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agar
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Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. 1
#5325700 - 02/21/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Since another thread on the subject has turned rather argumentative.
I thought I would throw in my $0.02 cents, in a fresh thread.
I have sterilized (as in PC'ed for 120 minutes @ 15/18 psi) compost, cow manure & straw based substrates, h/poo & combinations of all the above before.
But, it was done in large filter/patch autoclave bags.
Which, after cooling to room temps, each bag was spawned with about 2 quarts (+/-) of fully colonized wbs/grains from colonized grain spawn bags, in sort of a G2G fashion. Except it was G2S (grain to substrate)one dumped into the other in a F/H.
The bags were kneaded to distribute the spawn evenly in the substrate bags, then impulse sealed, incubated & fully colonized.
The bags were opened, emptied into sanitized trays, kneaded into the shape of the tray. Trays were then incubated 2 days, so the substrate could knit back together, then a casing cover was added, incubated a few more days, until a good spread of rhizo's surfaced. Then, the trays were fruited out, no different than any other.
   
P. Cubensis do not need diversified microbial activity in a substrate, or casing cover in order to induce/initiate pinning and/or fruiting.
"Most beneficial microbes growing during Phase II (composting) are thermophilic, in other words they are heat loving microbes.
Since microbes get their food and water from compost substrate there needs to be adequate supplies of both ingredients to complete the composting process. Microbes, like people, need carbohydrates, nitrogen, elements, vitamins, fats and lipids, etc., as food. During Phase I microbes grow and multiply generating heat as they consume food and water.
As long as water, oxygen and food are available they continue developing to a maximum population at the highest temperature they can tolerate. Then the self sustaining chemical reactions take over which continue to release heat, CO2 and water vapor. The mechanical turning and mixing of the compost pile should expose all material to these biological and chemical processes.
Fresh water or recycled runoff water is added to replenish the water lost during the process. Water is added to maintain the moisture in the compost substrate for these biological and chemical reactions to take place. Phase I composting continues with the formation of ammonia and carbohydrates that the mushroom will eventually use as food. So why not just stop the process after Phase I and spawn the material? Obviously that does not work.
We all realize that the mushroom does not like ammonia, so we continue indoors with Phase II composting.
Some of these organisms can be consider "beneficial microbes" that provide food for the mushroom. Others are "unfavorable microbes" that compete for food or may cause disease. The mushroom grower has the job of caring for the good microbes and eliminating the bad microbes.
The chemical characteristics of the raw ingredients are converted by microbes and chemical reactions into the specific substrate the mushroom uses as a food source. Therefore it is important to manage these good microbes in compost substrate to achieve productive crops." source ~ http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/PhaseII.htm RECOMMENDED READING
In effect, optimal composting conditions a bulk substrate as food for mycelium, removes ammonia & competing/competitive microorganisms.
Once done, at least in my humble opinion ~ it makes no difference if the substrate is sterilized.
EXCEPTING, if sterilized, the substrate must be treated as sterile. Otherwise, it is/can become an open breeding ground for competitor (contaminates).
Consequently, I used large filter/patch spawn bags, in order to protect the sterilized substrate from contamination.
Once, optimal amounts of spawn is added, and fully colonizes the bagged substrate. The mycelium itself protects it. As it has completely colonized the substrate, digesting & eating all other microbes.
Simply stated, sterilizing a substrate KILLS beneficial microbes, as well as all other competitor microbes.
Sterilizing does not remove the corpses of those microbes. Which remain as easily digested optimal nutrients, for mycelium.
Ponder that we condition our food, such as porterhouse steaks, by cooking them.
Meaning, a steer is killed, aged, butchered, cooked, served, eaten & digested with ease. Sitting a live kicking steer on a banquet table, with the intent of eating it, would be a far more arduous task & not easy.
Mycelium can eat & digest nutrients, DEAD OR ALIVE. If they are dead, they don't put up a fight.
Pasteurization of a bulk substrate conditions it, to the degree that introduced spawn can effectively colonize it.
It does not make sense from a materials / labor / cost / time & ease of use basis to sterilize a substrate. In so far as doing so is not cost effective, in comparison to using well pasteurized substrate. That can be used, without the additional time /labor & materials costs involved, in doing so.
Moreover, new hands seldom have large filter/patch autoclave bags, large PC's, flow hoods and/or the experience to effectively use a sterilized bulk substrate
Just my humble opinion. Others may differ & more power to those who do.
Edited by agar (02/21/06 08:18 PM)
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Snaggletooth
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5325725 - 02/21/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Excellent Read thanks for putting it the time..... 
But if one has Quote:
filter/patch autoclave bags, large PC's, flow hoods and/or the experience to effectively used a sterilized bulk substrate
Would this be worthwhile to try it, for the newbie?
Though the link does not work
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MisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5325742 - 02/21/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't see WHY a sterilized substrate must be treated differently than a pasteurized substrate. The only difference is that one (allegedly) allows some sort of benefical microorganisms to live that help SOMEHOW in the mushroom life cycle. If you can cite which microorganisms these are or how they help, I'd be glad to engage in discussion about them. If you can't, it just sounds like voodoo superstition, not to be rude.
Now, if their aren't any identifiable microorganisms present, then whats the big deal with contamination? WHY should they be treated differently? Both are devoid of living organisms that could offer benefit, so why treat them differently?
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5325754 - 02/21/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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By the way, I totally agree about the ease of pasteurization. If I can pasteurize five trays worth of substrate at one go, I'll do it. It's just much easier than sterilizing. However, that doesn't mean that sterilization wouldn't work. I sterilize grains and pasteurize/sterilize compost that I make to ensure that it's suitable for secondary composers, re: Mycelia.
So, I'd say pasteurization, but not because it preserves any specific life forms, just because it's easier to toss a pillowcase into a pot of hot water than to load it into jars, PC, etc.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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agar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5325803 - 02/21/06 08:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>>>>Though the link does not work<<<<<<
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/PhaseII.htm
I fixed it. It works NOW.
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Snaggletooth
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5325840 - 02/21/06 08:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Damn that's a long read, might as well start now thanks for the info....
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hyphae
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325856 - 02/21/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: The only difference is that one (allegedly) allows some sort of benefical microorganisms to live that help SOMEHOW in the mushroom life cycle.
From everything I've every read over the last 20+ years although certain species require certain microbes to fruit cubies do not. I've also understood that certain beneficial microbes help fight off nonbeneficial bacteria and molds, now I can't pull any info out of my ass right now as this has been from what I've read over many years. The point is with cubies the beneficials are not helping in the mushrooms life cycle as much as it is keeping the substrate healthier for digestion. My .02
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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FooMan



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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5325872 - 02/21/06 08:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said:

Since another thread on the subject has turned rather argumentative.
What thread?
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MisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: hyphae]
#5325889 - 02/21/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
hyphae said: From everything I've every read over the last 20+ years although certain species require certain microbes to fruit cubies do not. I've also understood that certain beneficial microbes help fight off nonbeneficial bacteria and molds, now I can't pull any info out of my ass right now as this has been from what I've read over many years. The point is with cubies the beneficials are not helping in the mushrooms life cycle as much as it is keeping the substrate healthier for digestion. My .02
I agree, the firefang, and various other microorganisms, are vital to the life of a compost heap. They turn the lignins and other complex sugars into sugars more readily digested by the cubensis mycelia. However, after they've done their job and died off, they have no purpose other than as dead foodstuffs for the secondary decomposers to feed off of. This being said, it doesn't matter if you sterilize and kill everything because the firefang would be dead anyway.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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hyphae
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325904 - 02/21/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Agreed, I have too say either way works for me.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326052 - 02/21/06 09:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Was it all done infront of a flowhood?
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agar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326063 - 02/21/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: I don't see WHY a sterilized substrate must be treated differently than a pasteurized substrate. The only difference is that one (allegedly) allows some sort of benefical microorganisms to live that help SOMEHOW in the mushroom life cycle. If you can cite which microorganisms these are or how they help, I'd be glad to engage in discussion about them. If you can't, it just sounds like voodoo superstition, not to be rude.
Now, if their aren't any identifiable microorganisms present, then whats the big deal with contamination? WHY should they be treated differently? Both are devoid of living organisms that could offer benefit, so why treat them differently?
I am not going to argue the subject of this thread. I simply posted my experience & rationale. But, I am open to calm rational discussion(without VOODOO innuendo's).
An well pasteurized substrate, is alive with non-competitive (keyword) micro-organisms that do not interfere with mycelium colonization of that substrate, & will later serve as optimal nutrients for mycelium.
Those same non-competitive microbes also defend their turf, in~so~far as they themselves will overtake & digest competitive mold SPORES that they come in contact with.
Consequently, those beneficial microbes (in~so~far as they don't compete with mycelium & will serve as a nutrient source, for mycelium)serve as a quasi-defense mechanism against COMPETITIVE SPORES that come in contact with a pasteurized substrate.
Conversely, a fully sterilized substrate does not have that quasi-defense mechanism against COMPETITIVE SPORES.
Meaning, when a fully sterilized substrate, is exposed to open unfiltered air, COMPETITIVE spores have a far better chance of germinating & establishing themselves, on/within a sterilized substrate.
Once a competitive mold spore has germinated in a substrate, it simply grows to the degree it becomes a visible infection on the substrate. Resulting in ugly contamination & poor mushroom fruit harvests from an infected substrate.
I think you may misunderstand the term "beneficial microbes", as used in this instance.
In the composting process, beneficial microbes convert substances toxic to mushroom mycelium, into non-toxic substances, that mushroom mycelium can/will digest as nutrients.
Thereafter, those same beneficial microbes serve as another source of optimal nutrients for mushroom mycelium.
That is why they are deemed "beneficial".
 
Conversely, competitive microbes (contaminates) do nothing for mushroom mycelium & are able to effectively compete for nutrients, moisture & space in a substrate.
Meaning - competitive molds cause harm & detriment to mushroom mycelium & mushroom crops.

Verses
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326076 - 02/21/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The microbes dont help in the idea of directly aiding and facilitating mushroom growth. The idea of beneficial microbes to act as a buffer between the time of spawning to the time of active running. Aiding in the chances that the selected fungi are able to proliferate without the mean green or cobweb mold staking a clame.
But even then, even with sterility, even with every caution taken.....sometimes they get in!
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MisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326091 - 02/21/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said: An well pasteurized substrate, is alive with non-competitive (keyword) micro-organisms that do not interfere with mycelium colonization of that substrate, & will later serve as optimal nutrients for mycelium.
What organisms are those? Are these organisms actually growing inside the substrate block? If so, why don't we ever see or smell any of them? If they aren't growing, why would it matter if they are dead or alive?
Quote:
Those same non-competitive microbes also defend their turf, in~so~far as they themselves will overtake & digest competitive mold SPORES that they come in contact with.
I'm not sure that many organisms that survive pasteurization are this aggressive with foreign invaders. Most of the comments I've read about specific organisms deal with their ability to secrete antibodies into the substrate. Psilocybe mycelia, for example, excretes an antibiotic goo into the substrate to prevent certain organisms from taking hold. I'm still curious as to what these organisms are. If they really exist and you are sure of that, it shouldn't be too difficult to mention them. If they don't and you just believe that they do, well, no offense, but we are back to voodoo mythology.
Quote:
Consequently, those beneficial microbes (in~so~far as they don't compete with mycelium & will serve as a nutrient source, for mycelium)serve as a quasi-defense mechanism against COMPETITIVE SPORES that come in contact with a pasteurized substrate.
I don't currently have a digital camera, so I can't really do this experiment. If you'd culture some trichoderma and q-tip swab the green spores, then spread those spores throughout some pasteurized substrate, then spawn it and see that only mycelia lives, I might go along with it. If seems that you are saying that it would be impossible for a pasteurized substrate to contaminate unless a living organism were introduced to it. If thats true, I'd like to see some evidence.
Quote:
In the composting process, beneficial microbes convert substances toxic to mushroom mycelium, into non-toxic substances, that mushroom mycelium can/will digest as nutrients.
Most of the complex sugars aren't "toxic" to mushrooms, they just aren't digestable. Chitin, for example, isn't edible by cubensis mushrooms, but it can be broken down by primary decomposers so that the result is 'edible' by cubensis mycelia.
Quote:
Thereafter, those same beneficial microbes serve as another source of optimal nutrients for mushroom mycelium.
So the organisms are alive as the spawning takes place and they provide a living-barrier against spores, then the mycelia overtakes them and kills them, dissolving them to eat them? If mycelia can do this to living bacteria, why is bacteria a contaminant? I wasn't aware that cubensis mycelia had the ability to digest living organisms.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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agar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326112 - 02/21/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>But even then, even with sterility, even with every caution taken.....sometimes they get in! <<
True, either way, pasteurized, or sterilized.
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326124 - 02/21/06 09:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Just take a college class. Because your opening a can of worms non of us have the time or energy to teach you. Hell i don't have enough resources.
There are probably 100thousand types of bacteria out their. Each one can survive different climates. Ie the one that lives around vents in the bottom of the ocean a 1000 feet deep. Then there are ones that can and do live in your intestines.
Just like how some people survive jail and some don't. Competition of the fittest. Take a person out of their element and place them in another's "element" and see what happens.
Most mushrooms excrete a substance with alcohol key-tones. Those alcohol key-tones aid in the digestion and mobilization of nutrients.
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MisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326144 - 02/21/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHEIKofSHIITAKE said: Just take a college class. Because your opening a can of worms non of us have the time or energy to teach you. Hell i don't have enough resources.
I've taken a number of classes, thanks. I'd just like to know if people believe that certain microorganisms exist, what organisms they are. If they don't know, it's like saying that we should pray over our casings or sacrifice small animals to appease the gods. It's ignorance, pure and simple. Has nothing to do with science at all.
Note; I'm not saying that microorganisms DONT exist that help out with mushrooms life cycles, I'm just saying that I'd like a little more evidence before I jump on the wagon about them.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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agar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326153 - 02/21/06 09:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Psychrophiles -are bacteria that flourish at low temperatures. These bacteria prefer temperatures of approximately 55?F and will slowly decompose your compost even at temperatures of 0?F. Mesophiles - are bacteria that thrive at temperatures in the 70-90?F range, and survive temperatures of 40?F to 110?F. These aerobic bacteria do most of the work of decomposition.
The work of decomposition raises the temperature inside the pile. When it's too hot for the mesophiles, the thermophiles take over. Thermophiles - are bacteria that work in the high temperature range from 104?F to 200?F, but prefer temperatures between 105? and 140?F.
The high rate of decomposition will turn the mixture of organic materials in your pile to a uniform deep brown color. Thermophilic activity quickly raises the temperature in the pile to levels that kill most weed seed. In the home composting arena, we look for 3-5 days with pile temperatures of 131?F or higher to manage weed seeds.
They all do a job & God bless them for it.
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MisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326220 - 02/21/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I find it possible that certain thermophilic organisms would survive pasteurization, especially where the water temperature is kept lower than I usually keep mine (mine;180F, others150-170F). I'm just unsure if they really do much. I know that the cell walls of the actual spores are made with much tougher cellular sugar structures than the cell wall of a living organism, so I could see how organisms that feast on these tougher structures would destroy them, when a cubensis mycelia could not. These cell walls of spores also have proteins, which I would think would be more easily break down the proteins and other lipids.
I'm not trying to discount the theory, I personally always pasteurize bulk substrates. However, I'd like to know, just for scientific purposes, which organisms do exist. It's why I ordered cultures of firefang from actinomycetes associations (yea, weird that they exist...) and introduced them to my compost piles. I have a few piles that I keep mainly as "starter" for my other piles. When I make a new pile, I throw in a few shovels full of the fire-fang infested pile to "spawn" it. In the colder months, I just get a few 55 gallon rubbermaids, spawn the compost ingredients with the firefang and let it stay in the basement at about 50 degrees (beer lagering temperatures!).
I just didn't think that the firefang really prevented some sort of contamination. To be honest, I couldn't care less what grows in my outdoor compost piles, as long as it produces heat and breaks stuff down, I'm happy. The bad stuff doesn't survive pasteurization.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Rahz
Alive Again


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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326232 - 02/21/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>>>If they don't know, it's like saying that we should pray over our casings or sacrifice small animals to appease the gods. It's ignorance, pure and simple. Has nothing to do with science at all.
I would find it foolish to assume there are no living organisms in a low temp pasteurized substrate simply because we can't name them. It certainly adds weight to your argument, but to suggest that alone should supersede common knowledge is asking too much. As I said, I'll test and get results without ever knowing the names of what may or may not live through pasteurization. It should be much more definitive than the religions you speak of.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Rahz] 1
#5326242 - 02/21/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why not then break out the microsope and make liquid solutions of the compsts and fliter, then take a survey of whats left and living?
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Rahz
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326262 - 02/21/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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That's an excellent idea, but I've got to work with what I've got. I'm currently leeching un-composted hpoo. As soon as it dries, I can use it as a test subject. I can start the straw test tonight.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Rahz]
#5326271 - 02/21/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Use the water squeezed out of the substrate. If you do the tests with the microscope.
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agar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326290 - 02/21/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.mushroomcouncil.org/docs/AgaricusMushroomGrowingFinal.pdf Link above is a long good read on the subject matter. (I would call credible, given who they are)
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326297 - 02/21/06 10:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ha yeah i would also call them credible.
Why are we talking as if we are growing edibles anyway? lol
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agar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326303 - 02/21/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHEIKofSHIITAKE said: ha yeah i would also call them credible.
Why are we talking as if we are growing edibles anyway? lol
SUBSTRATE.
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MisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326306 - 02/21/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The people that wrote that document almost certainly aren't growing hallucinogenic mushrooms en masse. Most "real" mushroom growers I talk to don't like the guys that grow drug mushrooms.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326307 - 02/21/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ahh yes i almost forgot
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agar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326320 - 02/21/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: The people that wrote that document almost certainly aren't growing hallucinogenic mushrooms en masse. Most "real" mushroom growers I talk to don't like the guys that grow drug mushrooms.
It's about OPTIMAL MUSHROOM SUBSTRATE.
Not, the likes or dislikes of anyone.
(agar grumbles, thinking about using the "ignore feature" for the fist time in his tenure, here)
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326331 - 02/21/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i snorted lol
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326335 - 02/21/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ha ha ha most "real" cultivators started out the same way anyone here did. Do you know what Pauls child's name is?
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Hoss
Stranger


Registered: 06/13/05
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326359 - 02/21/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Actually, what is Paul's child's name?
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Hoss]
#5326364 - 02/21/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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AZUREUS ?
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Atheist Chat
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326368 - 02/21/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yea, I know. His comment alluded to the possibility that the authors of the document were saying agaricus but were really growing cubensis mushrooms, much the way that people here purchase certain goods or answer the question. I was telling him that the authors really were meaning agaricus and really did grow them.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5326380 - 02/21/06 10:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Snaggletooth said: AZUREUS ?
I think you got it right! cant remeber if its that or close to it.....brain fart
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326396 - 02/21/06 10:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHEIKofSHIITAKE said:
Quote:
Snaggletooth said: AZUREUS ?
I think you got it right! cant remeber if its that or close to it.....brain fart
I opened the Mush Cult book
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Atheist Chat
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326404 - 02/21/06 10:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: Yea, I know. His comment alluded to the possibility that the authors of the document were saying agaricus but were really growing cubensis mushrooms, much the way that people here purchase certain goods or answer the question. I was telling him that the authors really were meaning agaricus and really did grow them.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5326407 - 02/21/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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lol cheater! Mines 3000 miles away! But hey now me n Paul are almost neighbors!
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gourmetgrower
I'ze the milkmanwhat knocked upyer maw

Registered: 01/29/06 
Posts: 170
Loc: The Old West
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326457 - 02/21/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ahh... I dream of the day when I can afford a self-propelled compost turner.
-------------------- Howdy, boys! Let's get down to business. I got my colt and my schofield, and they's jist itchin to be broken in.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: gourmetgrower]
#5326466 - 02/21/06 11:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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pop a couple kids out
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gourmetgrower
I'ze the milkmanwhat knocked upyer maw

Registered: 01/29/06 
Posts: 170
Loc: The Old West
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: gourmetgrower]
#5326495 - 02/21/06 11:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hell, that'd probably be even more expensive, in the long run. Besides, my compost turner would BE my baby.
I'd nurture it, oil it, and tuck it into bed every night after ricking... lol.
-------------------- Howdy, boys! Let's get down to business. I got my colt and my schofield, and they's jist itchin to be broken in.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: gourmetgrower]
#5326506 - 02/21/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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im looking for a big hopper. That be my baby. sawdust all z way.
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MrMaddHatter
Dementia praecox


Registered: 06/07/02
Posts: 1,420
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326731 - 02/22/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
hyphae said: I've also understood that certain beneficial microbes help fight off nonbeneficial bacteria and molds, now I can't pull any info out of my ass right now as this has been from what I've read over many years. The point is with cubies the beneficials are not helping in the mushrooms life cycle as much as it is keeping the substrate healthier for digestion. My .02
Thats what I always believed.
I'm a pasteurization man all the way. Nothing wrong with sterilized bulk substrate, its just that its expensive to get a 55 gallon autoclave.
But a 55 gallon drum, and a propane burner..............is cheap.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MrMaddHatter]
#5326762 - 02/22/06 12:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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throw the lid back on and there you go a ghetto autoclave
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scatmanrav
Brainy Smurf

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5326771 - 02/22/06 12:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SHEIKofSHIITAKE said: throw the lid back on and there you go a ghetto autoclave
You need a few alcohol bottles on top too...
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: scatmanrav]
#5326787 - 02/22/06 12:59 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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hell yeah why not.
But seriously i do it like that! The trick is to let some air leak out of the seal. And use a lower heat. Cook till the water is just about gone. Barrels might want to bloat a bit but that happens after a lot of use over a few months.
____lid_______ ;;;;; gases 1 1 1 1 1 bags of 1 1 sub 1 1____________1 1__m_____m__1 bricks and water
Edited by SHEIKofSHIITAKE (02/22/06 01:07 AM)
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agar
old hand


Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 9,056
Loc: Somewhere Else
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: gourmetgrower]
#5326801 - 02/22/06 01:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
gourmetgrower said: Ahh... I dream of the day when I can afford a self-propelled compost turner.
Self power a garden type pitch fork, if need be. (good exercise, if you like that sort of thing)
 For little rows, rototillers work fairly well.
But, hell.
Buy a ranch/farm. With cattle, horses, chickens, hay Fields, winter rye, corn & vegetable crops, and all else involved, you would be in composting heaven. 
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
#5326882 - 02/22/06 01:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I run a few large compost heaps outside each summer and I just turn them by hand. I have about 8 spaces that are for compost heaps, when it's time to turn them, I just tear them down onto the space next to them and rebuild them. As stated before, I have one pile that I consider my "Starter" pile, that I mainly use for compost that is rich in the specific strain of actinomycetes that I purchased years back.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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lardnar
Pu Pu Platter


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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
#5327098 - 02/22/06 03:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: The people that wrote that document almost certainly aren't growing hallucinogenic mushrooms en masse. Most "real" mushroom growers I talk to don't like the guys that grow drug mushrooms.
What does the kind of mushroom grown have anything to do with the information on page 7 of the mentioned PDF file? I admire your quest in questioning things that are generally accepted without justification but it seems you are veering from that and instead trying to be difficult?
-------------------- If your soul is sence this life is lost ...
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: lardnar]
#5327862 - 02/22/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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for egos sake
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
#5327943 - 02/22/06 12:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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3000 miles is a good excuses 
Honestly most of this decision is over my head, but I have found this be a good thread.
Attack and defend with knowledge 
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Atheist Chat
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5328144 - 02/22/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>>>Attack and defend with knowledge
Exactly right! Knowledge, whether gained through reading, or experience can speak for itself. Obfuscating, lopsided comparisons, and narrow tangents don't cut it. The childish ego is obvious, and while quite bemusing, it doesn't help an argument, or create anything productive.
So I've got these two jars... filled with straw. Both were then filled with water. Lids with a hole in the middle, and rims were applied. One jar went into the PC and sat there at 15 psi for 1.5 hours. One jar with a meat thermometer inserted into the hole was placed in a pot of water and pasturized at 150 for 1.5 hours. The pasturized sub was drained immedeatley, the PCed sub was drained after cooling to 150. I thought of leaving the water in both jars, but the PCed straw water would likely contaminate faster simply due to more nutrients being leeched out. Once cooled to room temperature, the lids were removed and the jars were placed in my back room, several feet from one another, in the same area I store my bale of hay. Now I wait to see what happens.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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cappa
Nerd
Registered: 02/12/06
Posts: 854
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Rahz]
#5329441 - 02/22/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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What I want to know Agar, is if you specifically doned that shiny watch and ring(after a little polishing) just to dig your hand into a pile of poo and take a pic!
~Cappa.
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musher_420
Stranger

Registered: 08/01/05
Posts: 2,691
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Rahz]
#5329644 - 02/22/06 09:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
So I've got these two jars... filled with straw. Both were then filled with water. Lids with a hole in the middle, and rims were applied. One jar went into the PC and sat there at 15 psi for 1.5 hours. One jar with a meat thermometer inserted into the hole was placed in a pot of water and pasteurized at 150 for 1.5 hours. The pasteurized sub was drained immediately, the PCed sub was drained after cooling to 150. I thought of leaving the water in both jars, but the PCed straw water would likely contaminate faster simply due to more nutrients being leeched out. Once cooled to room temperature, the lids were removed and the jars were placed in my back room, several feet from one another, in the same area I store my bale of hay. Now I wait to see what happens.
Rahz
This is what I was waiting for. But what happens if the sterilized jar contaminates faster and someone asks for proof as to why? 
I was considering using spawn bags but then thought to myself. " If I sterilize the substrate will the microbes be of any use nutritionally?" And then agar answered my question before I could ask. I trust agar as an excellent source here. In fact probably the best. But then...I'm not a REAL mushroom cultivator.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: musher_420]
#5329686 - 02/22/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>>>But what happens if the sterilized jar contaminates faster and someone asks for proof as to why?
Well, it's not really my problem but idealy I should have done several batches of jars and left them in pairs at diffrent locations. It will be intresting to see how it goes, but a microscope would be best for definitive results.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Rahz]
#5357021 - 03/02/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I have some results 
2 jars of straw, one labeled 250, one labeled 150. As I posted earlier, the jar labeled 150 was drained after cooking, the jar labeled 250 was drained after reaching 150. At this point they were both left in the room where I keep my bale of straw with the lids off for 2 days. After this time the lids were placed on the jars so that a 1/2 inch sliver was still exposed to open air. I wanted to keep conditions as close as possible to an actual spawn run, while still giving contams an invitation.
It has been 9 days since the jars were prepared.... AND... the jar at 250 is showing signs of growth. There's some fuzz growing on the straw near the top of the jar. The jar pasteurized at 150 is still clean.
Now, this isn't a professional job. The one caveat here, a jar of straw that's PCed will be slightly more hydrated than a jar that's pasteurized. However, the pasteurized jar is plenty wet enough to support growth. Still this moisture variance can't be discounted.
So as it stands, I haven't proved much yet. But we'll see how long it takes for the pasteurized jar to contam. At the 21 day mark, will I have one clean jar and one jar riddled with growth? I'm all giddy with anticipation 
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
Edited by Rahz (03/02/06 10:55 AM)
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Dem_Bones
Strangler



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The Nitrogen Cycle [Re: Rahz]
#5357667 - 03/02/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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as far as what microbes do what, i cant name exact names but there are many types of bacteria that help mycelia grow in an array of ways one of the mane ones is waste management bacteria break down Metabolic waste from the mycelia witch are toxic in to non toxic and often beneficial chemicals
some examples of these toxins that mycelia make are , actone, many ketone's, all sorts of organic acids urea and Ammonia etc etc these waste inhibit growth and lower the Ph of the substrate.
good bacteria in the substrate manage and destroy this waste witch if nothing else will prolong the health of your substrate some of these Bactria are Bacteria of the genus Nitrosomonas and Bacteria of the genus Nitrobacter but there are many many more i have also read of types of Bactria that live off mycelia waste that release hormones that excerrate mycelia growth.
all these life forms have evolved and lived together for eons to assume thay arnt connected and symbiotic is much more ignorant than to assume they are. no voodoo needed
-------------------- At the bottom of this page is a search bar to search all the post and threads on the forum so you can see all the other 500 people who asked the same thing.use the top search too it has shroomery approved FAQs USE IT YOU CAN DO IT !
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Rahz]
#5394097 - 03/13/06 12:51 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The jar of straw pasturized at 150 has noticable contamination as of yesterday.
Final results:
Sterilized at 250: 9 days until signs of contamination Pasturized at 150: 19 days until signs of contamination
Although a better test would have included more jars, and possibly alternate locations, things went as I expected them to. It's a "good sign" that low temp pasturization does in fact leave benificial microbes alive.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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