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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do
#5325137 - 02/21/06 06:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Regarding a post in the regular cultivation section, I did some research on the fire-fang baterium (actinomycetes) to see if I could cut through some of the myths. The biggest myth that I had a problem with was that you wanted fire-fang to survive the pasteurization process so that it would 1) Help the mushroom fruit somehow, 2) Destroy competitors in substrate
I've always felt that this was a myth for a few reasons. First, I've never seen fire-fang running through my spawned substrate and secondly, the times that I have sterilized casing layers or substrates, they've worked fine. No contams, no problems in fruiting. Everyone always seems to parrot about the "benefical bacteria" that lives in properly made compost, but I know that bacteria grows much faster than mycelia does, especially at proper incubation temperatures.
I've always believed that firefang is great in compost piles because it is a primary decomposer. Things like cellulose, lignin and other more complex sugars can't be broken down by cubensis mycelia easily, so other organisms do the job for them. So to summarize, firefang might help break down compost so that it's better suited for mycelia, but you don't want live firefang in your substrate at spawning.
This is the thread that I posted in regarding this issue; http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5324697/an/0/page/0
and here is what, I believe, is the clincher that proves that I'm right...
http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory86.html
Quote:
Secondary Decomposers: These mushrooms rely on the previous activity of other fungi to partially break down a substrate to a state wherein they can thrive. Secondary decomposers typically grow from composted material. The actions of other fungi, actinomycetes, bacteria, and yeasts all operate within compost. As plant residue is degraded by these microorganisms, the mass, structure, and composition of the compost is reduced, and proportionately available nitrogen is increased. Heat, carbon dioxide, ammonia, and other gases are emitted as by-products of the composting process. Once these microorganisms (especially actinomycetes) have completed their life cycles, the compost is susceptible to invasion by a select secondary decomposer. A classic example of a secondary decomposer is the Button Mushroom, Agaricus brunnescens, the most commonly cultivated mushroom. Another example is Stropharia ambigua, which invades outdoor mushroom beds after wood chips have been first decomposed by a primary saprophyte.
Thats an article by Paul Stamets. To sum it up, I've seen no evidence that fire fang; 1) Produces antibiotics that can possibly help a home cultivator avoid contamination. 2) Assist in the formation of fruitbodies 3) Are even slightly desirable as living organisms in your substrate.
Feedback is encouraged
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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shroomydan
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Registered: 07/04/04
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326045 - 02/21/06 09:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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There are lots of beneficial microorganisms other than firefang which help prevent contamination. They essentially maintain a balance of power in the battle for food resources which allows the mycelium to win and take over.
It's my understanding that by the time mushroom mycelium gets a foothold, the firefang has done its thing and died out.
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MisterMyco
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: shroomydan]
#5326102 - 02/21/06 09:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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If I ask this question anymore, I'll break the keys from overuse.
WHAT BENEFICIAL ORGANISMS SURVIVE PASTEURIZATION AND HELP THE MYCELIA?
Since everyone here belives in them, a complete listing shouldn't be that hard. Or even a test that demonstrates that they might exist.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: shroomydan]
#5326103 - 02/21/06 09:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have no knowledge on this but read with interest thanks for the info and the link... Any other Stamets links or Audio.
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agar
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5326146 - 02/21/06 09:38 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Psychrophiles -are bacteria that flourish at low temperatures. These bacteria prefer temperatures of approximately 55?F and will slowly decompose your compost even at temperatures of 0?F. Mesophiles - are bacteria that thrive at temperatures in the 70-90?F range, and survive temperatures of 40?F to 110?F. These aerobic bacteria do most of the work of decomposition.
The work of decomposition raises the temperature inside the pile. When it's too hot for the mesophiles, the thermophiles take over. Thermophiles - are bacteria that work in the high temperature range from 104?F to 200?F, but prefer temperatures between 105? and 140?F.
The high rate of decomposition will turn the mixture of organic materials in your pile to a uniform deep brown color. Thermophilic activity quickly raises the temperature in the pile to levels that kill most weed seed. In the home composting arena, we look for 3-5 days with pile temperatures of 131?F or higher to manage weed seeds.
They all do a job & God bless them for it.
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Snaggletooth
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: agar]
#5326187 - 02/21/06 09:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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That picture rocks, says it all
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scatmanrav
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326701 - 02/22/06 12:24 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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So then can you sterilize manure and spawn it open air without issues?
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: scatmanrav]
#5326870 - 02/22/06 01:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't understand what you mean by "open air". I do all of my grain to grain transfers, inoculations, spawning and casing layer applications on a kitchen table in a medium sized room. Of course I disinfect the room on a weekly basis and I make sure to wash my hands before I handle anything, but I don't (and have never) use a HEPA filter, a forced air system or anything else. For my inoculations, sometimes I'll use a glovebox that I created, but even that is infrequent.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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agar
old hand


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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326908 - 02/22/06 01:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Open air" In this context is normal unfiltered air, wherever you are.
Generally, "open air" in a household contains about 100,000 microscopic particulates per cubic foot. Many of which are various types of spores.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: agar]
#5327050 - 02/22/06 02:41 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've never used a filter for anything cultivation related
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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agar
old hand


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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: MisterMyco]
#5327167 - 02/22/06 05:03 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: I've never used a filter for anything cultivation related
 How do you handle gas exchange in spawn jars & bags 
I use filters. 

I would wager, any agar/petri work you do is fantastic. And, any print you make. Never contains any contaminates. 
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ohmatic
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: agar]
#5327175 - 02/22/06 05:18 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
agar said:
Quote:
MisterMyco said: I've never used a filter for anything cultivation related
 How do you handle gas exchange in spawn jars & bags
only possible thingie would be soley pftek with spore syringes but oh well, wheres the fun in that ?  peace ohm
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MONOTUB tek HEATBOMB tek RIP #cultivation! ....can't associate? well FUCK U !
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scatmanrav
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: MisterMyco]
#5327611 - 02/22/06 11:00 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: I don't understand what you mean by "open air". I do all of my grain to grain transfers, inoculations, spawning and casing layer applications on a kitchen table in a medium sized room. Of course I disinfect the room on a weekly basis and I make sure to wash my hands before I handle anything, but I don't (and have never) use a HEPA filter, a forced air system or anything else. For my inoculations, sometimes I'll use a glovebox that I created, but even that is infrequent.
Granted I do all my stuff open air too...in the bathroom though, cleaned well with no air flows. Not exactly a sterile environment but it gets the job done damn well and almost no issues.
However...for this to be proven that theres no difference, you would need to make sure you didnt clean anything or spray anything. Do it in your livingroom, bathroom, kitchen whereever. With everything you mentioned (spawning and casing layer application) there will be little chance of contamination. With G2G transfers even that is the case if you do it right and quickly, the lid is only off for moments. With spawning though it takes a little longer. So sterlize some manure, and pasteurize. Then spawn it in your living room and let it sit open foir an hour, maybe open a window to let it get some nice air. Do the same to both sterilized and pasteurized manure and see if sterilization doesnt cause the manure to contaminate.
I tried it once, without trying to contaminate it, just to see if it would work, it did not colonize before turning green. That is the only tub of poo or compost (of close to hundreds of tubs) that has turned grean before the first flush, during colonization stage.
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MisterMyco
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: agar]
#5330210 - 02/23/06 12:05 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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I use tyvek lids on my grain jars, though I don't think that they are critical. My house is clean, I clean my room regularly with quat ammonia sanitizing solution and I wash my hands and arms with rubbing alcohol before I do procedures. I rarely make prints, but when I do, they all turn out fine.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: scatmanrav]
#5330217 - 02/23/06 12:07 AM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thats why I think that a true test would be to obtain some trichoderma spores on a q-tip and introduce them into pasteurized substrate (as well as sterilized substrate) and see what happens. If the trichoderma doesn't appear, then it is clear that something is present that is alive and that destroys harmful spores. If both contaminate, as is my belief, it would give creedence to my point of view. I'm not going to intentionally culture some trichoderma, however.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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noxy
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: MisterMyco]
#5338768 - 02/25/06 06:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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if you really want to see what those good heat loving microbes can do for your grow than try this: pasturize some straw at 150 degrees F do two batches one batch for say a couple hours the second batch after pasterization, turn the heat down to around 140 and keep it there for at least 24 hours, this will promote good microbial activity now spawn to both batches and you tell me witch one promotes faster growth, bigger shroms and less overall contams
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Dexter_Morgan
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: noxy]
#5351178 - 02/28/06 09:19 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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How about a side by side comparison of substrates that are sterilized vs pasturized?
-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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mycofile
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
#5353582 - 03/01/06 01:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Noxy makes a good point. The batch incubated at 140 will always perform better. It will be even more obvious with Pan. cyans on straw as they will be much more contam resistant.
I'm not sure however that this isn't more an issue of providing the actos as food rather than as some living contam protector. I just don't know on that.
Regardless, the original question is specifically about actos, and I'm not sure it matters much if they are living or dead. Remember they thrive at 140, much lower than you will be growing at. I know they make good fungus food though....
-------------------- "From a certain point of view" -Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi PM me with any cultivation questions. I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.
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lardnar
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Re: Acttinomycetes: what they do and what they DON'T do [Re: mycofile]
#5353955 - 03/01/06 03:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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All I know is I have a bag of pasturized poo from tennstudd for experiments that i take a handful from every couple weeks. I open the bag without spraying anything in the air I just open the windows for some fresh air and use some hand soap. I first dipped my hands in it in November and it isn't contaminated still
-------------------- If your soul is sence this life is lost ...
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