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Offlinewilshire
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
    #5346949 - 02/27/06 08:04 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

They want to destroy the institutions which create the wealth gap in the first place.

i don't think there is any peaceful way to destroy the fact that some people are more productive than others.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5346992 - 02/27/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

There are decidedly Leftist anarchists and decidedly Rightist anarchists. Both tend to be of the utopian mindset.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5347040 - 02/27/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

they're both saying that there should be no government. beyond that, there are differences, but since they cannot be political ones in the absence of government, i don't see how either can be divided on political differences of left\right.

anarchy means absence of government. absence of material inequality is a completely different goal (and one that is about as realistic and consistant with anarchy as anarchy is with itself).

i'd be completely fine with absence of material inequality right along side absence of government. i've never heard a "leftist" anarchist explain how that would ever work, but then i've never heard anyone explain how any kind of anarchy would ever work.


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Offlined33p
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
    #5347288 - 02/27/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

anarchism is certainly not left-wing. who will redistribute wealth when there is no state?



Did you not read my post? Left-wing anarchists do not want some governing body to "redistribute" the wealth. They want to destroy the institutions which create the wealth gap in the first place.




Isn't it painfully obvious to anyone with an inkling of common sense that humans will create material wealth gaps irregardless of the institutions in place.

Someone is always gonna go and pee on your cheese.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5347318 - 02/27/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
they're both saying that there should be no government. beyond that, there are differences, but since they cannot be political ones in the absence of government, i don't see how either can be divided on political differences of left\right.





Granted, most of the differences between the two deal with non-political beliefs. How will Man act? What are Man's natural inclinations and what kind of lifestyle is most conducive to His welfare? The Leftist anarchists usually envision communes where everyone is equal, excessive materialism has disappeared, and everybody lives happily ever after. Rightist anarchists usually envision no authority stifling Man's economic behavior and they are willing to accept disparity.

I would have to brush up on my political theory, but there are a gazillion branches of anarchism. Most of them quite clearly call for some type of authority, just not a powerful central authority. Even Marx called for "councils" and stuff like that.


Quote:

wilshire said:
i'd be completely fine with absence of material inequality right along side absence of government. i've never heard a "leftist" anarchist explain how that would ever work, but then i've never heard anyone explain how any kind of anarchy would ever work.




Because it won't. People with utopian dreams are either young, naive, or stupid.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5348142 - 02/28/06 02:13 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Leftists want total government

Where did you get this bullshit from?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5348151 - 02/28/06 02:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

anarchy means absence of government. absence of material inequality is a completely different goal (and one that is about as realistic and consistant with anarchy as anarchy is with itself).

i'd be completely fine with absence of material inequality right along side absence of government. i've never heard a "leftist" anarchist explain how that would ever work, but then i've never heard anyone explain how any kind of anarchy would ever work.


Then you need to do a lot more reading on the subject. The first thing that happened when the anarchists took over in parts of spain during the civil war was rich people in the community had their wealth shared equally with everyone else.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5348168 - 02/28/06 02:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

anarchism is certainly not left-wing

You've never met an anarchist have you. Look up a meeting of your local anarchist group and go along. Start spouting right-wing ideas.

Just one thing - make sure you have a dental appointment booked for the following day as your teeth will need an awful lot of work.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
    #5348267 - 02/28/06 04:11 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> I guess if everybody was killin Jews you'd be fine with that too then?

Again, we are not in pretend land, we are in the world of reality.  How can you possible go from "When the country is split 50/50 on something, then regardless of how we feel personally, we must err on the side of freedom and leave responsible adults to decide what is right and what is wrong as it applies to them." to "I guess if everybody was killin Jews you'd be fine with that too then?"

Why does me accepting something have to be the same as me endorsing something?  Do you not understand the concept of personal responsibility?  Do you not understand the concept of ignoring other people's moral failings hoping that they will ignore your own moral failings?  Do you not understand the concept of let he who is sin free throw the first stone?  I don't need the government telling me what is right and what is wrong.  I can figure that one out on my own.

The issue doesn't matter... be it abortion, gay marriage, drug use, killing Jews (:rolleyes:), or anything else, when the population is split 50/50, then we must swallow our pride when we disagree, and err on the side of freedom.  I have no more right to tell you that you cannot have buttsex than you have the right to tell me that I must have buttsex.  This is a simple concept that doesn't requite a lot of thought... but for those that like to live in the land of pretend thinking up outrageous examples that would never happen, then perhaps I should amend my original statement to include something like, "that doesn't harm other people"... 

> I just don't see the reasoning in going along with a majority if the majority is wrong.

Again, I said nothing about going along with a majority... I said, when the country is split on something 50/50... which means no majority... then we must allow each individual to decide for on their own what to do.  In fact, this is the exact opposite of "going along with a majority".  When there is no clear majority, then we have no right to arbitrarily pick one side or the other to be the majority forcing that sides views upon the population.  Instead, when there is no clear majority, we have to let each side do as they please and look the other way when we disagree.  This is known as freedom, and it isn't always easy.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
    #5348317 - 02/28/06 05:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The first thing that happened when the anarchists took over in parts of spain during the civil war was rich people in the community had their wealth shared equally with everyone else.

they "had their wealth shared"? who shared their wealth for them?

You've never met an anarchist have you.

to the extent that i believe no government is legitimate, and that governments should be reduced in size and power and much as possible, i am one. if anarchism is a 'left' thing, why are the 'lefts' on this board almost always arguing (against the 'rights') for greater government involvement?

make sure you have a dental appointment booked for the following day as your teeth will need an awful lot of work.

and i know that any anarchist respects freedom of thought and freedom of speech. it's no surprise that your 'left' anarchists do not - they are not anarchists.

why would they want to kick my teeth in anyway? in a political sense, how would my 'right' anarchy differ from their 'left' anarchy? would they not have to be identical in a political sense, seeing that neither could have a government and truly be called anarcy?


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Edited by wilshire (02/28/06 05:21 AM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Seuss]
    #5348380 - 02/28/06 06:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Was that quick-reply you used there Seuss? I didn't ask you any of those questions.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5348390 - 02/28/06 06:18 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

they "had their wealth shared"? who shared their wealth for them?


Anarchists.

to the extent that i believe no government is legitimate, and that governments should be reduced in size and power and much as possible, i am one

That's a extremely limited view of anarchism. Anarchists also believe humans have dignity based on love of liberty and a desire to help each other. Power and money are obstacles to this and are to be abolished all together. Anarchists believe in overthrowing capitalism.

are the 'lefts' on this board almost always arguing (against the 'rights') for greater government involvement?



I think you misunderstand. If the only choice is between government involvement or allowing rich unanswerable corporations to devastate the environment and society then yes - have greater government involvement. That doesn't mean they support more government, simply that the alternative is infinitely worse.

it's no surprise that your 'left' anarchists do not - they are not anarchists.


According to who?

I'm simply making the point that if you go to an anarchist meeting with your current view that anarchists are right-wingers you are in for a serious wake-up call.

in a political sense, how would my 'right' anarchy differ from their 'left' anarchy?

In what sense wouldn't it differ?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
    #5348408 - 02/28/06 06:39 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

> Was that quick-reply you used there Seuss? I didn't ask you any of those questions.

Sorry Alex213, a quick-mis-reply... was supposed to be a reply to Baby Hitler, I believe.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
    #5348515 - 02/28/06 08:08 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In what sense wouldn't it differ?

to be anarchist, they would both have to support zero government, and therefore, there could be no differences of a political nature between the two.

it would be like saying there are religious differences that define different camps of atheism.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5348581 - 02/28/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The fundamental difference between "Right" anarchists (i.e. Murray Rothbard) and "Left" anarchists (i.e. anarcho-syndicalists) is that the Right anarchists are satisfied with abolishing government. That isn't enough for Left anarchists -- they would also abolish all forms of "hierarchy". This means (to a Left anarchist) that (among other things) capitalist practices must not be permitted, because they assert that Capitalism cannot exist without hierarchy.

It's not enough for a Left anarchist to eliminate the political bosses; the economic "bosses" must also be eliminated. If an economic activity cannot take place through one-man businesses or through "co-op" type practices, that economic activity will not be permitted.

It's been a long time indeed since there's been a discussion in this forum regarding the follies of Left anarchism. I'm tempted to bump some of the classic anarchy threads from a few years back and use them as a starting point for further discussion. It would make more sense than having this thread on an abortion bill in South Dakota further hijacked into a debate on anarchists.

Anyone with me on that?




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
    #5349076 - 02/28/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Leftists want total government

Where did you get this bullshit from?




Communist manifesto


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5349137 - 02/28/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The Communist manifesto does not say anything about total government.


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
    #5349263 - 02/28/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

For communism to be put in place without government would require total agreement from everyone in the communist society. However, when everyone does not agree, some people must be governed by others to force their compliance. Whether those doing the forcing claim they are anarchists, working for the government, the people, or God makes no difference in their actions, they are a de-facto governors over those that they are aggressing against.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5349277 - 02/28/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

This thread has been motherfuckin' jacked!


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OfflinePhred
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5349323 - 02/28/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Indeed it has been jacked.

If contributors to this thread can't get it back on track -- addressing the implications of South Dakota's anti-abortion bill -- I'll presume no one has more to say on the topic and I'll lock the thread.




Phred


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