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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337023 - 02/25/06 02:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Our senses are our only way of experiencing the world.

Agreed, but what you're describing is an emotion.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5337026 - 02/25/06 02:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)


I don't disagree that the feeling of divineness exists, but I do disagree that this feeling justifies assuming experiences in which this sensation is present are truely representational of divinity. Feeling depressed doesn't mean the external world is depressed, and likewise, because a certian chemical gives you the sensation of deep insight or illumination doesn't mean what you're experiencing is truely divine.





why should feeling depressed mean the external world is depressed? since when are we talking about the world?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Deviate]
    #5337030 - 02/25/06 02:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It was an analogy to help illustrate my point.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/25/06 02:27 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5337032 - 02/25/06 02:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Our senses are our only way of experiencing the world.

Agreed, but what you're describing is an emotion.



It's more intuition than emotion, actually.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5337041 - 02/25/06 02:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
It was an analogy to help illustrate my point.




i understand that but my point is that i never made any claims about anything external.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Posts: 4,587
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
    #5337048 - 02/25/06 02:39 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Intuition in what sense?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5337060 - 02/25/06 02:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Intuition in what sense?



Intuition in the sense of "knowing" without knowing. A sort of "revelation," if you will.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
    #5342566 - 02/26/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Meaning: more gobbledy gook.



Here's the persistent cycle:
1. Make claim.
2. Be asked questions.
3. Make more claims as to why you cannot answer clearly.
4. Repeat.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Sclorch]
    #5342719 - 02/26/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
Meaning: more gobbledy gook.



Here's the persistent cycle:
1. Make claim.
2. Be asked questions.
3. Make more claims as to why you cannot answer clearly.
4. Repeat.





Par for the course in mysticism.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Silversoul]
    #5343069 - 02/26/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Correct me if I am wrong: You had an experience with strong religious/spiritual imagery and at sometime during this experience you had the feeling you knew it was undoubtedly divine?

"Early stages of diseases such as schizophrenia, are often accompanied by feelings of deep insight, mystical knowledge and religious experience." -- Shroomnoob


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5343146 - 02/26/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry, but that is just crude materialism. Chemicals do not 'give' consciousness. Chemicals might alter the way or the intesity in which mental phenomena are Witnessed. It is the Witness that constitutes Consciousness, and from a Gnostic perspective, we are first and foremost Consciousness, in which mind and matter exist. In fact, from the same Gnostic perspective, the infrasructure of existence is not matter (matter is derivative of pure energy at the Big Bang, which is derivative of an Unknown), but Consciousness. Not 'reason,' or what moderns call 'intellection,' but pure Consciousness before it is modified by its interface with biological-neuronal material structures into self-consciousness constitutes the 'Unmoved Mover.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5343197 - 02/26/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Speaking from my own Experience, as well as having studied a good deal of the classic literature on mysticism, there is this word - 'ineffable.' St. Paul's account of having been "caught up to the third heaven," and of having heard things which were "unlawful to utter," a major consensus is that 1) he was not having a mere [Psychic] Out-of-the-Body-Experience, but, 2) rather a mystical experience for which the poor translation suggests that he was prevented by divine beings or even God from revealing what he had heard. The word ineffable suggests that he was unable to use linear language and had an inadequate vocabulary to express his experience. Such is a common phenomenon among mystics, and the communication of such experiences comes by way of a life-style change and demonstartion of said change over the life-span, not by verbal description. Mystical experience changes things at a foundational level of being, not merely within the psychic/psychological apparatus.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5343220 - 02/26/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The word ineffable suggests that he was unable to use linear language and had an inadequate vocabulary to express his experience. Such is a common phenomenon among mystics




This could be said of any psychedelic experience.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5343338 - 02/26/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry, but that is just crude materialism.

Sure is.

Chemicals do not 'give' consciousness. Chemicals might alter the way or the intesity in which mental phenomena are Witnessed.

If 'consciousness' is not material, how would chemicals alter it? Do chemicals have an imperceptible duality?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5343384 - 02/26/06 10:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Sorry, but that is just crude materialism. Chemicals do not 'give' consciousness. Chemicals might alter the way or the intesity in which mental phenomena are Witnessed.



Still dishin' it out from that lofty perch?
Gnosticism? Complex, boring as fuck, and useless in the world of mud and grit.

How can you say with any authority that we AREN'T just a bunch of chemicals? Maybe God is a chemist and we're a little more than a Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction. It'd fit well with all that fractal/holographic/compatibilist bullshit.

I think we ARE just a bunch of chemicals... chemicals that gained sentience. THAT is magic. The magic of biochemistry.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5343392 - 02/26/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Do chemicals have an imperceptible duality?



It is not your place to question. It's ineffable. /excuse


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: Sclorch]
    #5343493 - 02/26/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I forgot, how silly of me! Since it is not linguistically possible to explain, perhaps someone could anwser with an interpretive dance.


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Invisibleraytrace
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Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5344159 - 02/27/06 04:07 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ordinary experience is mystical as long as one refrains from categorization (mathematics). how can it not be?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5344273 - 02/27/06 05:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Chemicals alter the 'modifications' (to use Patanjali's classic Yoga terminology) of the 'vrittis' or 'mind stuff.' That is to say, the psychological is an effect - the effect of unchanged pure Consciousness 'interfacing' (to use a modern term) with physical-neurological structures in biological entities. Consciousness exists a priori, and is not characterized as material/matter. Matter has extension in space-time, Consciousness does not have extension in space-time. Even compared to energy such as light, one can measure the speed of light, or the wavelengths of light, but Consciousness cannot be so measured. One can record psycho-somatic response times (the further interface between the psychic and the physical domains), but pure Consciousness is Primary.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Mystical Experience Survey [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5344306 - 02/27/06 06:23 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

we are first and foremost Consciousness, in which mind and matter exist. In fact, from the same Gnostic perspective, the infrasructure of existence is not matter (matter is derivative of pure energy at the Big Bang, which is derivative of an Unknown), but Consciousness.

But it sounds to me like you are advocating the ole Primacy of Consciousness.

To be conscious is to be aware [of something]. One can not be aware without something to be aware of. In other words, a consciousness without anything to be conscious of is not a consciousness. Nor can a consciousness be aware of itself and claim to be independent of existence, because if a consciousness is aware of itself, then it must itself exist and be an existent.

The truth is that Existence is primary.


To grasp the notion that existence exists, means to grasp the fact that nature, i.e., the universe as a whole, cannot be created or annihilated, that it cannot come into or go out of existence. Whether its basic constituent elements are atoms, or subatomic particles, or yet some undiscovered forms of energy, it is not ruled by a consciousness or by will or by chance, but by the Law of Identity. All the countless forms, motions, combinations and dissolutions of elements within the universe - from a floating speck of dust to the formation of a galaxy to the emergence of life - are caused and determined by the identities of the elements involved. Nature is the metaphysically given - i.e., the nature of nature is outside the power of any volition.

"Creation" does not [and metaphysically cannot] mean the power to bring something into existence and out of nothing. "Creation" means the power to bring into existence an arrangement [or combination or integration] of natural elements that had not existed before. [This is also true of any human product, scientific or esthetic: man's imagination is nothing more than the ability to rearrange the things he has observed in reality.] The best and briefest identification of volitionary power in regard to nature is Francis Bacon's "Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."

In essence, it is perfectly logical and reasonable to extend the observation that we as volitional, sentient beings have consciousness as a product of this Earth's existence, to the entire Universe itself. Consciousness can not exist without reality. Reality can exist without consciousness.




--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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