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Invisibleagar
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Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. * 1
    #5325700 - 02/21/06 08:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)



Since another thread on the subject has turned rather argumentative.

I thought I would throw in my $0.02 cents, in a fresh thread.

I have sterilized (as in PC'ed for 120 minutes @ 15/18 psi) compost, cow manure & straw based substrates, h/poo & combinations of all the above before.

But, it was done in large filter/patch autoclave bags.

Which, after cooling to room temps, each bag was spawned with about 2 quarts (+/-) of fully colonized wbs/grains from colonized grain spawn bags, in sort of a G2G fashion. Except it was G2S (grain to substrate)one dumped into the other in a F/H.

The bags were kneaded to distribute the spawn evenly in the substrate bags, then impulse sealed, incubated & fully colonized.

The bags were opened, emptied into sanitized trays, kneaded into the shape of the tray. Trays were then incubated 2 days, so the substrate could knit back together, then a casing cover was added, incubated a few more days, until a good spread of rhizo's surfaced. Then, the trays were fruited out, no different than any other.



P. Cubensis do not need diversified microbial activity in a substrate, or casing cover in order to induce/initiate pinning and/or fruiting.

"Most beneficial microbes growing during Phase II (composting) are thermophilic, in other words they are heat loving microbes.

Since microbes get their food and water from compost substrate there needs to be adequate supplies of both ingredients to complete the composting process. Microbes, like people, need carbohydrates, nitrogen, elements, vitamins, fats and lipids, etc., as food. During Phase I microbes grow and multiply generating heat as they consume food and water.

As long as water, oxygen and food are available they continue developing to a maximum population at the highest temperature they can tolerate. Then the self sustaining chemical reactions take over which continue to release heat, CO2 and water vapor. The mechanical turning and mixing of the compost pile should expose all material to these biological and chemical processes.

Fresh water or recycled runoff water is added to replenish the water lost during the process. Water is added to maintain the moisture in the compost substrate for these biological and chemical reactions to take place. Phase I composting continues with the formation of ammonia and carbohydrates that the mushroom will eventually use as food. So why not just stop the process after Phase I and spawn the material? Obviously that does not work.

We all realize that the mushroom does not like ammonia, so we continue indoors with Phase II composting.

Some of these organisms can be consider "beneficial microbes" that provide food for the mushroom. Others are "unfavorable microbes" that compete for food or may cause disease. The mushroom grower has the job of caring for the good microbes and eliminating the bad microbes.

The chemical characteristics of the raw ingredients are converted by microbes and chemical reactions into the specific substrate the mushroom uses as a food source. Therefore it is important to manage these good microbes in compost substrate to achieve productive crops."
source ~ http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/PhaseII.htm
RECOMMENDED READING

In effect, optimal composting conditions a bulk substrate as food for mycelium, removes ammonia & competing/competitive microorganisms.

Once done, at least in my humble opinion ~ it makes no difference if the substrate is sterilized.

EXCEPTING, if sterilized, the substrate must be treated as sterile. Otherwise, it is/can become an open breeding ground for competitor (contaminates).

Consequently, I used large filter/patch spawn bags, in order to protect the sterilized substrate from contamination.

Once, optimal amounts of spawn is added, and fully colonizes the bagged substrate. The mycelium itself protects it. As it has completely colonized the substrate, digesting & eating all other microbes.

Simply stated, sterilizing a substrate KILLS beneficial microbes, as well as all other competitor microbes.

Sterilizing does not remove the corpses of those microbes. Which remain as easily digested optimal nutrients, for mycelium.

Ponder that we condition our food, such as porterhouse steaks, by cooking them.

Meaning, a steer is killed, aged, butchered, cooked, served, eaten & digested with ease. Sitting a live kicking steer on a banquet table, with the intent of eating it, would be a far more arduous task & not easy.

Mycelium can eat & digest nutrients, DEAD OR ALIVE.
If they are dead, they don't put up a fight.

Pasteurization of a bulk substrate conditions it, to the degree that introduced spawn can effectively colonize it.

It does not make sense from a materials / labor / cost / time & ease of use basis to sterilize a substrate. In so far as doing so is not cost effective, in comparison to using well pasteurized substrate. That can be used, without the additional time /labor & materials costs involved, in doing so.

Moreover, new hands seldom have large filter/patch autoclave bags, large PC's, flow hoods and/or the experience to effectively use a sterilized bulk substrate

Just my humble opinion.
Others may differ & more power to those who do.


Edited by agar (02/21/06 08:18 PM)

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OfflineSnaggletooth
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5325725 - 02/21/06 08:06 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Excellent Read thanks for putting it the time..... :thumbup:

But if one has
Quote:

filter/patch autoclave bags, large PC's, flow hoods and/or the experience to effectively used a sterilized bulk substrate




Would this be worthwhile to try it, for the newbie?

Though the link does not work :wink:


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5325742 - 02/21/06 08:12 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see WHY a sterilized substrate must be treated differently than a pasteurized substrate. The only difference is that one (allegedly) allows some sort of benefical microorganisms to live that help SOMEHOW in the mushroom life cycle. If you can cite which microorganisms these are or how they help, I'd be glad to engage in discussion about them. If you can't, it just sounds like voodoo superstition, not to be rude.

Now, if their aren't any identifiable microorganisms present, then whats the big deal with contamination? WHY should they be treated differently? Both are devoid of living organisms that could offer benefit, so why treat them differently?


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5325754 - 02/21/06 08:14 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

By the way, I totally agree about the ease of pasteurization. If I can pasteurize five trays worth of substrate at one go, I'll do it. It's just much easier than sterilizing. However, that doesn't mean that sterilization wouldn't work. I sterilize grains and pasteurize/sterilize compost that I make to ensure that it's suitable for secondary composers, re: Mycelia.

So, I'd say pasteurization, but not because it preserves any specific life forms, just because it's easier to toss a pillowcase into a pot of hot water than to load it into jars, PC, etc.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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Invisibleagar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Snaggletooth]
    #5325803 - 02/21/06 08:22 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>>>>>Though the link does not work<<<<<<

http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/PhaseII.htm

I fixed it. It works NOW.


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OfflineSnaggletooth
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5325840 - 02/21/06 08:29 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Damn that's a long read, might as well start now thanks for the info.... :thumbup:


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5325856 - 02/21/06 08:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
The only difference is that one (allegedly) allows some sort of benefical microorganisms to live that help SOMEHOW in the mushroom life cycle.


From everything I've every read over the last 20+ years although certain species require certain microbes to fruit cubies do not. I've also understood that certain beneficial microbes help fight off nonbeneficial bacteria and molds, now I can't pull any info out of my ass right now as this has been from what I've read over many years. The point is with cubies the beneficials are not helping in the mushrooms life cycle as much as it is keeping the substrate healthier for digestion. My .02


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
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"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5325872 - 02/21/06 08:35 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

agar said:


Since another thread on the subject has turned rather argumentative.





What thread? :smirk:


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: hyphae]
    #5325889 - 02/21/06 08:38 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
From everything I've every read over the last 20+ years although certain species require certain microbes to fruit cubies do not. I've also understood that certain beneficial microbes help fight off nonbeneficial bacteria and molds, now I can't pull any info out of my ass right now as this has been from what I've read over many years. The point is with cubies the beneficials are not helping in the mushrooms life cycle as much as it is keeping the substrate healthier for digestion. My .02




I agree, the firefang, and various other microorganisms, are vital to the life of a compost heap. They turn the lignins and other complex sugars into sugars more readily digested by the cubensis mycelia. However, after they've done their job and died off, they have no purpose other than as dead foodstuffs for the secondary decomposers to feed off of. This being said, it doesn't matter if you sterilize and kill everything because the firefang would be dead anyway.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5325904 - 02/21/06 08:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Agreed, I have too say either way works for me.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5326052 - 02/21/06 09:10 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Was it all done infront of a flowhood?

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Invisibleagar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5326063 - 02/21/06 09:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
I don't see WHY a sterilized substrate must be treated differently than a pasteurized substrate. The only difference is that one (allegedly) allows some sort of benefical microorganisms to live that help SOMEHOW in the mushroom life cycle. If you can cite which microorganisms these are or how they help, I'd be glad to engage in discussion about them. If you can't, it just sounds like voodoo superstition, not to be rude.

Now, if their aren't any identifiable microorganisms present, then whats the big deal with contamination? WHY should they be treated differently? Both are devoid of living organisms that could offer benefit, so why treat them differently?




I am not going to argue the subject of this thread.
I simply posted my experience & rationale.
But, I am open to calm rational discussion(without VOODOO innuendo's).

An well pasteurized substrate, is alive with non-competitive (keyword) micro-organisms that do not interfere with mycelium colonization of that substrate, & will later serve as optimal nutrients for mycelium.

Those same non-competitive microbes also defend their turf, in~so~far as they themselves will overtake & digest competitive mold SPORES that they come in contact with.

Consequently, those beneficial microbes (in~so~far as they don't compete with mycelium & will serve as a nutrient source, for mycelium)serve as a quasi-defense mechanism against COMPETITIVE SPORES that come in contact with a pasteurized substrate.

Conversely, a fully sterilized substrate does not have that quasi-defense mechanism against COMPETITIVE SPORES.

Meaning, when a fully sterilized substrate, is exposed to open unfiltered air, COMPETITIVE spores have a far better chance of germinating & establishing themselves, on/within a sterilized substrate.

Once a competitive mold spore has germinated in a substrate, it simply grows to the degree it becomes a visible infection on the substrate. Resulting in ugly contamination & poor mushroom fruit harvests from an infected substrate.

I think you may misunderstand the term "beneficial microbes", as used in this instance.

In the composting process, beneficial microbes convert substances toxic to mushroom mycelium, into non-toxic substances, that mushroom mycelium can/will digest as nutrients.

Thereafter, those same beneficial microbes serve as another source of optimal nutrients for mushroom mycelium.

That is why they are deemed "beneficial".


Conversely, competitive microbes (contaminates) do nothing for mushroom mycelium & are able to effectively compete for nutrients, moisture & space in a substrate.

Meaning - competitive molds cause harm & detriment to mushroom mycelium & mushroom crops.


Verses



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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5326076 - 02/21/06 09:16 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

The microbes dont help in the idea of directly aiding and facilitating mushroom growth. The idea of beneficial microbes to act as a buffer between the time of spawning to the time of active running. Aiding in the chances that the selected fungi are able to proliferate without the mean green or cobweb mold staking a clame.

But even then, even with sterility, even with every caution taken.....sometimes they get in!

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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5326091 - 02/21/06 09:21 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

agar said:
An well pasteurized substrate, is alive with non-competitive (keyword) micro-organisms that do not interfere with mycelium colonization of that substrate, & will later serve as optimal nutrients for mycelium.




What organisms are those? Are these organisms actually growing inside the substrate block? If so, why don't we ever see or smell any of them? If they aren't growing, why would it matter if they are dead or alive?
Quote:


Those same non-competitive microbes also defend their turf, in~so~far as they themselves will overtake & digest competitive mold SPORES that they come in contact with.



I'm not sure that many organisms that survive pasteurization are this aggressive with foreign invaders. Most of the comments I've read about specific organisms deal with their ability to secrete antibodies into the substrate. Psilocybe mycelia, for example, excretes an antibiotic goo into the substrate to prevent certain organisms from taking hold. I'm still curious as to what these organisms are. If they really exist and you are sure of that, it shouldn't be too difficult to mention them. If they don't and you just believe that they do, well, no offense, but we are back to voodoo mythology.
Quote:


Consequently, those beneficial microbes (in~so~far as they don't compete with mycelium & will serve as a nutrient source, for mycelium)serve as a quasi-defense mechanism against COMPETITIVE SPORES that come in contact with a pasteurized substrate.




I don't currently have a digital camera, so I can't really do this experiment. If you'd culture some trichoderma and q-tip swab the green spores, then spread those spores throughout some pasteurized substrate, then spawn it and see that only mycelia lives, I might go along with it. If seems that you are saying that it would be impossible for a pasteurized substrate to contaminate unless a living organism were introduced to it. If thats true, I'd like to see some evidence.
Quote:


In the composting process, beneficial microbes convert substances toxic to mushroom mycelium, into non-toxic substances, that mushroom mycelium can/will digest as nutrients.




Most of the complex sugars aren't "toxic" to mushrooms, they just aren't digestable. Chitin, for example, isn't edible by cubensis mushrooms, but it can be broken down by primary decomposers so that the result is 'edible' by cubensis mycelia.
Quote:


Thereafter, those same beneficial microbes serve as another source of optimal nutrients for mushroom mycelium.




So the organisms are alive as the spawning takes place and they provide a living-barrier against spores, then the mycelia overtakes them and kills them, dissolving them to eat them? If mycelia can do this to living bacteria, why is bacteria a contaminant? I wasn't aware that cubensis mycelia had the ability to digest living organisms.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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Invisibleagar
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5326112 - 02/21/06 09:26 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>>But even then, even with sterility, even with every caution taken.....sometimes they get in! <<

True, either way, pasteurized, or sterilized. :mad2:


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5326124 - 02/21/06 09:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Just take a college class. Because your opening a can of worms non of us have the time or energy to teach you. Hell i don't have enough resources.

There are probably 100thousand types of bacteria out their. Each one can survive different climates. Ie the one that lives around vents in the bottom of the ocean a 1000 feet deep. Then there are ones that can and do live in your intestines.

Just like how some people survive jail and some don't. Competition of the fittest. Take a person out of their element and place them in another's "element" and see what happens.

Most mushrooms excrete a substance with alcohol key-tones. Those alcohol key-tones aid in the digestion and mobilization of nutrients.

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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5326144 - 02/21/06 09:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SHEIKofSHIITAKE said:
Just take a college class. Because your opening a can of worms non of us have the time or energy to teach you. Hell i don't have enough resources.




I've taken a number of classes, thanks. I'd just like to know if people believe that certain microorganisms exist, what organisms they are. If they don't know, it's like saying that we should pray over our casings or sacrifice small animals to appease the gods. It's ignorance, pure and simple. Has nothing to do with science at all.

Note; I'm not saying that microorganisms DONT exist that help out with mushrooms life cycles, I'm just saying that I'd like a little more evidence before I jump on the wagon about them.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5326153 - 02/21/06 09:40 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)



Psychrophiles -are bacteria that flourish at low temperatures. These bacteria prefer temperatures of approximately 55?F and will slowly decompose your compost even at temperatures of 0?F.

Mesophiles - are bacteria that thrive at temperatures in the 70-90?F range, and survive temperatures of 40?F to 110?F. These aerobic bacteria do most of the work of decomposition.

The work of decomposition raises the temperature inside the pile. When it's too hot for the mesophiles, the thermophiles take over.

Thermophiles - are bacteria that work in the high temperature range from 104?F to 200?F, but prefer temperatures between 105? and 140?F.

The high rate of decomposition will turn the mixture of organic materials in your pile to a uniform deep brown color.

Thermophilic activity quickly raises the temperature in the pile to levels that kill most weed seed. In the home composting arena, we look for 3-5 days with pile temperatures of 131?F or higher to manage weed seeds.

They all do a job & God bless them for it.


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: agar]
    #5326220 - 02/21/06 09:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I find it possible that certain thermophilic organisms would survive pasteurization, especially where the water temperature is kept lower than I usually keep mine (mine;180F, others150-170F). I'm just unsure if they really do much. I know that the cell walls of the actual spores are made with much tougher cellular sugar structures than the cell wall of a living organism, so I could see how organisms that feast on these tougher structures would destroy them, when a cubensis mycelia could not. These cell walls of spores also have proteins, which I would think would be more easily break down the proteins and other lipids.

I'm not trying to discount the theory, I personally always pasteurize bulk substrates. However, I'd like to know, just for scientific purposes, which organisms do exist. It's why I ordered cultures of firefang from actinomycetes associations (yea, weird that they exist...) and introduced them to my compost piles. I have a few piles that I keep mainly as "starter" for my other piles. When I make a new pile, I throw in a few shovels full of the fire-fang infested pile to "spawn" it. In the colder months, I just get a few 55 gallon rubbermaids, spawn the compost ingredients with the firefang and let it stay in the basement at about 50 degrees (beer lagering temperatures!).

I just didn't think that the firefang really prevented some sort of contamination. To be honest, I couldn't care less what grows in my outdoor compost piles, as long as it produces heat and breaks stuff down, I'm happy. The bad stuff doesn't survive pasteurization.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Pasteurization or Sterilization of bulk substrates. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5326232 - 02/21/06 10:01 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

>>>>If they don't know, it's like saying that we should pray over our casings or sacrifice small animals to appease the gods. It's ignorance, pure and simple. Has nothing to do with science at all.

I would find it foolish to assume there are no living organisms in a low temp pasteurized substrate simply because we can't name them. It certainly adds weight to your argument, but to suggest that alone should supersede common knowledge is asking too much. As I said, I'll test and get results without ever knowing the names of what may or may not live through pasteurization. It should be much more definitive than the religions you speak of.

Rahz


--------------------
rahz

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