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shymanta
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 907
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Why not sterilize poo? 1
#5324697 - 02/21/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why not sterilize poo?
Everything I have read about poo says to pasteurize it and not sterilize. How come? Does anyone know? I can't find the answer.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324713 - 02/21/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm sure that we are about to hear a parroting of benefical bacteria and other unproven claims. I've sterilized poo before in quart jars, taken it out and broken it up with spawn and gotten great results, samae with casing layers. Why don't I always sterilize poo? It's just less time consuming to pasteurize it rather than sterilize it. Nothing lives over 180 degrees for an hour and a half, so it is really sterilizing.
If someone can show that certain bacteria that have been PROVEN to help fruiting, not to just be a good source of nutrition, survive over 180 degrees @ 1.5 hours and can name those specific bacteria, i'd be happy to hear it. The most common thing I've seen mentioned are of the order Actinomycetales. They are bacteria that can develop into mycelia. I believe that mushroom mycelia loves to EAT these organisms, but the organisms don't provide for any catalyst to pinning or other stage-changes in the mycelia life cycle.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
Loc: blinks stupidly
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324718 - 02/21/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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partial sterilization of a substance at a temperature and for a period of exposure that destroys objectionable organisms without major chemical alteration of the substance
to cause (land) to become unfruitful b (1) : to deprive of the power of reproducing (2) : to make incapable of germination c : to make powerless or useless usually by restraining from a normal function, relation, or participation
from Webster.......
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324720 - 02/21/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Cause poo is generally used as bulk, which means it's gonna be exposed to open air.
If you had an application where you sterilized poo, and kept it in a sterile environment (like done with WBS) while it colonized, it would be fine.
Sterile poo will contam much faster than pasturized poo.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Gopal
Strange

Registered: 07/09/04
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324730 - 02/21/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You should be able to find the answer easily on this site, but I will make it even easier for you. Pasturization kills off most of the "bad" organisms while leaving some "good" ones alive. Those "good" organisms help stave off contamination. If you sterilize it, everything is killed off and the contaminates have an equal chance, and all things equal, contaminates will win. So basically sterilized contaminates easier than pasturized, and cannot be spawned in the open air.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5324757 - 02/21/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Its like cooking vegetables. You boil it and all the vitamins and minerals seep out of the food. Same thing with the manure. You cook it to long and all the starches and minerals get drawn out of it.
Manure has a slower colonization time so if sterilized organisms foreign to the substrate have a better chance of gaining a foot hold.
If you pasteurized leave nondestructive more passive organisms around to keep other intruders at bay. Its biological war fair. You need to keep the troops fed and happy so to speak.
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RemainRandom50
Do You Need ToKnow Me?
Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 1,695
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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search this man, its been gone over millions of times now.
-------------------- At times I get consumed by my everyday life and will leave the Shroomery. Yet, every time drugs come falling into my life for fun.....I always think about the Shroomery and then I'm back!
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5324967 - 02/21/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: I'm sure that we are about to hear a parroting of benefical bacteria and other unproven claims.
Unproven claims?
It's a FACT that firefang isn't harmful to mycelium, but will fend off other bacteria and spores before they can germinate.
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I've sterilized poo before in quart jars, taken it out and broken it up with spawn and gotten great results, samae with casing layers.
Cool, sometimes it will work, sometimes not.
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Nothing lives over 180 degrees for an hour and a half, so it is really sterilizing.
Right, sterilization, not pasturization which occurs BETWEEN 150-175 NOT ABOVE 180.
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If someone can show that certain bacteria that have been PROVEN to help fruiting, not to just be a good source of nutrition, survive over 180 degrees @ 1.5 hours and can name those specific bacteria, i'd be happy to hear it. The most common thing I've seen mentioned are of the order Actinomycetales. They are bacteria that can develop into mycelia. I believe that mushroom mycelia loves to EAT these organisms, but the organisms don't provide for any catalyst to pinning or other stage-changes in the mycelia life cycle.
You seem to be confused. Fire Fang is the unofficial name of the bacteria you are talking about and it survives PASTURIZATION, not STERILIZATION (above 180F). It doesn't help fruiting, it helps to ward off potential contaminants and is a good sign that your manure is properly leached and ready for use.
You seem to be a kind of "know it all" although it seems like you don't know much from this post. All of the veteran growers that have vouched for the benefits of fire fang must just be idiots. I'm gonna start following YOUR advice now, "Mister Myco"
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Quick WBS Prep
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
SHEIKofSHIITAKE said: Manure has a slower colonization time so if sterilized organisms foreign to the substrate have a better chance of gaining a foot hold.
If you pasteurized leave nondestructive more passive organisms around to keep other intruders at bay. Its biological war fair. You need to keep the troops fed and happy so to speak.
 Exactomundo!
If you sterilize your poo, it's an open playing field for any bacteria that wants to compete with your myc. With the fire fang intact, the myc doesn't have to compete with harmful molds and bacteria.
I have found that not pasturizing OR sterilizing at all has worked for me. Properly weathered poo seems to do great by just adding water. I have heard of people getting gnat infestations and plants sprouting from doing that, but I've never had any major issues myself.
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Quick WBS Prep
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325044 - 02/21/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooManShroom said: Unproven claims?
It's a FACT that firefang isn't harmful to mycelium, but will fend off other bacteria and spores before they can germinate.
Source, please. Also, define "firefang" as a specific entity, by it's scientific name. If you are refering to the actinomycetes, please say so to clear it up.
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Cool, sometimes it will work, sometimes not.
It's worked every single time.
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Right, sterilization, not pasturization which occurs BETWEEN 150-175 NOT ABOVE 180.
I sterilize all of my substrate at 180 degrees for an hour and a half. I failed two times with bulk, my first two, and have not failed since then. Try it 
Quote:
You seem to be confused. Fire Fang is the unofficial name of the bacteria you are talking about and it survives PASTURIZATION, not STERILIZATION (above 180F). It doesn't help fruiting, it helps to ward off potential contaminants and is a good sign that your manure is properly leached and ready for use.
First off, sterilization isn't a specific temperature. It's a condition. If sterilization meant anything over 180F, why aren't grains just simply brought to a boil and considered sterile? If it's so difficult to sterilize grains that you must first soak them and then pressure cook them at 270F, wouldn't it be logical to assume that 180F isn't sterilization?
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http://www.digitalseed.com/composter/biology/actinomycetes.html Actinomycetes are the primary decomposers of tough plant materials like bark, newspaper and woody stems. They are especially effective at attacking tough, raw plant tissues (cellulose, chitin, and lignin), softening them up for their less enterprising relatives
Actinomycetes help in breaking down tougher, more complex sugars into sugars that are able to be broken down by the mycelial enzymes.
Quote:
http://www.ineedcoffee.com/05/actinomycetes/ Contribution of Actinomycetes:
* Degradation of lignin * Degradation of organic matter * Degradation of chitin * Formation and stabilization of compost piles * Formation of stable humus * Production of antibiotics * Combine with other soil microorganisms in breaking down tough plant and animal residues
The actinomycete organism itself doesn't "eat" contaminants, it produces antibiotics. Antibiotics either survive the process of pasteurization or they don't really matter. I've never strived to place antibiotics in my substrates, because I want biological entities to exist, not have barriers to their existance.
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You seem to be a kind of "know it all" although it seems like you don't know much from this post. All of the veteran growers that have vouched for the benefits of fire fang must just be idiots. I'm gonna start following YOUR advice now, "Mister Myco"
Oh? These veteran growers have done controlled, academically pubilishe d and peer reviewed journal entries? Or they'd just said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes. Maybe you could show me some of these sources, scholar.google.com didn't find ANY of them. LOLERSKATE! LMAO KTHXBYE
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325065 - 02/21/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.springerlink.com/(y2mweif5tvj...nt&backto=issue,4,7;journal,121,524;linkingpublicationresults,1:102966,1 Mushroom worker's lung: Serologic reactions to thermophilic actinomycetes present in the air of compost tunnels
Wow! A pathogenic disease that I could get seom these great actinomycetes! I'll take two, one for each lung!
I believe that actinomycetes, once destroyed, provide a useful food to the mycelia and I believe that the action of actinomycetes in the composting stage can help to break down more complex sugars into sugars more easily dissolvable by the mycelial enzymes of p. cubensis. Since noone has ever shown a picture of fire-fang running through a substrate as quick as mycelia, and fire-fang is a bacteria rather than a fungus and would reproduce MUCH quicker, I'm going to have to say it's mushroom myth.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325066 - 02/21/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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^^^^Damn good response 
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325096 - 02/21/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've never seen fire-fang running through a substrate, although the compost that I make is rich with it's bacterial filaments. Why is this? Where is this fire-fang at that is allegedly eating the spores of other compounds? Do you honestly think that fire-fang EATS these spores, or that it just happens to secret antibodies (like,oh, say, CUBENSIS MYCELIA)
http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory86.html
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Secondary Decomposers: These mushrooms rely on the previous activity of other fungi to partially break down a substrate to a state wherein they can thrive. Secondary decomposers typically grow from composted material. The actions of other fungi, actinomycetes, bacteria, and yeasts all operate within compost. As plant residue is degraded by these microorganisms, the mass, structure, and composition of the compost is reduced, and proportionately available nitrogen is increased. Heat, carbon dioxide, ammonia, and other gases are emitted as by-products of the composting process. Once these microorganisms (especially actinomycetes) have completed their life cycles, the compost is susceptible to invasion by a select secondary decomposer. A classic example of a secondary decomposer is the Button Mushroom, Agaricus brunnescens, the most commonly cultivated mushroom. Another example is Stropharia ambigua, which invades outdoor mushroom beds after wood chips have been first decomposed by a primary saprophyte.
This guy believes, as I said, that actinomycetes really help prepare the compost for secondary invasion by mushroom mycelia, and he also says that it's ready when the actinomycetes have "completed their life cycle". Maybe you might belive this guy, I think some people here may have heard of him....
Author: Paul Stamets
Odd that Paul Stamets doesn't say anything about their magical anti-biotic properties? Maybe he should call FooManShroom and ask him, hm?
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Holydiver
Stranger



Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 5,156
Loc: The midnight sea
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325117 - 02/21/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Firefang is not a requirement for a healthy manure substrate. Actually, my manure has never shown any signs of it, and performs quite well. So the argument of "killing beneficial bacteria" is not valid from my perspective, nor has it ever really been--I'm with MisterMyco here.
-------------------- To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.
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Fick_Duck
Truffle Shuffle


Registered: 10/18/02
Posts: 247
Loc: The Hamburger Train
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325125 - 02/21/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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-------------------- "To know life you must fuck it in the liver." -Dr. Frankenstein, Andy Warhols Frankenstein
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Holydiver]
#5325126 - 02/21/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I ordered a few samples of pure actinomycetes bacterium a few years ago and I've been introducing it into compost heaps ever since. I don't know if it really helps that much, but it seems to help the composting a little bit.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325243 - 02/21/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: Source, please. Also, define "firefang" as a specific entity, by it's scientific name. If you are refering to the actinomycetes, please say so to clear it up.
If you really knew about actinomycetes (techno-babble to make you feel more intelligent ) then you KNOW I am referring to fire fang. I'm not going to pretend to be a professor.
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It's worked every single time.
Cool, not for me and many others, you must keep your house cleaner than me. 
Quote:
I sterilize all of my substrate at 180 degrees for an hour and a half. I failed two times with bulk, my first two, and have not failed since then. Try it 
All of your substrate? WBS too? I'd love to see that! 
Thanks, but I won't try it.
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FooManShroom Said: You seem to be confused. Fire Fang is the unofficial name of the bacteria you are talking about
That answered question #1 above again to "clear it up"
Quote:
First off, sterilization isn't a specific temperature. It's a condition.
Agreed! 
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If sterilization meant anything over 180F, why aren't grains just simply brought to a boil and considered sterile?
You tell me, you said you sterilize "all of your substrates at 180F.
Quote:
If it's so difficult to sterilize grains that you must first soak them and then pressure cook them at 270F, wouldn't it be logical to assume that 180F isn't sterilization?
Yes, when we are talking about grains, not poo.
Quote:
http://www.digitalseed.com/composter/biology/actinomycetes.html Actinomycetes are the primary decomposers of tough plant materials like bark, newspaper and woody stems. They are especially effective at attacking tough, raw plant tissues (cellulose, chitin, and lignin), softening them up for their less enterprising relatives Actinomycetes help in breaking down tougher, more complex sugars into sugars that are able to be broken down by the mycelial enzymes. http://www.ineedcoffee.com/05/actinomycetes/ Contribution of Actinomycetes:
* Degradation of lignin * Degradation of organic matter * Degradation of chitin * Formation and stabilization of compost piles * Formation of stable humus * Production of antibiotics * Combine with other soil microorganisms in breaking down tough plant and animal residues The actinomycete organism itself doesn't "eat" contaminants, it produces antibiotics. Antibiotics either survive the process of pasteurization or they don't really matter. I've never strived to place antibiotics in my substrates, because I want biological entities to exist, not have barriers to their existance.
Fire fang or "actinomycete" as you seem to need to hear, doesn't create a "barrier". That sounded really poetic though, nice .
Quote:
Oh? These veteran growers have done controlled, academically pubilishe d and peer reviewed journal entries? Or they'd just said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes. Maybe you could show me some of these sources, scholar.google.com didn't find ANY of them.
Search the shroomery and you'll see all the proof you need from actual grows and grow logs. Nothing is set in stone and I don't think ANYONE ever said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes." Check into how commercial growers compost their manure substrates, which contain antibiotic "actinomycetes". They must not hold the knowledge that you do about it's damaging effects. You better let them know! 
Quote:
LOLERSKATE! LMAO KTHXBYE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ VERY GAY STATEMENT THERE FYI.
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Quick WBS Prep
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325290 - 02/21/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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OK Corky, one more time...
Actinomycetes ARE useful in compost making because they break down complex sugars into less complex sugars that the enzymes that secondary decomposers use (such as, say, cubensis mycelia) can digest them. I've said that all along. Actinomycetes complete their life cycle as the compost is nearing completion. All of the higher-chain sugars that they DO eat have been broken down and they run out of food. Their is no evidence, other than some people on an anonymous webboard, to show that actinomycetes destroy contaminants or induce fruiting. Absolutely none. The logic of "Everyone else says it, it must be true" is so ignorant that the fact that you'd use it astounds me. If you want to argue with Paul Stamets, go right ahead brother. I notice how you didn't even bother to include that in your post, I wonders why
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325310 - 02/21/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooManShroom said: Fire fang or "actinomycete" as you seem to need to hear, doesn't create a "barrier". That sounded really poetic though, nice .
One last try corky, wouldn't you say that if it prevents contaminants from growing, as you said that it did, it would be a BARRIER TO BIOLOGICAL EXISTANCE? OMFG YES! LOllzzl11!!!1112123908x1234! HAHZER!
Quote:
Search the shroomery and you'll see all the proof you need from actual grows and grow logs. Nothing is set in stone and I don't think ANYONE ever said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes." Check into how commercial growers compost their manure substrates, which contain antibiotic "actinomycetes". They must not hold the knowledge that you do about it's damaging effects. You better let them know! 
Holydiver seems to agree with me, I've been quite impressed with his works, and, well, I haven't seen anything of yours in the Advanced Forum. Maybe you should hang out here in kiddie land and parrot off ignorant advice.
Paul Stamets and I will continue to belive one thing, you can believe another.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
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Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325332 - 02/21/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok, thank you both for having an intelligent discussion and no mud was thrown... This has been very informative, whatever nerve was pitch to set this off,
This is a perfect example of two intelligent people hashing it out.
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Atheist Chat
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Holydiver
Stranger



Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 5,156
Loc: The midnight sea
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325333 - 02/21/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Please keep it civil, no name calling.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Holydiver]
#5325343 - 02/21/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I thought that Corky was his name, no offense intended
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325408 - 02/21/06 07:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: OK Corky, one more time...
Actinomycetes ARE useful in compost making because they break down complex sugars into less complex sugars that the enzymes that secondary decomposers use (such as, say, cubensis mycelia) can digest them. I've said that all along. Actinomycetes complete their life cycle as the compost is nearing completion. All of the higher-chain sugars that they DO eat have been broken down and they run out of food. Their is no evidence, other than some people on an anonymous webboard, to show that actinomycetes destroy contaminants or induce fruiting. Absolutely none. The logic of "Everyone else says it, it must be true" is so ignorant that the fact that you'd use it astounds me. If you want to argue with Paul Stamets, go right ahead brother. I notice how you didn't even bother to include that in your post, I wonders why
You sounded a bit like "Corky" when you contradicted yourself above, not me Seinfeld. I didn't include the Staments comment in my post because I was still responding to your prior post when you posted it, so stop wondering.
I think you caught me on the "destroying contaminants" aspect of fire fang, but as far as telling people to sterilize all of their horse poo, this setting them up for failure unless they are really clean with their procedures or use enough spawn to not give contams a chance. After reading up a little on composting, it seems that firefang is more of a "sign" that the manure is optimal for mushroom growth.
Like I've previously stated, I've used poo that wasn't sterilized or pasturized that turned out fine. Sterilizing any substrate leaves it open for all kinds of contaminants and if you truly wanted to sterilize your substrate, why not just boil it? Why keep it at a steady 180F? It seems like a high temp pasturization to me, but I'm no professor.
Anyway, I don't want this to turn into an all day affair. I respect your opinions and agree with some, but not all of them and appreciate this stimulating conversation, even though you have a very "prick-ish" way about you
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Quick WBS Prep
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325434 - 02/21/06 07:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't see how sterilizing would set them up fopr failure unless something in the substrate (something living) was preventing contamination. As I don't belive that any bacteria do this selectively enough to be worried about, i don't see that as being true
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325469 - 02/21/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You'll have to forgive me for being ten minutes behind with my posts. I don't type too fast. I didn't know this was "kiddie land".
I view the advanced forum, but I don't consider myself "advanced" and the topics discussed there are mainly new/different ways to cultivate or increase potency, things that don't really interest me. I'm just a grower and I don't need to speak techno-babble to feel like I'm more intelligent then others. You seem like a smart guy that has really studied up on his mycology, Congrats, I'll never be as cool as you or get as much pussy..... Damn!
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325489 - 02/21/06 07:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Admitting it is the first step.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325505 - 02/21/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: Admitting it is the first step.
I'm attending the 12 step program! 
Take Care, Dick!
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325509 - 02/21/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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No prob. Maybe you could find it in your heart to stop giving bad advice out to neophyte cultivators, so that they don't keep repeating the same erroneus information that you do. KTHX
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
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Loc: blinks stupidly
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325548 - 02/21/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Atheist Chat
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Wronguy
Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 4,450
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5325571 - 02/21/06 07:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Good information here. Now if we can just get past the pissing contest we can move forward.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325604 - 02/21/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You dont see it as a problem because you dont SEE whats going on in there.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325653 - 02/21/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: http://www.springerlink.com/(y2mweif5tvj...nt&backto=issue,4,7;journal,121,524;linkingpublicationresults,1:102966,1 Mushroom worker's lung: Serologic reactions to thermophilic actinomycetes present in the air of compost tunnels
Wow! A pathogenic disease that I could get seom these great actinomycetes! I'll take two, one for each lung!
I believe that actinomycetes, once destroyed, provide a useful food to the mycelia and I believe that the action of actinomycetes in the composting stage can help to break down more complex sugars into sugars more easily dissolvable by the mycelial enzymes of p. cubensis. Since noone has ever shown a picture of fire-fang running through a substrate as quick as mycelia, and fire-fang is a bacteria rather than a fungus and would reproduce MUCH quicker, I'm going to have to say it's mushroom myth.
k maybe in certain cirmumstances. But what actual net weight of these dead organisms are there actualy going to be? Basing that the dead organisms are needed to support a good flush is silly. Fire fang isnt running or competing. It just does its thing and is present homoganisly threw out all the substrate.
Now the autolysis of organisms in the soil over the winter may help certain fungi but i wouldnt think that has any relation to a subtropic fungi.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Non-composted poo, straw, etc, won't even have firefang colonies. If the aim of pasturization is sterilization, why do so many long time growers recommend low temp pasturizations over high temp? It seems like 180 would only marginally affect the nutritional value compared to 140, which is prefered by some. I'm willing to learn, but focusing on firefang isn't getting me there.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325988 - 02/21/06 08:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: Maybe you could find it in your heart to stop giving bad advice out to neophyte cultivators, so that they don't keep repeating the same erroneus information that you do. KTHX
Are you STILL talking?
What bad advice? I don't see how telling someone to pasturize rather then sterilize their substrate is bad advice. I keep trying to end this thread, as it has run it's course, but you want to keep it going with that "gotta get the last word in because I couldn't when I was getting bullied in high school" attitude. Suit yourself, I'm done with it.
To the original poster: Go ahead and sterilize your h/poo and post results. My one failure with manure was when I PC'd it, but you WILL succeed!. Someone on an anonymous forum told me so!
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325993 - 02/21/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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FoomanShroom > Paul Stamets, agar, hypea, HolyDiver and Me
It's a fact!
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
Edited by MisterMyco (02/21/06 08:59 PM)
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Rahz]
#5326044 - 02/21/06 09:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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aim of pasteurization is in killing of MOST organisms. Mainly endospores of other molds and fungi. Sterilization is the annihilation of all living things in the media including the bacteria and other single celled organisms plus the molds and fungi spores.
I never needed to sterilize a substrate to the point of pure sterility.
ps i cant beleave you two are still going at it. kinda childish. Why not realise you wont make anyone change their minds at tthis time and let it be.
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326046 - 02/21/06 09:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>>>FoomanShroom > Paul Stamets, agar, hypea, HolyDiver and Me
Your comparison is uneven. The original topic/question was not refering to compost. Besides that, agar stated that sterilizing will kill benificial microbes.
What's the point in debating about a product almost none of us use? Let's talk about non-composted poo.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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>>>>i cant beleave you two are still going at it. kinda childish.
ehh? I'm pursuing clarity on the issue, nothing childish about that.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Rahz]
#5326059 - 02/21/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Noone has EVER stated what magical beneficial microbes/bacteria exist in the substrate that benefit mycelia. By this, I mean in the substrate that you are using, post pastuerization/sterilization. Noone has EVER said ONE organism that survives that long and helps fungii, other than firefang which Paul Stamets himself said ends it's life cycle as the compost is near completion. Again, foomanshrom is smarter than Paul Stamets, just look in Amazon at all of FooManShrooms books...
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326077 - 02/21/06 09:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: FoomanShroom > Paul Stamets, agar, hypea, HolyDiver and Me
It's a fact!
No one you mentioned recommends sterilization, merely that it can work. There you go again. Let it go! Get laid!
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5326099 - 02/21/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't recommend sterilization either. Let me put it to you this way
Lets say that your answer to "Why not sterilize poo" was "because a demon will tear open the earth and consume you". Now, I totally disagree with that based on past experience. We would both come to the same conclusion, that is pasteurization is better, but your reason still is faulty and incorrect. Because of that, I challeneged your viewpoint. I always pasteurize bulk substrates, but not because I'll kill the fairies that live in the cow shit, galliently fighting off trichoderma spores with their swords of pure light.
Face it dude, you were wrong.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326111 - 02/21/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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>>>>Noone has EVER
True, but experience can produce meaningful information without ever procuring the specifics you ask for. I understand what you've stated, but again, why do so many advocate lower pasturization temps? Surely there's a reason?
It would be easy enough to test. Sterilize 2 jars (one filled with sub) Pasturize some sub and fill the second jar. Let them sit, exposed to open air and see which contaminates first.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326130 - 02/21/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i dont think he was wrong at all
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326156 - 02/21/06 09:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Blah, Blah, Blah.
I'll end this now. PM me if you want to keep being childish. I'll arrange for a little schoolyard fight and we'll see what names you throw out when there's a person and not a computer screen in front of you.
This thread has run it's course. Agar's seems to be more productive.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5326161 - 02/21/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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OMFG I M TEH SCAR#D!!!!!@#12!!!!!!!11onehundredeleventhousandonehundredeleven
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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>>>>i dont think he was wrong at all
Neither do I. Failure to provide requested information doesn't default a win. Subs prepared both ways may colonize without contams, but the question is, which sub is more likely to contam? Which sub if left uninnoculated will go bad first? I'm going to do an experiment, I can't think of a better way to find the answer 
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Quote:
SHEIKofSHIITAKE said: i dont think he was wrong at all
He already admitted he was mistaken about firefang existing as a contaminant prohibiting agent. Stamets himself said that firefang should be exhausted and deceased before the substrate is to be used for mushrooms. What more do you need?
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326179 - 02/21/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooManShroom said: PM me if you want to keep being childish.
Quote:
MisterMyco said: OMFG I M TEH SCAR#D!!!!!@#12!!!!!!!11onehundredeleventhousandonehundredeleven
My point EXACTLY. Not so much, "LET'S FIGHT MAN!", but that you just won't let it go and HAVE to have the last word.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Rahz]
#5326189 - 02/21/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You will appreciate pasteurization a lot more. It's simpler and one of the byproducts is a tea that is saturated with great nutrients and has few, if any, microbes left alive in it. It's great for soaking grains, watering plant crops and (some might disagree) dunking casings in.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326210 - 02/21/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe in the comercial production of compost. But in the field collectors ransacking a pile of dung ..... i think not. Paul is on the other side of the spectrum
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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So, using the facts presented here, what are you saying?
That manure collected from a field that wasn't totally decomposed by firefang is what the majority of the people here are using.
Well, thats not good! You want to find aged poo, every "tek" that I have read here talks about the importance of it. Agars pictures show poo nugs with white streaks running through them. Thats what you WANT! Be it properly made compost or field turds from a horse farm, it should look like that. If not, age it a little until it does.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326288 - 02/21/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You now have fallen into the same trap you were saying we all have fallen into. Beleaving, what others say here as fact.
You are also making assumptions. All i said was a pile of dung. Dont try and undermine me by making it seem as if i am a novice.
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Hoss
Stranger


Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 297
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5326304 - 02/21/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Streptomyces is a genus of Actinobacteria. (Actinomycetes)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptomyces
"Streptomycetes are characterised by a complex secondary metabolism. They produce a large number of antibiotics that are in clinical use"
http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Biorealm/bacteria/gram-positive/streptomyces/streptomyces.html
"Streptomycetes are most widely known for their ability to synthesize antibiotics. Over 50 different antibiotics have ben isolated from streptomycetes, providing most of the world's antibiotics."
http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/Video/Streptomyces.html
"Streptomycetes are also of medical and industrial importance because they synthesize antibiotics. There are several theories to may explain antibiotic production, the most widely accepted one being that antibiotics help the organism compete with other organisms in the relatively nutrient-depleted environment of the soil by reducing competition."
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Hoss]
#5326338 - 02/21/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i wonder what those and penicillin mold have in common?
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Hoss
Stranger


Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 297
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Penecillium my good man, penecillium. =]
Oooh! I know! They both make antibiotics!
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Hoss]
#5326414 - 02/21/06 10:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ha thats how i spelled it but spell check denied me!
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shymanta
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 907
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Holy crap! I really stated something. Makes me think of the butterfly effect.
So, what I gathered from this thread that applies to my question is:
There may be beneficial organism in the poo to warrant not killing them with sterilization. Sterilization (high temps) might damage some nutrients. Sterilized poo can work. More people use pasteurized poo.
My personal conclusions:
Pasteurize if spawning to poo (i.e. open air), sterilize if inoculating poo in a sealed environment (e.g. jars or bags).
Thank you all for your attention. I consider my quesiton answered very well.
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Roadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod


Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,674
Loc: Montana
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5327765 - 02/22/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Calm down a notch...
no need for the attitude!~
-------------------- Laterz, Road Who the hell you callin crazy? You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch! Brainiac said: PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.
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hyphae
born to grow


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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5328979 - 02/22/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Are we growing here or looking for attention? There are many things in life that the most knowledgeable can't explain they just know it works and thats a simple fact of life except it or please move on. BTW I totally agree aged poo definitely rocks without a doubt!!!!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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