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shymanta
Mad Scientist


Registered: 01/27/05
Posts: 907
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Why not sterilize poo? 1
#5324697 - 02/21/06 04:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why not sterilize poo?
Everything I have read about poo says to pasteurize it and not sterilize. How come? Does anyone know? I can't find the answer.
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324713 - 02/21/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm sure that we are about to hear a parroting of benefical bacteria and other unproven claims. I've sterilized poo before in quart jars, taken it out and broken it up with spawn and gotten great results, samae with casing layers. Why don't I always sterilize poo? It's just less time consuming to pasteurize it rather than sterilize it. Nothing lives over 180 degrees for an hour and a half, so it is really sterilizing.
If someone can show that certain bacteria that have been PROVEN to help fruiting, not to just be a good source of nutrition, survive over 180 degrees @ 1.5 hours and can name those specific bacteria, i'd be happy to hear it. The most common thing I've seen mentioned are of the order Actinomycetales. They are bacteria that can develop into mycelia. I believe that mushroom mycelia loves to EAT these organisms, but the organisms don't provide for any catalyst to pinning or other stage-changes in the mycelia life cycle.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324718 - 02/21/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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partial sterilization of a substance at a temperature and for a period of exposure that destroys objectionable organisms without major chemical alteration of the substance
to cause (land) to become unfruitful b (1) : to deprive of the power of reproducing (2) : to make incapable of germination c : to make powerless or useless usually by restraining from a normal function, relation, or participation
from Webster.......
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Rahz
Alive Again


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,230
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324720 - 02/21/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Cause poo is generally used as bulk, which means it's gonna be exposed to open air.
If you had an application where you sterilized poo, and kept it in a sterile environment (like done with WBS) while it colonized, it would be fine.
Sterile poo will contam much faster than pasturized poo.
Rahz
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Gopal
Strange

Registered: 07/09/04
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: shymanta]
#5324730 - 02/21/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You should be able to find the answer easily on this site, but I will make it even easier for you. Pasturization kills off most of the "bad" organisms while leaving some "good" ones alive. Those "good" organisms help stave off contamination. If you sterilize it, everything is killed off and the contaminates have an equal chance, and all things equal, contaminates will win. So basically sterilized contaminates easier than pasturized, and cannot be spawned in the open air.
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Snaggletooth]
#5324757 - 02/21/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Its like cooking vegetables. You boil it and all the vitamins and minerals seep out of the food. Same thing with the manure. You cook it to long and all the starches and minerals get drawn out of it.
Manure has a slower colonization time so if sterilized organisms foreign to the substrate have a better chance of gaining a foot hold.
If you pasteurized leave nondestructive more passive organisms around to keep other intruders at bay. Its biological war fair. You need to keep the troops fed and happy so to speak.
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RemainRandom50
Do You Need ToKnow Me?
Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 1,695
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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search this man, its been gone over millions of times now.
-------------------- At times I get consumed by my everyday life and will leave the Shroomery. Yet, every time drugs come falling into my life for fun.....I always think about the Shroomery and then I'm back!
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5324967 - 02/21/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: I'm sure that we are about to hear a parroting of benefical bacteria and other unproven claims.
Unproven claims?
It's a FACT that firefang isn't harmful to mycelium, but will fend off other bacteria and spores before they can germinate.
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I've sterilized poo before in quart jars, taken it out and broken it up with spawn and gotten great results, samae with casing layers.
Cool, sometimes it will work, sometimes not.
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Nothing lives over 180 degrees for an hour and a half, so it is really sterilizing.
Right, sterilization, not pasturization which occurs BETWEEN 150-175 NOT ABOVE 180.
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If someone can show that certain bacteria that have been PROVEN to help fruiting, not to just be a good source of nutrition, survive over 180 degrees @ 1.5 hours and can name those specific bacteria, i'd be happy to hear it. The most common thing I've seen mentioned are of the order Actinomycetales. They are bacteria that can develop into mycelia. I believe that mushroom mycelia loves to EAT these organisms, but the organisms don't provide for any catalyst to pinning or other stage-changes in the mycelia life cycle.
You seem to be confused. Fire Fang is the unofficial name of the bacteria you are talking about and it survives PASTURIZATION, not STERILIZATION (above 180F). It doesn't help fruiting, it helps to ward off potential contaminants and is a good sign that your manure is properly leached and ready for use.
You seem to be a kind of "know it all" although it seems like you don't know much from this post. All of the veteran growers that have vouched for the benefits of fire fang must just be idiots. I'm gonna start following YOUR advice now, "Mister Myco"
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Quote:
SHEIKofSHIITAKE said: Manure has a slower colonization time so if sterilized organisms foreign to the substrate have a better chance of gaining a foot hold.
If you pasteurized leave nondestructive more passive organisms around to keep other intruders at bay. Its biological war fair. You need to keep the troops fed and happy so to speak.
 Exactomundo!
If you sterilize your poo, it's an open playing field for any bacteria that wants to compete with your myc. With the fire fang intact, the myc doesn't have to compete with harmful molds and bacteria.
I have found that not pasturizing OR sterilizing at all has worked for me. Properly weathered poo seems to do great by just adding water. I have heard of people getting gnat infestations and plants sprouting from doing that, but I've never had any major issues myself.
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Quick WBS Prep
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325044 - 02/21/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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FooManShroom said: Unproven claims?
It's a FACT that firefang isn't harmful to mycelium, but will fend off other bacteria and spores before they can germinate.
Source, please. Also, define "firefang" as a specific entity, by it's scientific name. If you are refering to the actinomycetes, please say so to clear it up.
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Cool, sometimes it will work, sometimes not.
It's worked every single time.
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Right, sterilization, not pasturization which occurs BETWEEN 150-175 NOT ABOVE 180.
I sterilize all of my substrate at 180 degrees for an hour and a half. I failed two times with bulk, my first two, and have not failed since then. Try it 
Quote:
You seem to be confused. Fire Fang is the unofficial name of the bacteria you are talking about and it survives PASTURIZATION, not STERILIZATION (above 180F). It doesn't help fruiting, it helps to ward off potential contaminants and is a good sign that your manure is properly leached and ready for use.
First off, sterilization isn't a specific temperature. It's a condition. If sterilization meant anything over 180F, why aren't grains just simply brought to a boil and considered sterile? If it's so difficult to sterilize grains that you must first soak them and then pressure cook them at 270F, wouldn't it be logical to assume that 180F isn't sterilization?
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http://www.digitalseed.com/composter/biology/actinomycetes.html Actinomycetes are the primary decomposers of tough plant materials like bark, newspaper and woody stems. They are especially effective at attacking tough, raw plant tissues (cellulose, chitin, and lignin), softening them up for their less enterprising relatives
Actinomycetes help in breaking down tougher, more complex sugars into sugars that are able to be broken down by the mycelial enzymes.
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http://www.ineedcoffee.com/05/actinomycetes/ Contribution of Actinomycetes:
* Degradation of lignin * Degradation of organic matter * Degradation of chitin * Formation and stabilization of compost piles * Formation of stable humus * Production of antibiotics * Combine with other soil microorganisms in breaking down tough plant and animal residues
The actinomycete organism itself doesn't "eat" contaminants, it produces antibiotics. Antibiotics either survive the process of pasteurization or they don't really matter. I've never strived to place antibiotics in my substrates, because I want biological entities to exist, not have barriers to their existance.
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You seem to be a kind of "know it all" although it seems like you don't know much from this post. All of the veteran growers that have vouched for the benefits of fire fang must just be idiots. I'm gonna start following YOUR advice now, "Mister Myco"
Oh? These veteran growers have done controlled, academically pubilishe d and peer reviewed journal entries? Or they'd just said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes. Maybe you could show me some of these sources, scholar.google.com didn't find ANY of them. LOLERSKATE! LMAO KTHXBYE
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325065 - 02/21/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.springerlink.com/(y2mweif5tvj...nt&backto=issue,4,7;journal,121,524;linkingpublicationresults,1:102966,1 Mushroom worker's lung: Serologic reactions to thermophilic actinomycetes present in the air of compost tunnels
Wow! A pathogenic disease that I could get seom these great actinomycetes! I'll take two, one for each lung!
I believe that actinomycetes, once destroyed, provide a useful food to the mycelia and I believe that the action of actinomycetes in the composting stage can help to break down more complex sugars into sugars more easily dissolvable by the mycelial enzymes of p. cubensis. Since noone has ever shown a picture of fire-fang running through a substrate as quick as mycelia, and fire-fang is a bacteria rather than a fungus and would reproduce MUCH quicker, I'm going to have to say it's mushroom myth.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
Loc: blinks stupidly
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325066 - 02/21/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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^^^^Damn good response 
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325096 - 02/21/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've never seen fire-fang running through a substrate, although the compost that I make is rich with it's bacterial filaments. Why is this? Where is this fire-fang at that is allegedly eating the spores of other compounds? Do you honestly think that fire-fang EATS these spores, or that it just happens to secret antibodies (like,oh, say, CUBENSIS MYCELIA)
http://www.agroforestry.net/overstory/overstory86.html
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Secondary Decomposers: These mushrooms rely on the previous activity of other fungi to partially break down a substrate to a state wherein they can thrive. Secondary decomposers typically grow from composted material. The actions of other fungi, actinomycetes, bacteria, and yeasts all operate within compost. As plant residue is degraded by these microorganisms, the mass, structure, and composition of the compost is reduced, and proportionately available nitrogen is increased. Heat, carbon dioxide, ammonia, and other gases are emitted as by-products of the composting process. Once these microorganisms (especially actinomycetes) have completed their life cycles, the compost is susceptible to invasion by a select secondary decomposer. A classic example of a secondary decomposer is the Button Mushroom, Agaricus brunnescens, the most commonly cultivated mushroom. Another example is Stropharia ambigua, which invades outdoor mushroom beds after wood chips have been first decomposed by a primary saprophyte.
This guy believes, as I said, that actinomycetes really help prepare the compost for secondary invasion by mushroom mycelia, and he also says that it's ready when the actinomycetes have "completed their life cycle". Maybe you might belive this guy, I think some people here may have heard of him....
Author: Paul Stamets
Odd that Paul Stamets doesn't say anything about their magical anti-biotic properties? Maybe he should call FooManShroom and ask him, hm?
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Holydiver
Stranger



Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 5,156
Loc: The midnight sea
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325117 - 02/21/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Firefang is not a requirement for a healthy manure substrate. Actually, my manure has never shown any signs of it, and performs quite well. So the argument of "killing beneficial bacteria" is not valid from my perspective, nor has it ever really been--I'm with MisterMyco here.
-------------------- To find a place to live between the negatives and positives.
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Fick_Duck
Truffle Shuffle


Registered: 10/18/02
Posts: 247
Loc: The Hamburger Train
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325125 - 02/21/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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-------------------- "To know life you must fuck it in the liver." -Dr. Frankenstein, Andy Warhols Frankenstein
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: Holydiver]
#5325126 - 02/21/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I ordered a few samples of pure actinomycetes bacterium a few years ago and I've been introducing it into compost heaps ever since. I don't know if it really helps that much, but it seems to help the composting a little bit.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325243 - 02/21/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MisterMyco said: Source, please. Also, define "firefang" as a specific entity, by it's scientific name. If you are refering to the actinomycetes, please say so to clear it up.
If you really knew about actinomycetes (techno-babble to make you feel more intelligent ) then you KNOW I am referring to fire fang. I'm not going to pretend to be a professor.
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It's worked every single time.
Cool, not for me and many others, you must keep your house cleaner than me. 
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I sterilize all of my substrate at 180 degrees for an hour and a half. I failed two times with bulk, my first two, and have not failed since then. Try it 
All of your substrate? WBS too? I'd love to see that! 
Thanks, but I won't try it.
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FooManShroom Said: You seem to be confused. Fire Fang is the unofficial name of the bacteria you are talking about
That answered question #1 above again to "clear it up"
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First off, sterilization isn't a specific temperature. It's a condition.
Agreed! 
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If sterilization meant anything over 180F, why aren't grains just simply brought to a boil and considered sterile?
You tell me, you said you sterilize "all of your substrates at 180F.
Quote:
If it's so difficult to sterilize grains that you must first soak them and then pressure cook them at 270F, wouldn't it be logical to assume that 180F isn't sterilization?
Yes, when we are talking about grains, not poo.
Quote:
http://www.digitalseed.com/composter/biology/actinomycetes.html Actinomycetes are the primary decomposers of tough plant materials like bark, newspaper and woody stems. They are especially effective at attacking tough, raw plant tissues (cellulose, chitin, and lignin), softening them up for their less enterprising relatives Actinomycetes help in breaking down tougher, more complex sugars into sugars that are able to be broken down by the mycelial enzymes. http://www.ineedcoffee.com/05/actinomycetes/ Contribution of Actinomycetes:
* Degradation of lignin * Degradation of organic matter * Degradation of chitin * Formation and stabilization of compost piles * Formation of stable humus * Production of antibiotics * Combine with other soil microorganisms in breaking down tough plant and animal residues The actinomycete organism itself doesn't "eat" contaminants, it produces antibiotics. Antibiotics either survive the process of pasteurization or they don't really matter. I've never strived to place antibiotics in my substrates, because I want biological entities to exist, not have barriers to their existance.
Fire fang or "actinomycete" as you seem to need to hear, doesn't create a "barrier". That sounded really poetic though, nice .
Quote:
Oh? These veteran growers have done controlled, academically pubilishe d and peer reviewed journal entries? Or they'd just said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes. Maybe you could show me some of these sources, scholar.google.com didn't find ANY of them.
Search the shroomery and you'll see all the proof you need from actual grows and grow logs. Nothing is set in stone and I don't think ANYONE ever said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes." Check into how commercial growers compost their manure substrates, which contain antibiotic "actinomycetes". They must not hold the knowledge that you do about it's damaging effects. You better let them know! 
Quote:
LOLERSKATE! LMAO KTHXBYE
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ VERY GAY STATEMENT THERE FYI.
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Quick WBS Prep
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325290 - 02/21/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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OK Corky, one more time...
Actinomycetes ARE useful in compost making because they break down complex sugars into less complex sugars that the enzymes that secondary decomposers use (such as, say, cubensis mycelia) can digest them. I've said that all along. Actinomycetes complete their life cycle as the compost is nearing completion. All of the higher-chain sugars that they DO eat have been broken down and they run out of food. Their is no evidence, other than some people on an anonymous webboard, to show that actinomycetes destroy contaminants or induce fruiting. Absolutely none. The logic of "Everyone else says it, it must be true" is so ignorant that the fact that you'd use it astounds me. If you want to argue with Paul Stamets, go right ahead brother. I notice how you didn't even bother to include that in your post, I wonders why
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: FooMan]
#5325310 - 02/21/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooManShroom said: Fire fang or "actinomycete" as you seem to need to hear, doesn't create a "barrier". That sounded really poetic though, nice .
One last try corky, wouldn't you say that if it prevents contaminants from growing, as you said that it did, it would be a BARRIER TO BIOLOGICAL EXISTANCE? OMFG YES! LOllzzl11!!!1112123908x1234! HAHZER!
Quote:
Search the shroomery and you'll see all the proof you need from actual grows and grow logs. Nothing is set in stone and I don't think ANYONE ever said "Well, golly, horseshit works, it must be the magic actinomycetes." Check into how commercial growers compost their manure substrates, which contain antibiotic "actinomycetes". They must not hold the knowledge that you do about it's damaging effects. You better let them know! 
Holydiver seems to agree with me, I've been quite impressed with his works, and, well, I haven't seen anything of yours in the Advanced Forum. Maybe you should hang out here in kiddie land and parrot off ignorant advice.
Paul Stamets and I will continue to belive one thing, you can believe another.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
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Snaggletooth
Stranger in a Strange Land


Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 6,109
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Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: Why not sterilize poo? [Re: MisterMyco]
#5325332 - 02/21/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Ok, thank you both for having an intelligent discussion and no mud was thrown... This has been very informative, whatever nerve was pitch to set this off,
This is a perfect example of two intelligent people hashing it out.
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