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Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . .
    #533330 -

Here's what's happening:
Used the 50/50 tek on jars; which were completely covered in myc. in less than 2 weeks. I plan on putting them in the terraruim after the 4 week mark.

I was thinking of maybe adding sugar to the upper level of the casing, but before I do, I wanted to see what you guys think.

If you've ever seen sugar sit out, with moisture, I think you know why I'm trying this. It grows all shortsa crazyness on it, fungus, mold, etc. Now, if I add it to the casing, would it act as an accelerant, or would it only provide a food source for contams?
Is there anything else that could possibly be added to spur on growth (perhaps bread crumbs, rye bread might actually be great to use)?

All info greatly appreciated, thanks.


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If humans are what they eat, I'm just a huuuuuuge mushroom.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533335 -

if you're talking about regular kitchen sugar, that's not the kind that psilocybe cubensis mycelium is going to have an easy time digesting. you're only going to be increasing your chances of contamination.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533483 -

caseings are non nutritious by definition.


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If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: DinoMyc]
    #533499 -

If casings are non-nutritive, then how do you explain mushroom growth? So, if I put some rice and torn paper in a corner of a room, I'll get mice from that, right?

Mushrooms get nutrients from casings. I'm looking to put the most benefitial nutrients in the casings.


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If humans are what they eat, I'm just a huuuuuuge mushroom.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533508 -

>Mushrooms get nutrients from casings.
No.
Mostly water.
Read Stamets, Chilton:The Mushroom Cultivator, CHAPTER VIII: The Casing Layer


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533518 -

I just love a 9 post expert cultivator with an attitude. Mushrooms get their nutrients from the substrate, not the casing layer... but feel free to add whatever you like to your casing. When it blows up in a rainbow of contaminants... take lots of pics so we can all have a good chuckle.
Then... you can read the teks again, and ask for advice only if your ready to listen to it!

Good Luck!

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Shdwstr]
    #533658 -

well said :smile:

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533778 -

Well, if one uses substrate from completely colonized jars, and puts them into, say an aquarium so that they form one continuous layer, what the hell good does the casing layer do besides hamper mushroom growth (if the casing layer isn't supposed to contain nutrients, why even include it at all, ESPECIALLY when the substrate cakes are completely colonized and only likely to be hit by mold, if anything)? Wouldn't the time and energy the myciluim uses to grow through the casing layer be counter-productive then, since it's only growing through unusable material while at the same time expending energy to do so?


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If humans are what they eat, I'm just a huuuuuuge mushroom.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533785 -

Because the casing layer serve the pourpose to give a proper support for growth and to give the microclimate needed to produce primordia.
Who told you that the casing layer isn't used by the mycelium?
it's used to support better, enhanced growth.
You can't even compare the yield between fruiting from cakes and fruiting froma casing.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533787 -

btw...follow anno's advice....and then get back here with a more positive attitude, mr. iknoweverything

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: CLuB99]
    #533789 -

Yeah, I know that the casing layer provides support (physically) and deters some contamination. However, wouldn't it increase yields even more if the casing itself could be used (nutritionally) by the fungus?


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If humans are what they eat, I'm just a huuuuuuge mushroom.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533790 -

Like Anno wrote read the corresponding literature! Nobody in this forum is going to discuss with you if a casing should contain nutrients, because it just shouldn't.

"if the casing layer isn't supposed to contain nutrients, why even include it at all, ESPECIALLY when the substrate cakes are completely colonized and only likely to be hit by mold, if anything"

If the casing was properly handled it is even a protective layer. I have 2 cased trays since mid agoust at 95 % rH without contamination. The casing contains microflora, which helps to fructify. It also produces a microclimate, which gives the right conditions for fruiting (high humidity) and like Anno wrote, the mushroom gets almost only water from it. Without a casing the water is taken from the substrate, drying it faster out and giving you less fruits. There are also many species which don't fruit without a casing layer.


Elektrolurch


--------------------
"For all the time spent in that room
The doll's house, darkness, old perfume
And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533796 -

no, it will only promote contams, and i forgot to mention that the casing layer serve also to protect the substrate from contams....

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #533986 -

Since you're obviously not listening to the advice given to you by experienced growers, how about you RTFM!

The Mushroom Cultivator
By Paul Stamets and J.S. Chilton.

Go spend $30 and save us the brain pain, or actually listen to the answers after asking a question.

that is all.
uniboner


--------------------
sleep is for the weak.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #534118 -

Sugar may attract mold and all that, but is it stuff you would want?
I'm imagining something green, possibly black.
Better idea to keep following the herd for now.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #534555 -

You could mix sterilized horse dung to the spawn to increase the amount of spawn and then case. Oryou can also add a layer of sterilized dung(make sure it doesn't smell of ammonia) mixed with 50% vermiculite to add more nutrients. You should break up cakes in a terrarium or some sort of container, allow it to recover for two days, and then place a 1-2" layer on top of it. Once that layer is colonized, you can add a casing layer to it(pure vermiculite or 50% neutralized peat/50% vermiculite.
The reason why you can get away with adding sterilized dung(aka extra nutrients) to the spawn is because the spawn will colonize it BEFORE any molds have a chance to get to it. Dung that is well composted has less available nutrients to competitors, and as long as you have good air exchange during this process and don't put more than 2" of dung on top of the spawn, you'll suceed.

Edited by Azure (01/29/02 12:06 AM)

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Azure]
    #534777 -

Once you add nutrition to it, it becomes substrate, not casing. Casing by definitiion contains no nutrients. This type of environment does not usually occur in nature, but is created by man to maximize the fruiting potential of a speicies as has been described by the very knowlegable people who have posted in this thread already. Sure it may fruit without a casing... Sure it may fruit if you create a substrate on top that mimics the action of a casing, but contains nutrients.

But don't bother to ask for advise if you aren't going to accept it when it diagrees with what you want to hear. Those serious to the subject know what a casing is, and why it works. I'm all for inovation, just respect the work others have done. Listen to them, read them, etc. If you do, you will find you will find you will have very few questions to ask. You don't have to have done eveything personally, but at least make yourself knowledgeale about the basics before you start trying to change them. You're not wrong to ask questions, but you're challenging the answers without the knowlege to back it up. If you had it, you wouln't have had to ask this question. To answer some more that you posed though...

A casing SHOULD contain beneficial bacteria that help guard against contamination (which is why it is mearly pasteurized not sterilized). These bacteria favor mycelial growth as well. Also, having something for the pins to push through, causes the mushrooms to form larger and stronger.

So, if its like a casing, but.... Then it ain't a casing.

Opi

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Opi]
    #534786 -

"This type of environment does not usually occur in nature,..."

Well I wouldn't formulate it that way. Psi. cubensis and Pan cyanescens don't have normally a soil-casing in nature (but the dung itself works kind of a casing).

Other mushrooms like Psi. zapotecorum and Psi. caerulescens fruit beneath a naturally occuring casing, namely in soil that was washen on plant material by the rain.

Elektrolurch


--------------------
"For all the time spent in that room
The doll's house, darkness, old perfume
And fairy stories held me high on
Clouds of sunlight floating by.", Pink Floyd '67

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #539921 -

Maybe you could try adding some honey.. or dextrose to your subsrate (BEFORE pressure cooking and inoculation).. i dunno about caramelization or ammounts, but if I wanted to increase the 'sugary goodness' of my experiments, thats how I would do it.

Maybe Corn Syrup or Maple sugar would be good canadites, as well?

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Canisdormit]
    #540563 -

Yes you can add nutrition to the casing layer, but it is done prior to casing colonization, not after. USUALLY the additive is mixed with the colonized substrate and then cased(S.A.C.) supplementing at casing, but it can be added directly to the casing layer.

Problems arrising from doing this:
Overlay, excessive vegetative growth across the casing soil surface.
Delayed pin set, which can be a bad thing if contaminants are not excluded.
uneven pin set
Changes the timing of when to initiate, balancing overlay risk, with the mycelium use of the extra nutrition.
Benefits:
Increased yields if everything goes perfectly


A good additive is Manure , but only in low quantity. You still want your casing soil to be a casing soil, not a substrate.

You gotta ask yourself is it really worth the trouble!!!! The yield increase is not gonna be substantial without it becoming a substrate layer.

Supplement at casing would be a better IDEA. But still risky for the inexperienced, and even the experienced.

All the previous posters are absolutely right, when you add nutrition to the casing soil, it really isn't a casing soil by definition anymore. But you can do it!!!

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: ]
    #540930 -

I'm not an experience mycologist, but I was reading the bit about the honey, and I'm working on growing out some cubensis strains on a honey-enriched substrate (before sterilization), and other than the cakes seeming very dense and taking a little longer to colonize, everything seems ok. There is some amount of caramelization though, for sure, my substrate is much more red in color than usual after sterilization.

I hate to bring this up, but I didnt get any feedback in the regular forum, would worm castings be considered a nutritive layer? I substituted worm castings for peat in the 50/50 casing recipe, and it looks ok so far ??


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[green]"You'll accomplish more if you start now"[/green]
[red]-Egghead[/red]
[green]TeRzMaStA[/green] is the man.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Split]
    #541815 -

Worm castings have very little nutritional content, the worms do concentrate some micronutrients into the castings, but as far as NPK value it is very non- nutritional. Growers of plants use the stuff because of the texture it adds to the soiless mix. It is exceptional for this use at about 20 percent volume of soiless mix. Some growers use higher concentrations, but 20% is reccomended.

As far as using it for casing soil in mushroom farming, I have zero experience. I will say this, every picture I have seen when it is used, looks great. Either used on it's own or as an ingredient of a mix. It supplys good water retention qualities, negligible PH disturbance.

Overall the stuff is VERY GOOD for it's various uses. I would not consider it nutritious. I would consider it structural, kind of like a peat substitute.

If you have it, use it. It would be considered a casing component more so then a substrate component. Though it might have some use as a substrate component to, for Water retention, and pore space. Hell I put perlite in my substrate mixes, and it has very little water holding potential, and offers zero nutrition, but the aeration qualities are EXCELLENT.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: ]
    #541822 -

Honey hardens, and this is why I wouldn't use it. It might actually seal up sections of the substrate, and prevent it's utilization. But hey, I have never tried the stuff, so keep us informed of the progress!!!!

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: ]
    #541958 -

I thought I would drop what I know about casing... But I am not going to scold anyone. And the experienced ones may agree with me on this... Any soil-type casing gives chance to contams. But if you keep the CO low, then you reduce your chances of contams. From what I know, casing is like a way to keep moisture on hand for the shrooms. And also it keeps the mycelium at a constant humidity level which is just right. And yes, I am sure that the minerals in some types of casing does benefit to get primordia going. Now if you were growing something other than P. Cubensis, then I could see the importance of having the right minerals and salts in the casing... but in my opinion.... there isn't much benefit with using soil-based casings. I would rather not risk contamination. What I use is what I learned in Stamets books. Usually peat moss, mixed with gypsum and chalk to keep to acidity and Ph levels perfect. But usually I use the "no possible way for contams" tek.... water crystals and vermiculite, half and half. The crystals are a bit expensive, like 9 bucks for a little jar, but they hold a mad amount of water. And like someone said above... its about the water. The minerals you need is all in the substrate. What do you guys think?


--------------------
Keep it ReaL.

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: Elektrolurch]
    #542066 -

When I said "this type of environment does not usually occur in nature", I meant a completely non nutrient casing. That USUALLY only occurs in cultivation..

Opi

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Re: Adding extra "stuff" to casings. . . [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #542074 -

You are absolutely right. There is no necessity for microorganisms in the casing layer with cubensis. No nutritional factors are necessary either in the casing soil with cubensis. That is why people use Peat based casing (soiless) mixes, or just vermiculite mixes. Hell I don't even add lime or limestone to my peat based casings and still get great results just using my alkaline tap water for soil solution Ph adjustment. Don't try this at home kiddies, you can lose some casings if you don't spot any contaminants EARLY.

I still prefer peat to vermiculite, I don't ever use vermiculite at any stage. I use Peat and perlite for casings. I am a masocist I guess. But I sterilize everything.

This coir looks pretty interesting, but I hate having to order stuff in the mail if I don't have to.

Polymers ? Why not just the straight vermiculite, would be cheaper and cleaner. Do you really notice a difference between the straight vermiculite and the Polymer, vermiculite mix? Or do you just have to mist less?

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