and the universe that we are part of, but I cannot accept that it's anything more than chaos without an agenda. It just so happens that, in this chaos, we find connections with the life around us. This is why I can totally relate to religious people, but I cannot relate to hell because of the implications it has on people who had no chance to ever hear of The Bible. I think.. if I were a muslim, would I have an epiphany about the truth of The Bible? Not likely. My circumstance basically decided my 'fate'.
-------------------- Smoking my hobbit leaf... Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.
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Lakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: WScott]
#5337180 - 02/25/06 05:13 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
WScottsdale said: Even though Jesus may have been the Son of God, it seems quite clear that the writings and interpretations of the time were quite distorted (Constantine comes to mind). My question is not to debate the validity of Christ, but to ask, if one were to want to read the Bible would it not be 'distorted' as well. Is there any point in reading the Bible if one believes that this is not actually God's word?
Basically, which version of the Bible is thought to be the most accurate?
No one in here has read THE Bible. Learn Ancient Greek or Aramaic to do that. Spend ten years studying the Bible, and you'll loose all faith in our intepretations.
The most accurate version of the Bible is the original. Considering how much Ancient Greek canNOT be translated into English, in order to understand the Bible you must study it in the languages it was written in. In addition study Middle Eastern and Greek cultures from 2,000 years ago.
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fivepointer
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: The_Hobbit]
#5337248 - 02/25/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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some how i find this hard to believe that one entity can control an endless universe that cannot even be fathomed by our minds. there is always a boundary on the human mind.gods will is to have ppl suffer and bomb each other??spread aids and disease?(population control)?
Jesus was delivered into the hands of sinners to suffer, even this was ordained (Acts 2:23). All things are ordered according to God's purpose, this includes suffering, injustice, starvation, AIDS ect..
This begs the question of why should these things be? We read that all things are created so that God might be glorified in His attributes. Wickedness was purposed so that God might overcome wickedness by revealing His grace. So we can see His attribute of righteousness in the punishment of sin, and His mercy which overcomes wickedness, in the salvation of sinners.
Since God can not act contrary to His nature (for example He cannot lie or break a promise), once a law has been decreed it can not be disannulled for some and not for others. In order to forgive a condemned sinner, the law must be satisfied. Jesus Christ HAD to satisfy the demands of the law on behalf of those who will be forgiven. This mercy is given as an act of free grace, apart from any works of goodness that a sinner might bring to the table. In fact a sinner has no "acts of goodness" at all. Yet despite that, for those He has chosen, who deserve nothing but wrath, they receive love instead. God is glorified in remaining just, and justifier at the same time.
i dont mean to dis ur beliefs or anything its just that i dont believe one person/entity can control the universe.the bible was written b4 anyone even knew there were other Galaxy's.
The Holy Spirit wrote the scriptures through men. How did Moses know about the creation of the world in Genesis? He was not alive at that time. The Spirit moved people to write the scriptures.
This is why I can totally relate to religious people, but I cannot relate to hell because of the implications it has on people who had no chance to ever hear of The Bible. I think.. if I were a muslim, would I have an epiphany about the truth of The Bible? Not likely. My circumstance basically decided my 'fate'.
You have to remember that every last person deserves hell. So if people get what they deserve (damnation) there is no injustice in it. Mercy is not an obligation.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: The_Hobbit]
#5337751 - 02/25/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I do not understand how someone who says he does not believe in God can ask questions about Hell. I also do not understand how you can contradict yourself and say that you can "totally relate to religious people"! Perhaps you do not believe in the 'Old-Bearded-Guy-in-the-Sky,' tribal god that still comes down to us through modern primitive people. That idea of God is just that - an idea, not the Ultimate Reality that we refer to as God. Such personifications were laughable by enlightened people thousands of years ago. Greek philosophers even ridiculed Pagans for believing in the personifications of Greek gods and goddesses. Few (if any) Pagans believe in the exploits of Zeus today, but God only knows how many people still believe in Jehova!!!
If one believes that Hell is a 'place' located in the bowels of the Earth (like an ancient person), or even if one is more sophisticated conceptually and understands Hell to be a 'metaphysical' reality - a state of being not located in space-time, one still has to contend with the notion of a vindictive, tyrannical deity like the Hebrew Yahweh (Jehova) who, in Old Testament stories orders heinous genocides, infanticides, or just cataclysms like 'the flood.' Jehova even "smites" the Philistines with fatal hemorroids ["emrods"] (I Samuel 5:8-9)!! I personally do not disbelieve in Hell[s]. The Hindus have them, the Buddhists have them, the Pagans had them and the Christians borrowed the idea from the Pagans (along with most everything else in Christianity. Hebrew ideas of Heaven and Hell were not existent except for occasional vague references to resurrection (as in Daniel).
I cannot give you a better response about Hell because it too is an idea drawn from various sources. Like Heaven, it is a metaphysical condition of human awareness that is said to have a direct relationship with the moral nature of human beings. That moral nature in turn is determined by different religious traditions. In Literalist Christianity, Hell is said to be the result of not believing certain doctrines (hence, heresy), despite one being a "good person." For example, the Church Fathers recognized that the 'heretical' Cathars were beyond reproach in their behaviors as non-violent, vegetarian, humble, prayerful individuals, BUT, they held to doctrines which were considered criminal to believe! They were tortured and burned alive by the tens of thousands because of their BELIEFS ("Kill them all, God will know his own!")! This can also be viewed as the making of Hell-on-Earth by individuals who claimed to be Christians (Popes, Crusaders, etc.) but were in truth the most evil and sadistic subhumans of their age. For ancient Pagans, for Eastern religions and for Islam, Hell might be an eternal reality (which would make it co-extensive with God, because only God is eternal) but humans do not remain in Hell for eternity. Only Literalist Christians came up with that one, which even the ancients found to be repulsive. As the ancient critic Celsus wrote:
"Now it will be wondered how men so desperate in their beliefs can persuade others to join their ranks. The Christians use sundry methods of persuasion, and invent a number of terrifying incentives. Above all, they have concocted an absolutely offensive doctrine of everlasting punishments and rewards exceeding anything that philosophers (who have never denied the punishment of the unrighteous or the reward of the blessed) could have imagined." From Celsus On the True Doctrine by R.J. Hoffman, p.80, Quoted in The Jesus Mysteries by Freke & Gandy
Sorry for lack of a more precise answer.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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beavis190
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5337788 - 02/25/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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having sex b4 marriage is a sin. so 85% of the world will go to hell?everyone sins. what is a sin but a law that is being broken so there for god is a government pressing his laws on the world sending people to jail/hell.what if u dont believe in god or are another religion u still get punished by him?i find it hard to believe that one person/entity can control everyones fate.ur destiny is urs and u choose where to go and what to do
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: beavis190]
#5338041 - 02/25/06 01:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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'Sin' is a concept that belongs to 'guilt cultures' such as the cultures that constellate around Western Literalist religion. In the East, there are 'shame cultures' which differ markedly in terms of 'why' something is right or wrong. Instead of having the sense that one has 'offended' God, there is the embarrassment that one has not lived up to enlightened standards of conduct.
If one wishes to live one's entire adult life with a childish misunderstanding of the nature of religious myth and allegory, there is very little that I have to say about such people. Literalist, Fundamentalist beliefs are going to result in much more horror, never peace. People are ruled by misunderstood 'ideas,' not by God. If they were ruled by God and not the writings they falsely worship instead of God, the world could be at peace.
Who says sex before marriage results in God sending someone to Hell? Do you know who? Do you know why? Do you know where these words came from? No? Going to take them as real anyway? That's your choice, but don't expect me or anyone else to to live by your delusions. Is a child who accidentally kills another with a gun going to go to Hell also? Yes? Then your God is a monster. No? Then why not? The multitudes of the world are children - ruled by basic appetites, not intentionally trying to be unhappy but being unhappy because they are ignorant children who are trying to become happy though good feelings, through sex, through over-eating, through obtaining 'toys,' through showing off their toys, through showing off themselves ('aren't I beautiful?,' 'aren't I handsome?,' 'I have more toys/money than you do !,' etc., etc.) People are stupid children and some people are SO irked by it that they're gonna put words in God's non-existent mouth saying that stupid show-off children are gonna be burned in a stinking lake of sulfur until Hell freezes over... Morality enforced by fear of punishment is NO morality at all. It characterizes very young children. We Know things today, we're not living in medieval times like some of us wish we were. Such people are quite mad.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fivepointer
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: beavis190]
#5338055 - 02/25/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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having sex b4 marriage is a sin. so 85% of the world will go to hell?everyone sins. what is a sin but a law that is being broken so there for god is a government pressing his laws on the world sending people to jail/hell.
You are right, everyone sins. Yet God demands perfection. Man was created in God's image, and is accountable to God. The law brings knowledge of sin. The law is has no mercy in it, and it brings death. The law is to lead a person away from his own self-righteousness, and look to the righteousness of Jesus Christ. The only righteousness that will be accepted is the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone. This is the sole ground of justification with God, Christ's righteousness.
what if u dont believe in god or are another religion u still get punished by him?
Yes. The evidence salvation is belief of the gospel. Those who do not believe show that they are currently unsaved. If they remain that way until death, we know they were not saved. Belief is the evidence, not the cause, the cause is the free grace of God.
i find it hard to believe that one person/entity can control everyones fate.ur destiny is urs and u choose where to go and what to do
Man thinks he controls his own fate, yet he does not. Man is born in a fallen state, and is blind to the fact that he is blind, and in spiritual bondage.
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beavis190
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Re: Alright, say Jesus was the real deal.. [Re: fivepointer]
#5338190 - 02/25/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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u are preaching blind faith have u seen god? has he told u this? did he show u heaven/hell?has he taken u across the universe?u read a book and think u understand everything. id rather but my faith in facts and things i know are real and use common sense. >Man thinks he controls his own fate, yet he does not. Man is born in a fallen state, and is blind to the fact that he is blind, and in spiritual bondage.<<
i can get a gun and blow my head off right now.i control what i do. why is god the controller of the universe has he told u that every other religion is wrong?
>>The evidence salvation is belief of the gospel. Those who do not believe show that they are currently unsaved. If they remain that way until death, we know they were not saved. Belief is the evidence,<< show me one thing to prove this.u cant.so u dont know this.religion is just a way to explain the unexplainable.everyone thinks that what they believe is right.a man is evil so he is possessed by the devil?yet we are all born neutral with no understanding of anything.if no one was pressured by religion and the thought of going to hell there would be no religion.
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