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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5344297 - 02/27/06 06:10 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The true hard core right are the anarchists.

WTF?

Yet more gutwind.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
    #5344797 - 02/27/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No, he's 100% correct.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Redstorm]
    #5344953 - 02/27/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No, he's 100% wrong. The history of anarchism is leftist history. For as far back as you care to go. There's been a very recent attempt for far right-wingers to call themselves anarchists but it doesn't wash.


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InvisibleOJK
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5345060 - 02/27/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I don't subscribe to abortion being considered a moral issue. People take a complex scientific issue (when does a foetus become a person?) and apply their own personal opinions to it, as if they have some kind of standing from which to make a judgement. There is wide consensus among the medical community over when a foetus becomes a human being - there is debate over exactly how long the "safe" period of abortion from the time of conception is, but I see having an abortion after, say, a month, as essentially the same as taking an emergency contraceptive pill, or using contraception.

Subscribing to the argument that because an embro can become a human, it is entitled to the same rights as a human, is in my view no different from a view that the components of an embryo (i.e. sperm and ova) deserve similar levels of protection. In other words, morally speaking, an abortion at a sufficiently early stage in pregnancy is no different from using a condom - you've stopped a potential human being from existing, but so does using contraception.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Seuss]
    #5345110 - 02/27/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I guess if everybody was killin Jews you'd be fine with that too then?

That's no stretch of the imagination.

What if the government were putting millions of people in jail for illicit drug use each year. About half the population here supports doing that so I guess that makes the drug war ok then.

Most Americans supported the invasion of Iraq, so I guess that's Kosher too.

I just don't see the reasoning in going along with a majority if the majority is wrong.


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
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( (>    SUPER
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Offlineheidegger
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: OJK]
    #5345322 - 02/27/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Odiumjunkie said:
Subscribing to the argument that because an embro can become a human, it is entitled to the same rights as a human, is in my view no different from a view that the components of an embryo (i.e. sperm and ova) deserve similar levels of protection.




The core of the problem is that many people cannot comprehend the basic characteristics of biological life, consciousness and identity. They need to have clear-cut distinctions: something is a person or it is not. Something is conscious or it is not. Something has an identity or it has not. This naive desire for clear-cut and obvious distinctions cannot be satisfied if you analyse the biological foundations of life deeply enough. For instance, if an embryo is equal to a human being from the time of contraception, how can it be that this same embryo can split into two monozygotic twins in a later stage of development?
The making of a human being is a gradual process, not a singular event. All that we know is that there is no human in the beginning, and that there is a human in the end of the process.


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Offlineheidegger
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5345360 - 02/27/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I just don't see the reasoning in going along with a majority if the majority is wrong.




How do we decide what is right and what is wrong? It depends on the set of rules you define to achieve the decision. Of course we can define it in a way so that truth is what the majority of people thinks. But is that the right way to determine the right thing? How do we decide what is right and what is wrong? It depends on the set of rules you define to achieve the decision. Of course we can define it in a way so that truth is what the majority of people thinks. But is that the right way to determine the right thing? How do we...

Moral of the story:
Statements that use the terms right and wrong only make sense if we also state the rule-set that was used to derive these statements. Otherwise, these terms are given a problematic semblance of objectivity, especially in discussion about ethics.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
    #5345929 - 02/27/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
No, he's 100% wrong. The history of anarchism is leftist history. For as far back as you care to go. There's been a very recent attempt for far right-wingers to call themselves anarchists but it doesn't wash.




Anarchists want no government
Leftists want total government

It is quite a common syndrome that when the feeble of mind are confronted with the utter untenability of their ridiculous beliefs they will swing to the opposite extreme without any stops in between. They feel betrayed and in a fit of rage take the exactly opposite but equally stupid position. "Well, if I can't have a government that will, will, will give me everything then I won't have any government at all." It is a common trait of the feeble mind that there are only absolutes. This is why the feeble minds that embrace leftism and the feeble minds that embrace anarchism are often one and the same, depending on which house of the crystal's karmic interphase with nano-jupiter the chakra is in. A kind of Stockholm syndrome if you will. Oh, the trauma. Poor babies.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5345972 - 02/27/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

the left started the Anarchy game in the late 1800s symapthizers of marx held bread riots under the tsars rule,

Mckinley was assassinated by a leftist anarchist Leon Csolgosz, verarious anarchist groups and unions were set up in the 1920s, with the advent of the FBI these groups tapered off when they were under federal scrutiny, Then in the 60's you had leftest groups like the Black Panthers and The Weather Underground and other various radical groups

Then in the later 70's the Neonazi/survivalist and radical extreme right groups popped out.Then around the time of Ruby Ridge and Waco in the early 90's these groups sparked up huge and even resulted in Oklahoma City bombing.

Leftist anarchists are still around in USA in large number especially whenever there is WTO meeting.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5346090 - 02/27/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Anarchists want no government
Leftists want total government

You wanna walk me through this one or does what I wrote above hold true?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5346107 - 02/27/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

He is correct about the background of anarchism, though. In fact, the end-all of communism is supposed to be anarchy.

In today's talks of liberals vs. conservatives, it makes more sense to view the latter as closer to wanting anarchy.


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5346115 - 02/27/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The only problem I have with it is that it makes labelling someone a leftist a lot harder.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Gijith]
    #5346129 - 02/27/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Just call them an asshole. It's much easier.


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Offlineheidegger
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Redstorm]
    #5346275 - 02/27/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

During the russian revolution, the anarchists (black army) somehow were a third power besides zarists (white army) and communists (red army).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Guards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor_Makhno
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Communist


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5346582 - 02/27/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Anarchists want no government
Leftists want total government



Wrong.

Anarchists want no government.
Totalitarians want total government.

Anarchism and totalitarianism both come in right-wing and left-wing varieties.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
    #5346634 - 02/27/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

So what is it that defines leftists if not government being responsible for everything? And what does a left wing anarchist want? A non-government that does everything?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5346775 - 02/27/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Left-wingers want equality. Proudhoun, a left-wing anarchist(in fact, the first person to call himself an anarchist), famously said "Property is theft." He believed, quite correctly that certain property rights could only exist through government intervention, and that without government, people would become much more equal. In fact, right-wing anarchists such as Murray Rothbard tend to be slightly more authoritarian, in that their idea of anarchy includes such things as police and courts.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
    #5346869 - 02/27/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Left-wingers want equality. Proudhoun, a left-wing anarchist(in fact, the first person to call himself an anarchist), famously said "Property is theft." He believed, quite correctly that certain property rights could only exist through government intervention, and that without government, people would become much more equal. In fact, right-wing anarchists such as Murray Rothbard tend to be slightly more authoritarian, in that their idea of anarchy includes such things as police and courts.




Left wingers want equality. Do you mean like in that Kurt Vonnegut short story where good dancers wear weights and smart people have sirens implanted in their heads that go off every few minutes, calibrated to how smart they are?

Property rights can only exist through government intervention? Well, I guess, but if Boss Hogg hires a bunch of retards to be killers and he takes control of land you can call that a government. I guess. I won't, but you can. But he sure seems to be exercising property rights. Without a government. Seems to me that you can have property rights with a government or without one.

If you have police and courts you can call it anarchy if you want. That would be linguistic anarchy. You can call it a green llama. It still doesn't exist.

Without government, most people become slaves. Unwilling slaves, not "poor oppressed idiot worker slaves who don't know how to throw off the shackles of the man slaves. Pass the chips while I change the channel slaves."


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
    #5346886 - 02/27/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

anarchism is certainly not left-wing. who will redistribute wealth when there is no state?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: wilshire]
    #5346916 - 02/27/06 07:57 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

anarchism is certainly not left-wing. who will redistribute wealth when there is no state?



Did you not read my post? Left-wing anarchists do not want some governing body to "redistribute" the wealth. They want to destroy the institutions which create the wealth gap in the first place.


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