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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#5333203 - 02/23/06 09:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The_Red_Crayon said: If abortion is illegal it turns something thats a legal buisness into a crime(sounds like something else huh?).Woman will just have backalley abortions and leave discarded fetus's... Police investigation is tied up to catch women who leave behind discarded fetuses and throw them in jail further costing taxpayers way more money then simply having a doctor stick a vacuum tube in her vagina.
If murder is illegal, people will do it anyway. the cops will have to investigate more and the hitmen won't be able tojust buy nice silenced sniper rifles to murder people with. What a waste of taxpayer dollars OMG!
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Not only that but illegal abortions kill hundreds of women a year.
Thats the dumbest thing I've heard today. Gold star for you. Illegal abortions kill thousands of people a year...
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To me this isnt a morality issue its a issue of individual rights concerning whether a woman can decide when or not to bring a child into this world.
Yea, thats the exact issue. What if she decides to have an abortion without the fathers permission?
What if the father gets a butchers knife and cuts the baby out in her sleep, should he be charged with murder?
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
#5333206 - 02/23/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: To me, the abortion issue has nothing to do with rights. It's a simple matter of what works and what doesn't work. If abortions became illegal, women would just turn to black market abortionists, putting themselves in danger, along with the fetuses. The money that it would take to enforce a ban on abortion would be enoromous. I feel that money would be better spent providing alternatives to abortion, by streamlining the adoption process, and helping people in poverty.
If you really want to make a difference, instead of such feel-good things as "helping people", why not do mandatory sterilizations on people who are in poverty or who aren't able to pass a simple IQ test?
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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heidegger
Stranger

Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: MisterMyco]
#5334094 - 02/24/06 04:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think the pro-abortion / anti-abortion discussions are so horrible and polemic ('What if the father gets a butchers knife and cuts the baby out in her sleep?' - my god) because it mixes up ethical questions with ontological questions.
The real core of the discussion is the ontological question: Is the developing fetus a human being in the same way we are human beings? If we can agree that yes, it is, almost everyone would also agree that abortion is wrong. If we can agree that no, it is not, almost everyone would agree that abortion is not that bad. A third answer can of course be that it cannot be decided and we have no means of ever arriving at a conclusion.
In most discussions like these, we have a participiant A that answers the ontological question with yes, and another participiant that answers the ontolgical question with no, but they are unaware about their difference. They try to argue on an ethical level (it's immoral! no it's not immoral!) or a practical level (murder cannot be justified by anything! But think about all the woman that might die in illegal abortions!) or on an ontological level that lies besides the core ontological questions (it's murder! no it's not murder!).
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: MisterMyco]
#5334431 - 02/24/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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MisterMyco said: If you really want to make a difference, instead of such feel-good things as "helping people", why not do mandatory sterilizations on people who are in poverty or who aren't able to pass a simple IQ test?
1. Because it would be too Nazi-esque. 2. Helping people is a virtue, and helping the poor would alleviate other problems such as crime. 3. It would be a waste of taxpayer money. 4. What about people who escape from poverty? Do we then have to de-sterilize them? 5. Not all people who have abortions are poor or unintelligent.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
#5334467 - 02/24/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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For me, there is an easy answer to the whole abortion debate...
When the country is split 50/50 on something, then regardless of how we feel personally, we must err on the side of freedom and leave responsible adults to decide what is right and what is wrong as it applies to them.
I personally see abortion as murder. However, half the population does not. Therefore, although I am pro-life, I support the pro-choice abortion movement. Rather than trying to force my moral values upon others through legistlation, I would much rather teach others, leading by example.
I would also ask MDs that perform abortions to re-read the Oath of Hippocrates that they took when becoming doctors: Quote:
I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.
I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.
I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.
A final thought... if I push to outlaw abortions, thus forcing a woman that wants an abortion to the black market, am I any less guilty if that woman dies from the illegal abortion than I would have been had the fetus died from a legal abortion? I can pretend that I am doing Gods work and saving the lives of unborn babies, but at what expense?
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: MisterMyco]
#5335820 - 02/24/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thats the dumbest thing I've heard today. Gold star for you. Illegal abortions kill thousands of people a year...
Sorry didnt realize i missed a hyperbole train and made a little mistake. Pretty sad however if thats the "dumbest" thing you've heard all today. I guess you must sit around and theorize about quantum physics.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
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Loc: To the limit!
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Seuss]
#5337265 - 02/25/06 07:20 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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So if half the population thought child molesting was all right just as long as it was your own kids you were molesting, you would go along with that.
I think the real solution is probably cultural rather than legal. Sex in our culture needs to focus less on putting peni into vaginae. If the guys would just learn to eat some pussy we wouldn't have these kinds of problems.
Also, maybe we could let them toss our salads once in a while.

Hey, you can't get pregnant that way... and it's dishwasher safe!
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Seuss]
#5337345 - 02/25/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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When the country is split 50/50 on something
Is it really split 50-50? Or does the massive majority support abortion whilst a very vocal, powerful minority of simple-minded fundamentalist christians oppose it?
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Alex213]
#5337354 - 02/25/06 08:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Alex213 said: When the country is split 50/50 on something
Is it really split 50-50? Or does the massive majority support abortion whilst a very vocal, powerful minority of simple-minded fundamentalist christians oppose it?
I'll try to find statistics, but I know that a very very large amount of Americans are against abortion. It's not just Christian fundamentalists who make up 5% of the population.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5337852 - 02/25/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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RandalFlagg said:
Quote:
Alex213 said: When the country is split 50/50 on something
Is it really split 50-50? Or does the massive majority support abortion whilst a very vocal, powerful minority of simple-minded fundamentalist christians oppose it?
I'll try to find statistics, but I know that a very very large amount of Americans are against abortion. It's not just Christian fundamentalists who make up 5% of the population.
Actually, very few Americans are against abortion in all cases. However, there are also very few who support abortion in all cases. The majority support abortion in certain circumstances.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
#5337856 - 02/25/06 12:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I support more father and parental rights, guess that makes me an inbetweener.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
#5337882 - 02/25/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Actually, very few Americans are against abortion in all cases. However, there are also very few who support abortion in all cases. The majority support abortion in certain circumstances.
I wasn't referring to "special circumstances" (rape, incest, mother's life is in danger, etc..). I was talking about abortion in general. I do agree with you when you say that pro-choicers probably outnumber pro-lifers, but there are still a significant amount of pro-life people in America.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5338111 - 02/25/06 02:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think the phrase you are looking for is "abortion on demand." I think abortion is the last refuge of the incompetent and we should give the incompetent every opportunity possible to remain childless.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
#5338139 - 02/25/06 02:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: I think the phrase you are looking for is "abortion on demand." I think abortion is the last refuge of the incompetent and we should give the incompetent every opportunity possible to remain childless.
I agree. I always found it weird how the hardcore Right was often against income redistribution and also against abortion. Abortion is a great way to prevent income redistribution. When people who can't afford kids aren't having them anymore, income redistribution will go down.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5338168 - 02/25/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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They're not the hard core right. The true hard core right are the anarchists. The so-called religious right are liberals. Yet another group of douchebags who want to tell people what's good for them and how they should act in their own living rooms. Liberals.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
#5338175 - 02/25/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Main Entry: lib?er?al?ism Pronunciation: 'li-b(&-)r&-"li-z&m Function: noun 1 : the quality or state of being liberal 2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
#5338191 - 02/25/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's pretty funny
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: zappaisgod]
#5338192 - 02/25/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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What's funny is the way you totally redefined the word "liberal" to be synonymous with "authoritarian."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Silversoul]
#5338243 - 02/25/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: What's funny is the way you totally redefined the word "liberal" to be synonymous with "authoritarian."
Funny #1
"c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties"
Funny #2
"d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party "
"c" seems to be in direct conflict with "d", and "a" and "b" are jargon.
If you can't see the humor well than I'm sorry
"Can y'laugh till yer weak on yer knees If you can't, I'm sorry `cause that's all I wanna know" FZ.
What was that from anyway?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: South Dakota Senate passes abortion ban bill [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#5344212 - 02/27/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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> So if half the population thought child molesting was all right just as long as it was your own kids you were molesting, you would go along with that.
We are in the land of reality, not the land of pretend. In the land of pretend, yes, if half the population thought child molestation was ok, then I would accept it, though not agree with it. However, we are not in the land of pretend, and there is no way in the world that half the population is going to agree that child molestation is acceptable. This is a silly analogy.
> Is it really split 50-50?
I use the 50/50 roughly. My guess is that I am not too far off, though I would enjoy seeing numbers if anybody has them.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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