|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
|
That is to say, the psychological is an effect - the effect of unchanged pure Consciousness 'interfacing' (to use a modern term) with physical-neurological structures in biological entities.
But, HOW do these two substances interact? How does this mind-stuff causally effected the brain and visa-versa?
Consciousness does not have extension in space-time
'Consciousness' is not emergent, it can be reduced to brain-states and some of it already has.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/27/06 02:46 PM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Sclorch]
#5345662 - 02/27/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sclorch said: Meaning: more gobbledy gook.
Here's the persistent cycle: 1. Make claim. 2. Be asked questions. 3. Make more claims as to why you cannot answer clearly. 4. Repeat.
Actually, in this case, step 2 came first, which is why I was so hesitant to answer it in the first place. Then you guys get all high and mighty about how I'm just spouting nonsense when I told you from the start that it defied my ability to explain it.
--------------------
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
#5345667 - 02/27/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Fun, isn't it?
Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/27/06 02:51 PM)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
|
Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Fun, isn't it?
For you, maybe. To me, it just looks like a childish ego game.
--------------------
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
#5345702 - 02/27/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Childish ego game? No wonder you're not havin fun. Stop sitting in the stands mentally hurtling down maledictions at the players and try playing the game, dude.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/27/06 03:05 PM)
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: we are first and foremost Consciousness, in which mind and matter exist. In fact, from the same Gnostic perspective, the infrasructure of existence is not matter (matter is derivative of pure energy at the Big Bang, which is derivative of an Unknown), but Consciousness.
But it sounds to me like you are advocating the ole Primacy of Consciousness.
To be conscious is to be aware [of something]. One can not be aware without something to be aware of. In other words, a consciousness without anything to be conscious of is not a consciousness. Nor can a consciousness be aware of itself and claim to be independent of existence, because if a consciousness is aware of itself, then it must itself exist and be an existent.
The truth is that Existence is primary.
To grasp the notion that existence exists, means to grasp the fact that nature, i.e., the universe as a whole, cannot be created or annihilated, that it cannot come into or go out of existence. Whether its basic constituent elements are atoms, or subatomic particles, or yet some undiscovered forms of energy, it is not ruled by a consciousness or by will or by chance, but by the Law of Identity. All the countless forms, motions, combinations and dissolutions of elements within the universe - from a floating speck of dust to the formation of a galaxy to the emergence of life - are caused and determined by the identities of the elements involved. Nature is the metaphysically given - i.e., the nature of nature is outside the power of any volition.
"Creation" does not [and metaphysically cannot] mean the power to bring something into existence and out of nothing. "Creation" means the power to bring into existence an arrangement [or combination or integration] of natural elements that had not existed before. [This is also true of any human product, scientific or esthetic: man's imagination is nothing more than the ability to rearrange the things he has observed in reality.] The best and briefest identification of volitionary power in regard to nature is Francis Bacon's "Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."
In essence, it is perfectly logical and reasonable to extend the observation that we as volitional, sentient beings have consciousness as a product of this Earth's existence, to the entire Universe itself. Consciousness can not exist without reality. Reality can exist without consciousness.
i dont see how that goes against what markos said. he simply has taken it one step further.
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Deviate]
#5345761 - 02/27/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Markos is arguing the primacy of consciousness. Skorpivo is arguing the primacy of existence.
"Consciousness can not exist without reality." - Skorpivo
"...the infrasructure of existence is not matter... but Consciousness." - Markos
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
|
in markos's theory consciousness is a property of the single supreme being, "Brahman" in hindu thought. in other words markos doesn't contend consciousness can exist without reality, he is simply not a materialist. consciousness existing without reality doesn't make sense and is not what he means.
Edited by Deviate (02/27/06 04:19 PM)
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Deviate]
#5346294 - 02/27/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Consciousness IS Reality. Reality IS Consciousness.
Consciousness is modern for Spirit. Spirit is archaic for Consciousness.
In Humans, Consciousness includes: Unconsciousness - Subconsciousness - Consciousnness - Superconsciousness. Superconsciousness can provide awareness of Reality.
It is true that I have learned tremendously from Hindu thought, and one of their most profound doctrines is that Brahman - Ultimate Reality - has aspects that are Personal and Impersonal, namely Saguna Brahman [God-with-attributes] and Nirguna Brahman [God-without -attributes]. The Buddha focused on Nirguna Brahman and reinterpreted the Impersonal in terms of the subjective Human factor (Nirvana) or the Objective factor (Sunyata). Together, I would add that Ultimate Reality is Transpersonal in that it embodies the Personal and the Impersonal, but transcends both.
'God,' an unfortunate English rendering of a number of Hebrew Divine Names into one word (similar to the several Greek words into our singular word - 'love'), is 'at least' Personal in the metaphysical role of Creator, but this does not refer to a mythological creation of Humankind in the past. It refers to the notion that Human 'beings' partake of 'God' or pure Consciousness in every moment of existence. It means that phenomenal existence arises moment-to-moment from the center of every atom, so-to-speak. It suggests that the forces within the atom (at-'om') emerge from the Ultimate substratum of Existence as part of the Great Chain of Being (that Ken Wilber has spoken of so much), and that the Ultimate Substratum of Reality is indivisibly simple and Unitary.
Such assertions cannot be touched by rational analysis because the Object is without part or dimension. It is the 'eye' which sees, but which cannot be seen. It is the Awareness behind the limited awareness of 'I,' and It can be Experienced in one's 'I,' but not by one's 'I' because the finite 'I' is annihilated when it becomes 'filled' with Infinite Awareness. Thus, the mystic Experience is essentially, God Experiencing God 'within' the Human awareness. It is the tautological Experience of 'I AM That I AM,' within ourselves. These are mystic statements, not scientific statements. The Reality in question may be available to Human Consciousness, but only because Human Consciousness is co-extensive with, and derivative of Infinite Consciousness. This goes way beyond St. Anselm's claim that we couldn't even have the idea of God unless God existed. It is only conceptually different from Buddhist assertions that the ego is illusory. We are the Ocean itself, not the individual waves that come into being and go out of being. THAT is the illusion. The Realization is Enlightenment, it is Gnosis.
Reality = Truth. Truth = Reality.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
#5346484 - 02/27/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I've had incidents where I saw the world around me as a Gnostic prison controlled by a feeling of evil, while above I could almost see some sort of Sophia-like God/ Goddess looking down on my material form. I've also had other experiences such as astral projection, ego dissolution, visions of ancient Egyptian pharaohs, feelings of an impending apocalypse, communications with plant entities...
All of my experiences have either been in dreams or under the influence of drugs, though. I've never had a mystical experience under completely sober/ conscious circumstances.
However, I don't believe they were anything more than chemicals interfering with the brain, or, as Markos calls it, "crude materialism." I am a crude materialist in every sense of the word, and believe that my delusions of God simply were chemically-caused interferences with my brain's normal perception of reality.
Quote:
Has your experience influenced your beliefs?
Sure hasn't, except now I appreciate the sheer power of the brain more. It's a wonder that a dome-shaped organ bouncing around in our skull can create such a world.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
|
|
Consciousness IS Reality. Reality IS Consciousness.
You are dropping the context of what consciousness actually is and does. Consciousness is the faculty which perceives that which exists; it identifies existents. That is its definition: that is what it does [what we observe it doing]. More specifically, it takes in sensory data, automatically transforms it into percepts, identifies the percepts, and then internally manipulates the data.
Consciousness exists as a specific type of existent with a specific identity. To claim that it does any thing other than what we see it doing is completely arbitrary and without merit.
Consciousness is the faculty of perception. Thus, it is a part of reality - but by no means is our faculty of perception any more than what it actually does - and precisely what it is, is directly correlated to what our brain does. And by no means do I imply or follow the notion that consciousness and brain are two seperate substances that "interact" with each other. There is no more "interaction" between the mind and the brain than there is between vision and the eyes, or between hearing and the ears; nor could there be, as this would imply that the mind exists independently of the brain, which would, in turn, imply that cognition can take place without any brain or sensory receptors, i.e., without any physical means or method of cognition. The only way that you can have an "interaction" between two things is if they exist independently of each other. You wouldn't say that there is an interaction between the stomach and digestion, for example, because digestion depends on the stomach.
Consciousness is simply a manifestation of brain activity. That doesn't mean, however, that mind is not efficacious or that mental activity is simply an epiphenomenon of brain activity, which is the conclusion that dualists are prone to draw from this analysis. To say that consciousness is a manifestation of brain activity does not imply that we don't control our mind's activity. Since the mind and the brain are one, to control one's mind is to control one's brain and vice-versa. Mental activity is simply brain activity experienced from an internal, rather than an external perspective.
It suggests that the forces within the atom (at-'om') emerge from the Ultimate substratum of Existence as part of the Great Chain of Being (that Ken Wilber has spoken of so much), and that the Ultimate Substratum of Reality is indivisibly simple and Unitary.
Overlooking the arbitrariness and unverifiable premise of such notion, why can't this substratum be some form of energy or meta-energy that is something else entirely? The Ultimate Substratum of Reality just has to be consciousness? I've found it rather humorous that many new agers concerned with humility find the nerve to believe in such borderline megalomaniacal notions rooted in the PoC.
Reality = Truth. Truth = Reality.
Reality precedes "truth", much as the premise precedes the proof. There can be no "truths" in relation to a consciousness with no reality by which to refer, just as there can be no proofs in relation to a consciousness with no premise by which to refer.
Ergo, existence exists, and is primary.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
|
SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
#5346779 - 02/27/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Then you guys get all high and mighty about how I'm just spouting nonsense
Says the mystic who claims to have divine revelation and professes to hold vague, higher transcendental truths that are beyond reason and incommunicable to us non-mystics back here on earth.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
|
You can limit your definition of Consciousness to psychic or psychophysical phenomena if you want to. That is your choice. I see the word as a modern synonym of Spirit, and I identify it with God. I share this perspective with Advaita philosophy (and Sri Ramana Maharshi's Jnana Yoga in particular), with Western Gnostic philosophy, and with other streams of mystic thought that I'll not waste time expounding on. You are free to live your life based on your perceptions, and I am free (and often ecstatic) to live my life immersed in mine. OOBEs have convinced me that Human consciousness can exist is subtle sheaths, astral bodies, as a field effect - independently of the physical body. I have built my weltanschauung on non-ordinary reality, and I've taken it from there. There is no going back, and hopefully, no return to this plane at death.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/28/06 05:27 AM)
|
Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
|
|
Markos i think you are mispelling Sri Ramana Maharishi's title, i've studied his teachings extensively and i've always seen it spelled "Sri Ramana Maharshi".
|
ClammyJoe
Azurescen Head



Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 3,691
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Deviate]
#5347527 - 02/27/06 10:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
On Mushrooms, I get a sense that I myself am a god, a god of my own mind and space, and a god of nature.... Strange?
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Deviate]
#5348336 - 02/28/06 05:28 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Deviate said: Markos i think you are mispelling Sri Ramana Maharishi's title, i've studied his teachings extensively and i've always seen it spelled "Sri Ramana Maharshi".
Noted and corrected, thank you (still, 'Great Rishi')
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
|
|
> St. Paul's account of having been "caught up to the third heaven," and of having heard things which were "unlawful to utter"
Markos, can you elaborate on this? Where can I find more information... specifically, the last part of the quote, "having heard things which were unlawful to utter". I am mainly interested in the meaning of "unlawful" in this context to see if it matches up with my own experiences. Is "unlawful" used in the sense of one being told/instructed not to do so, or is "unlawful" used in the sense that doing so would be impossible (within our reality), or would somehow "break the rules" that govern our reality? In my case, "things" would imply the name of ...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Seuss]
#5350664 - 02/28/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: > St. Paul's account of having been "caught up to the third heaven," and of having heard things which were "unlawful to utter"
II Corinthians 12:1-4 My Revised Standard Version footnotes this "The third heaven," the highest bliss...4: Things that cannot be told, because they are too sacred." This says little about Paul's experience, although I'll add that the body of knowledge that contains references to the First, Second and Third Heavens belong to Gnostic literature. Typically, Gnostics spoke of seven heavens and the eighth called the Ogdoad, which was the 'Fullness' [Pleroma] of the Godhead. However, the NIV says "He heard things that man is not permitted to tell," and again, the language is deceptively personified as if Paul heard certain 'words' or was 'told' certain knowledge. It must be remembered that in scriptural literature it is important to keep ever in mind that 'states of being' or 'levels of consciousness' are frequently personified. Even in Gnostic literature, the 'Aeons' are sometimes personified beings and other times they seem like 'spaces' or 'cosmic places.'
The New International Version says "The third heaven designates a place beyond the immediate heaven of earth's atmosphere and beyond the further heaven of outer space and its constellations into the presence of God himself." The mythic-metaphsical nature can be remembered when one considers that God is written of as a king on a throne, in heaven. Such archetypal imagery was never intended to be literal even when it was composed.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Seuss]
#5350666 - 02/28/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Edit: double post
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
#5360363 - 03/03/06 01:16 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Paradigm said: Who here has had some mystical experience? Either tripping or sober. Did you feel that you were seeing/experiencing God? Has your experience influenced your beliefs? Do you conseder your experience to justify your beliefs?
I've had two major trips that strongly influenced my beliefs. One was on five grams of mushrooms. I experienced a sense of oneness with the universe. I felt a sort of ultimate reality that could be called God, or the One. After that, I came to understand what is meant we people say we are all one.
The other trip was on approx. 3 hits of acid, plus an E pill. During my peak, I closed my eyes and saw the face of Jesus. I felt the power of Christ come over me, feeling a sense of unconditional brotherly love towards everyone. That night, I accepted Christ as my lord and savior, and feel that this experience profoundly changed my heart. I became interested in gnosticism after this, and found much wisdom in what I've read about it.
So anyway, share your mystical experiences with everyone, and how they affected you.
My first experience of gnosis took place in January of 2002 on a very large dose of mushrooms. Since then I have had the exact same experience on LSD, mushrooms, and while sober/meditating. These experiences define who I am. My gnosis is my comforter, and a Mercy revealed out of Mercy. I sought God in my heart through the literal idea first. I over came the diatribes and psychological dogma of the exoterics and kept diving deeper. I was rightly rewarded with the peek of the unseen I so desperately craved. Now I am waiting, waiting for my exodus from this world and for my seperation to end.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
|