|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity
#5323297 - 02/21/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Venezuela, by sending heating oil free of charge for poor and homeless people and at very low prices for those that can pay, is giving a great example of cooperation and solidarity with the American people; and the whole world is bearing witness to it," said the outstanding scholar, historian and university professor Noam Chomsky during a presentation at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The event brought together professors, researchers, politicians, scholars, journalists, and social leaders from that city.
Chomsky, who is also well-known in the field of linguistics, has lashed out the Bush administration foreign policy through his books and speeches in international events.
He explained that the majority of Americans receive little or no information at all about the achievements of the Bolivarian revolution led by President Hugo Chavez, because the mass media only highlight the negative side and remain silent about the positive.
The writer and MIT linguistics and philosophy professor ?who dedicates a great part of his activities to giving lectures at universities, trade unions and organizations? announced that he will visit Caracas in late October to participate in conferences and forums on how the Latin American situation is being viewed from the US perspective. He said that in his presentations he will approach the Venezuelan situation from the angle of its achievements, accomplishments, targets and programs.
On this occasion, Chomsky took part in a panel discussion on the origins and consequences of terrorism. Also participating were British priest Geoffrey Bottoms, a defender of humans rights and activist for world peace and justice, as well as journalist and moviemaker Bernie Dwyer, who lives in Havana.
Before the panel opened, there was a screening of the documentary "Mission Against Terror," which denounces the detention of five Cubans in the United States for fighting terrorism. At the same time it investigates the terrorist activities of Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carriles ? the masterminds of the mid-air bombing of a Cubana Airlines DC-8 off the coast of Barbados on October 6, 1973 that killed all of its 73 passengers and crew members.
Throughout the discussion, Chomsky referred to the Venezuelan political process as an example for Latin America and the rest of the world, underscoring the policies that have achieved countless successes, especially in the educational and healthcare fields. These have strengthened the Venezuelan people's dignity, he said.
"Venezuela has successfully challenged the United States, and this country does not accept challenges ? much less if they are successful. That's the heart of the matter," said the writer.
On the other hand, he pointed out that according to Bush's foreign policy, the United States believes that it has the privilege of labeling any country or person as terrorist. "And by following that precept we would have to accept that our own air force might bomb Washington, as the US government is harboring Luis Posada Carriles and has turned a deaf ear at Venezuela's request for the extradition of one of the most notorious terrorist in this continent, who is about to be released," said Chomsky.
He went on to say that "Posada Carriles, a former CIA operative, escaped from a Venezuelan prison where he was being held while facing trial for the attack on the Cuban plane and other charges. He was later admitted into the US and sent to El Salvador, where, among other activities, he organized Nicaraguan Contras along with Captain Oliver North."
"Now," said the US scholar, "the Cuban-born terrorist is in a jail in El Paso and the Venezuela?s request for his extradition has not been responded to. Everything seems to be in a limbo; and probably Posada will show up tomorrow in Miami, walking around freely. So there is a remarkable contradiction between what is said and done in this country with regards to terrorism." http://www.periodico26.cu/english/news_world/noam021906.htm
Venezuela's Chavez may end presidential term limits
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said on Sunday he may seek to lift constitutionally mandated presidential term limits if opposition parties boycott the upcoming December presidential elections.
"I might sign a decree calling for a popular referendum -- do you agree that Chavez should run for a third term in 2013?" Chavez said during his weekly Sunday broadcast. "It's not a firm decision, it's something I'm thinking about."
Chavez was first elected in 1998 and again in 2000 after he led a move to rewrite the country's constitution. He is up for re-election in December, and has accused the opposition and the U.S. government of seeking to disrupt the poll.
Opposition parties boycotted parliamentary elections last December on allegations of electoral authority bias, allowing Chavez's allies to win all the legislature's seats.
"If the opposition tries to pull the same stunt of everyone pulling out (of the vote) ... that might strengthen this idea," Chavez said.
Venezuela's fractured opposition parties still have not united behind a possible candidate to face Chavez in December.
Many opposition leaders advocated abstention after Chavez won an overwhelming victory in a recall referendum on his rule in 2004. Chavez's critics alleged he won the vote through fraud, an accusation not backed by international election monitors.
But Chavez's critics accuse him of concentrating power and seeking to remain in office indefinitely. The constitutional changes he promoted in 1999 eliminated Venezuela's traditional ban on immediate reelection, and increased the presidential term from five to six years.
Chavez last year opposed a move by one of his allies to end term limits, insisting he did not have any intention of remaining in the presidency permanently.
He said the current debate was meant to teach the opposition "a lesson about true politics, so they'll stop being so ridiculous." http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060219/wl_nm/venezuela_chavez_dc
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
Krishna
कृष्ण,LOL


Registered: 05/08/03
Posts: 23,285
Loc: oakland
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5323359 - 02/21/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
most of the contributors to Z-Mag have been (unfortunately) not very critical of Chavez. There are some great things that he has been doing, but his whole regime reeks of authoritarianism to me. One can praise his accomplishments and still condemn his autocraticness, i feel..
--------------------
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Krishna]
#5323681 - 02/21/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
well put.
I have been trying to figure out why Central/South America is so fucked up. The people work hard and they have lots of resources.
and its not all Americas fault, IMO the U.S. has done more good than bad.
I watched a chronicle on IFC called Amerikan Passport by Reed Pagit. it leaned left but was still a good movie. (i loved his grandfather)
Reed Pagit had an interesting quote
"It's been suggested that there's a side of us that overcomes our own fear of death by killing another. To take pleasure in killing is disturbingly universal. Otto Rank said something like "The death-fear of the ego is eased by the killing of another-no wonder we are addicted to war."
maybe thats the problem with South America. they elect nut cases knowing it will cause lots of pain and sorrow, but praying it will not affect them personally.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
Edited by lonestar2004 (02/21/06 11:19 AM)
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5323902 - 02/21/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not sure what your trying to get across, but if Chavez's opponents refuse to participate in a national election than all they're doing is inviting him to retain his position. Maybe they hope to gain sympathy abroad by portraying Chavez as some sort of power hungry tyrant. I have no doubt that there are foreign parties invested in the situation. Only time will tell whether Chavez is a real deal socialist or a closet totalitarian, but the powers that be in the U.S. want him out, and it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to see his name end up next to Allende in the history books.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5323963 - 02/21/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
and its not all Americas fault, IMO the U.S. has done more good than bad.
What do you mean by "America"? Some american people have done good things over there but if you mean the american government or policies implemented by the american government I'm struggling to think of something good they ever did.
they elect nut cases knowing it will cause lots of pain and sorrow, but praying it will not affect them personally.
Presumably if Chavez had been another in the long line of big-business oriented dictators no-one in America would have minded what he did. Because he's oriented to the poor and the people of the country he's going to be heavily demonised.
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: seeker]
#5324504 - 02/21/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
The parallels between both (Allende/Chavez) up to this point are striking.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324540 - 02/21/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
But, will Chavez have his own Pinochet?
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5324559 - 02/21/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alex213 said: the american government or policies implemented by the american government I'm struggling to think of something good they ever did.
For example: Living and travailing throughout Latin America i would frequently come across huge projects that the the US Army Corps of Engineers had completed. Huge irrigation projects and flood control. lots of infrastructure projects, that truly benefited the people.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: seeker]
#5324574 - 02/21/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: But, will Chavez have his own Pinochet?
lets hope so 
I do hope the U.S. starts paying more attention to our Neighbors. We need to hurry up and get the fuck out of the middle east and stop wasting money on Africa.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
kilgore_trout
Stranger
Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 1,607
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324605 - 02/21/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
chavez has not proposed a single life term. spokespeople have said that he has exaggerated as well.
if something like this were to go forward, it would likely be the same term lengths without denial of continued candidacy. if he and the people wish for him to be able to run after 2012, and the people vote to let him do so, i don't see anything wrong with that. there will still be frequent elections. an end to term limits does not necessarily mean life terms, unless the people will it every few years. much discussions have distorted things to the end of painting him as hitleresque, elected then assuming an authoritarian dictator's role. this is very far from any evidenced truths.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
|
kilgore_trout
Stranger
Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 1,607
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324617 - 02/21/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
Quote:
seeker said: But, will Chavez have his own Pinochet?
lets hope so 
I do hope the U.S. starts paying more attention to our Neighbors. We need to hurry up and get the fuck out of the middle east and stop wasting money on Africa.
lets hope for an undemocratic military coup by a US gov supported fascist death-squad dictator? i believe there are and have been to many of those.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324657 - 02/21/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Just to be clear, not all socialists are communists and fascists, so trying to paint them all with same brush is foolish and counterproductive.
Plus, until international is broken, it's nobodies business but the Venezuelans what happens in Venezuelan politics. Chavez (like Allende) was democratically elected, so Uncle Sam can't legally do a damn thing.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: kilgore_trout]
#5324662 - 02/21/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
kilgore_trout said: if he and the people wish for him to be able to run after 2012, and the people vote to let him do so, i don't see anything wrong with that.
YES!!!!
Lets do that here in the U.S.
Bush/Rice 2008
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324695 - 02/21/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
lonestar2004 said:
Venezuela's Chavez may end presidential term limits
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said on Sunday he may seek to lift constitutionally mandated presidential term limits if opposition parties boycott the upcoming December presidential elections.
"I might sign a decree calling for a popular referendum -- do you agree that Chavez should run for a third term in 2013?" Chavez said during his weekly Sunday broadcast. "It's not a firm decision, it's something I'm thinking about."
If BUsh did something like this, would good ole Heeb Chomsky come out and praise him? Somehow, I doubt it.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: MisterMyco]
#5324724 - 02/21/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
what I dont understand is why the left loves Dictators like Castro, Kim Jong and Chavez. They (liberals) would be the first in front of the firing squads.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324731 - 02/21/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Liberals hate Western values. ANything that undermines them, the libearls support. Thats why every liberal rag in the country, from the red press to the ACLU, refers to illegal aliens as "undocumented". Anything that could possibly bring about the death of Western civilization, they support.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: MisterMyco]
#5324747 - 02/21/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
If the Democrats ever boycotted an national election a third party would displace them before morning.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324752 - 02/21/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
lonestar2004 said: what I dont understand is why the left loves Dictators like Castro, Kim Jong and Chavez. They (liberals) would be the first in front of the firing squads.
A few things:
1. The "left" is a broad category, which includes groups that don't get along with each other. For example, my father is a liberal who is also rather anti-communist. There are also many socialists and communists who show disdain for liberals. Don't think that just because two groups are left of center that they necessarily admire one another.
2. Chavez is not a dictator. He was elected, and has not stopped the democratic process.
3. Who the fuck admires Kim Jong Il? Certainly no one I've ever met.
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: MisterMyco]
#5324768 - 02/21/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MisterMyco said: Liberals hate Western values.
No, they hate conservative values. Tolerance, equality, and open-mindedness have always been valued in the West(or at least ever since the Dark Ages ended).
--------------------
|
MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Silversoul]
#5324804 - 02/21/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Oh? Lynching blacks in the South was part of the tolerance package, or the equality?
Western values have been about working hard, producing things, using your intellect and honest, hardworking people being given a minimal amount of government to protect and ensure everyones rights. When non-Western influences, and people who aren't honest and hardworking, come into the picture, it begins to falter. Thats why America is going so far down hill now, the Constitution was framed by people who assumed that most Americans would be white people who were hard-working and respectful of others rights. Now, thats changing rapidly and we 'need' more and more laws to deal with it.
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
|
DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Silversoul]
#5324824 - 02/21/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
MisterMyco said: Liberals hate Western values.
No, they hate conservative values. Tolerance, equality, and open-mindedness have always been valued in the West(or at least ever since the Dark Ages ended).
I would amend MisterMyco's statement to - "Liberals hate exporting western values"
|
bukkake


Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: lonestar2004]
#5324828 - 02/21/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
lonestar2004 said: For example: Living and travailing throughout Latin America i would frequently come across huge projects that the the US Army Corps of Engineers had completed. Huge irrigation projects and flood control. lots of infrastructure projects, that truly benefited the people.
That is the least they can do after training assassins on US soil to commit atrocities and run wild all over that region. There are no reparations that can be paid to rectify the slaughters and starvations they supported. The US still to this day believes they did nothing wrong in inflicting chaos in Central America and the great neocon god Reagan was doing something noble.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: MisterMyco]
#5324832 - 02/21/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MisterMyco said: Oh? Lynching blacks in the South was part of the tolerance package, or the equality?
I never said that such things were universally valued in the West. But ever since the Renaissance, there has been an intellectual movement towards such enlightened values.
Quote:
Western values have been about working hard, producing things, using your intellect and honest, hardworking people being given a minimal amount of government to protect and ensure everyones rights. When non-Western influences, and people who aren't honest and hardworking, come into the picture, it begins to falter. Thats why America is going so far down hill now, the Constitution was framed by people who assumed that most Americans would be white people who were hard-working and respectful of others rights. Now, thats changing rapidly and we 'need' more and more laws to deal with it.
What you have pointed out is simply a part of Western values, and most of it is not in conflict with liberal values. However, I find it laughable that you talk about hard-working whites when the founding fathers knew damn well that half the country mooched off the forced labor from non-whites at the time.
PS: You wouldn't happen to post at Stormfront, would you?
--------------------
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Silversoul]
#5324835 - 02/21/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Paradigm said: "The "left" is a broad category, which includes groups that don't get along with each other. For example, my father is a liberal who is also rather anti-communist. There are also many socialists and communists who show disdain for liberals. Don't think that just because two groups are left of center that they necessarily admire one another."
how ironic, remember when you said this?
"This guy lonestar is the right-wing Annapurna, totally immersed in rhetoric and blind to logic."
Practice What You Preach.....
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
|
MisterMyco
Myco-fanatic


Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 636
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Silversoul]
#5324840 - 02/21/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Paradigm said: What you have pointed out is simply a part of Western values, and most of it is not in conflict with liberal values. However, I find it laughable that you talk about hard-working whites when the founding fathers knew damn well that half the country mooched off the forced labor from non-whites at the time.
Liberal values of stealing money from people to help "underprivleged" people is part of western values? Fuckin' hardly. Also, a lot of the slaves weren't white. Also, I'd say more labor was extracted from horses or other stock than black slaves, but you don't credit them with the work. The "work" that built America was the curiosity to explore, the ingenuity to build firearms, boats, medicines and the intellectual ability of people of that time who respected freedom. Not some mammy out swinging a shovel.
Quote:
PS: You wouldn't happen to post at Stormfront, would you?
Ad hom attack, pretty cool. Did mommy make you a nice healthy supper tonight? Or did you get a job as a Sociologist that pays more than 9.50$/hour and doesn't involve offering people french fries with their value meals?
-------------------- "I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural." Isaac Asimov
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: MisterMyco]
#5327107 - 02/22/06 03:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Western values have been about working hard, producing things, using your intellect and honest, hardworking people being given a minimal amount of government to protect and ensure everyones rights.
Bullshit. Without massive government inteference from the thirties to the seventies America would be nowhere near the economic power it is today. Not some mammy out swinging a shovel.
Those darn nigras eh
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5328714 - 02/22/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alex213 said: Without massive government interference from the thirties to the seventies America would be nowhere near the economic power it is today.
Correction: In spite of government interference from the thirties to the present day, America has become the preeminent economic power in the world today because of people who are more willing to pull up there sleeves and get to work, than they are to complain about inequities, either real or imagined, either the result of government intervention or the natural order of existence. I will concede that the destruction of the infrastructure of almost the entire industrial world in WWII did place the people of North America in a better competitive position vs. Europe and Asia. That inequity however, has been remedied by time and the hard work of others.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5330492 - 02/23/06 02:24 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Correction: In spite of government interference from the thirties to the present day
No, history shows that less government intervention in the 20's resulted in the economy ending up in the shit in the 30's. With massive government intervention it recovered.
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5330913 - 02/23/06 09:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890
In 1913, the Sixteenth Amendment permitted Congress to levy a national income tax.
The Federal Reserve act was passed in 1913. As Alan Greenspan tells it, Quote:
If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely ? it was claimed ? there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks ("paper reserves") could serve as legal tender to pay depositors....
When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). . . . The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market-triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's.
The Clayton Act of 1914.
Congress passed the Smoot-Hawley tariff in 1930, increasing the costs of goods coming into the country. Congress doubled tax rates in 1932, increasing business costs. Other new laws and proposals such as the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA) and the Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) attempted to force up commodity prices and reduce output in an attempt to create an economic recovery. Shortly after Roosevelt took office he pursued a deliberate policy of inflation. To keep a run on gold reserves from happening while he devalued the dollar, Roosevelt invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act to justify the confiscation of almost all gold owned by private individuals. The government raised the price of gold from $20 an ounce to $35 an ounce and then paid individuals with cheaper dollars.
Through the NIRA, the government attempted to organize the entire U.S. economy into a series of cartels ranging from forest and wood products to the dog-food industry. Industry groups were required to set minimum wages and minimum prices, hold back production, and prevent new entrants from starting businesses. Through the AAA, the government attempted to increase the incomes of farmers by setting limits on crops and even had agents from the Agricultural Adjustment Administration destroy commodities and animals in order to achieve goals.
It seems to anyone looking at the facts objectively, that in fact the period leading up to the great depression had the most significant government intervention (a government created cartel to control the nation's banking and money supply) since the civil war. After the stock market crash (brought about as the aftermath of a Fed induced credit expansion and speculative bubble), the government increased intervention, unemployment remained high and the economy continued to languish throughout the period until WWII.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5331316 - 02/23/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom.
That sound like they created and artificial debt on the manufactured credit and killed the momentum. If they had been thinking like citizens rather than bankers and business men, they would have distributed the credit debt free through grants to individual citizens, and there wouldn't have been a "speculative boom". Instead they tried to play Investment Banker and shot themselves in the foot.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: seeker]
#5331814 - 02/23/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: If they had been thinking like citizens rather than bankers and business men, they would have distributed the credit debt free through grants to individual citizens,
If you're distributing credit 'debt free through grants to individual citizens' you are not distributing credit, you are just pumping more money into the economy. The extra money would still have worked it's way through the system, distorting demand and the allocation of resources in response to the increased supply of money. Look at the Wiemar Republic and the effect of hyperinflation, is that the result you would have liked?
Quote:
and there wouldn't have been a "speculative boom".
How do you figure? They would have still been increasing the money supply that way as well. The extra dollars would still have lowered the value of the dollar and caused prices to rise. The commodities effected first and most would be those that the recipients of the money decided to buy. Investors seeing the rising prices would have tried to ride the wave of higher prices with speculation on higher prices in those types of things. You are still promoting an economic bubble.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
Edited by Skeptikos (02/23/06 02:06 PM)
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5332079 - 02/23/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Nice job Skeptikos
--------------------
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5332124 - 02/23/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If you're distributing credit 'debt free through grants to individual citizens' you are not distributing credit, you are just pumping more money into the economy.
As opposed to what?
Quote:
You are still promoting an economic bubble.
If the money is not being pulled back out of the economy through artificial debt then "bubble" has substance that gets redistributed. Besides, if the money isn't being given directly to the investors than the growth is gradual and not upsetting.
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: seeker]
#5332184 - 02/23/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
seeker said: As opposed to what?
As opposed to lending money which the borrowers agree to pay back. Money created out of debt at least has some strings attached. This is not to say that this is an ideal situation, just that those benefitting from it have an obligation to give something back.
Quote:
If the money is not being pulled back out of the economy through artificial debt then "bubble" has substance that gets redistributed.
There is no more substance to a bubble created out of printing unbacked money than there is to one created from printing money tied to a promise to pay it back. Monetary inflation, whether created through debt monetization, or the creation of unbacked bills hurts those on the lower end of the economic scale the most. Monetary units become worth less as the supply increases, those with limited incomes are the least likely to save or to have any extra disposable income. They cannot cut back on luxuries which they cannot afford in the first place, usually their monetary existence is hand-to-mouth. Look at your history books about the Wiemar Republic and the Great Depression and how hyper inflation affected the common man.
Quote:
Besides, if the money isn't being given directly to the investors than the growth is gradual and not upsetting.
Not true. Giving counterfeit bills to paupers has at least the same deleterious effects on the economy's health as if you were to give it to the wealthy. At least giving it to people who know how to manage money and make profitable investments involves the chance of a greater productive return, such as the creation of jobs or the investment in production capacity (meaning jobs for those who build the machinery). However, do not take this as an endorsement of handouts to the wealthy. I am advocating no such thing.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery

Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5332229 - 02/23/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
There isn't a dollar in circulation today that isn't "unbacked".
Or if I'm wrong, where do I go to get my gold?
-------------------- In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom. Thou art God (but so am i )
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: seeker]
#5332288 - 02/23/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Richard Nixon removed the final ties to the gold standard, I think in 1971. Since then, large portions of the gold reserves of most major countries have been 'leased' out, presumably in order keep the price of gold from betraying the extent of monetary inflation. These leased reserves (although not in the possession of the central banks) are counted as part of the banks' gold reserves though they are in the hands of others. The central banks of course are playing these cards 'close to the chest' making it difficult to determine what exactly they are up to. Our own Federal reserve is this year discontinuing the publishing of the M3 money supply indicator, also because it shows monetary inflation to be very high (though that's not the official reason).
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5333782 - 02/24/06 12:21 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
You can't deny the 20's were a period of hands-off government which resulted in absolute economic catastrophe. That's the reason laissez-faire/free market ideas went out of fashion for 50 years. Whilst it proved effective in it's main goal of making the rich massively richer it was a complete economic disaster for the country.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5335108 - 02/24/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alex213 said: That's the reason laissez-faire/free market ideas went out of fashion for 50 years.
They did?
--------------------
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5336020 - 02/24/06 08:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Alex213 said: You can't deny the 20's were a period of hands-off government which resulted in absolute economic catastrophe.
So a government charted banking cartel which was granted rights to control the U.S. money supply, credit and standards to thousands of banks all over the country is hands off? The largest intervention in the economy since the Civil War was hands off? I think you should read this post, as I mentioned this and other things.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5336573 - 02/24/06 11:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Events of the 1920s
The Roaring Twenties were an era dominated by Republican presidents: Warren Harding (1920-1923), Calvin Coolidge (1923-1929) and Herbert Hoover (1929-1933). Under their conservative economic philosophy of laissez-faire ("leave it alone"), markets were allowed to operate without government interference. Taxes and regulation were slashed dramatically, monopolies were allowed to form, and inequality of wealth and income reached record levels. The country was on the conservative's preferred gold standard, and the Federal Reserve was not allowed to significantly change the money supply.
The fact that the Great Depression began in 1929, then, on the Republicans' watch, is a great embarrassment to conservative economists. Many try to blame the worsening of the Depression on Hoover, for supposedly betraying the laissez-faire ideology. As the time line in the next section will show, however, almost all of Hoover's government action occurred during his last year in office, long after the worst of the Depression had hit. In fact, he was voted out of office for doing "too little too late." The only notable exception to his earlier idleness was the Smoot-Hawley tariff of 1930, whose minor impact we shall explore in more detail later on.
But much more importantly, the economy was clearly turning downward even before Hoover took office in 1929. Entire sectors of the economy were depressed throughout the decade, like agriculture, energy and mining. Even the two industries with the most spectacular growth -- construction and automobile manufacturing -- were contracting in the year before the stock market crash of 1929. About 600 banks a year were failing. Half the American people lived at or below the minimum subsistence level. By the time the stock market crashed, there was a major glut of goods on the market, with inventories three times their normal size.
The fact that all this occurred even before the first act of government intervention is a major refutation of laissez-faire ideology.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Causes.htm
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5336727 - 02/25/06 12:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
So you totally ignore the creation of the Federal Reserve? Do you believe that government granted cartels which control the money supply and credit have absolutely no bearing on the economic activity of those who use the money? Would you say that such government controlled power granted to an elite minority is somehow laissez-faire?
Do I know you? I dated a girl named Alex once, and she too was totally unable to grasp basic ideas that were laid out in front of her because she was so deeply entrenched in her narrow view of the world that nothing, absolutely nothing, facts, figures, history, mathematics or physics could sway her from the notions that she had gulped down in her ignorant early school years at the knees of her professors. What she swallowed, she accepted as her own, incorporating it into her very being as if she had thought of it herself... defending it as if it were an offspring heaved from her abdomen.
God, I loved that woman... in a carnal way. Empty heads give the best head.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5336806 - 02/25/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Skeptikos said: So you totally ignore the creation of the Federal Reserve? Do you believe that government granted cartels which control the money supply and credit have absolutely no bearing on the economic activity of those who use the money? Would you say that such government controlled power granted to an elite minority is somehow laissez-faire?
I don't doubt that the Fed may have had something to do with the Great Depression, but I think it would be equally foolish to ignore the unchecked power of business in those days.
--------------------
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Silversoul]
#5336852 - 02/25/06 01:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Who was extending easy credit to the businesses? Were there incentives provided in the form of discounted credit? Does easy money tend to make people more carefree or more prudent with their expenditures? How do technological innovations effect transitions in production and investment (there were an awful lot at the turn of the century) ? If the government undertakes actions to promote business, is this laissez faire or is it corporatism? Isn't one of the reasons given for the existence of the Fed, to insure economic productivity or promote upswings in the economy when business cycles are down? Can natural cycles (such as business cycles) be augmented, increasing both peaks and troughs?
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5336892 - 02/25/06 01:45 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
You won't find me arguing that we had a pure laissez faire system back then. But I also happen to think Keynes was onto something. Of course, he didn't quite hit the nail on the head the way Robert Anton Wilson did:
"The right-wing view of government and the left-wing view of big business are both correct."
--------------------
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Skeptikos]
#5337154 - 02/25/06 04:30 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
So you totally ignore the creation of the Federal Reserve?
I don't ignore it, I just don't try and hide behind it in order to ignore the wealth of other evidence that points to failings in the free-market system.
Empty heads give the best head
Are you upset? Or do you still think you are talking to your mother?
Main Causes of the Great Depression
The Great Depression was the worst economic slump ever in U.S. history, and one which spread to virtually all of the industrialized world. The depression began in late 1929 and lasted for about a decade. Many factors played a role in bringing about the depression; however, the main cause for the Great Depression was the combination of the greatly unequal distribution of wealth throughout the 1920's, and the extensive stock market speculation that took place during the latter part that same decade. The maldistribution of wealth in the 1920's existed on many levels. Money was distributed disparately between the rich and the middle-class, between industry and agriculture within the United States, and between the U.S. and Europe. This imbalance of wealth created an unstable economy. The excessive speculation in the late 1920's kept the stock market artificially high, but eventually lead to large market crashes. These market crashes, combined with the maldistribution of wealth, caused the American economy to capsize.
The "roaring twenties" was an era when our country prospered tremendously. The nation's total realized income rose from $74.3 billion in 1923 to $89 billion in 19291. However, the rewards of the "Coolidge Prosperity" of the 1920's were not shared evenly among all Americans. According to a study done by the Brookings Institute, in 1929 the top 0.1% of Americans had a combined income equal to the bottom 42%2. That same top 0.1% of Americans in 1929 controlled 34% of all savings, while 80% of Americans had no savings at all3. Automotive industry mogul Henry Ford provides a striking example of the unequal distribution of wealth between the rich and the middle-class. Henry Ford reported a personal income of $14 million4 in the same year that the average personal income was $7505. By present day standards, where the average yearly income in the U.S. is around $18,5006, Mr. Ford would be earning over $345 million a year! This maldistribution of income between the rich and the middle class grew throughout the 1920's. While the disposable income per capita rose 9% from 1920 to 1929, those with income within the top 1% enjoyed a stupendous 75% increase in per capita disposable income7.
A major reason for this large and growing gap between the rich and the working-class people was the increased manufacturing output throughout this period. From 1923-1929 the average output per worker increased 32% in manufacturing8. During that same period of time average wages for manufacturing jobs increased only 8%9. Thus wages increased at a rate one fourth as fast as productivity increased. As production costs fell quickly, wages rose slowly, and prices remained constant, the bulk benefit of the increased productivity went into corporate profits. In fact, from 1923-1929 corporate profits rose 62% and dividends rose 65%
http://www.gusmorino.com/pag3/greatdepression/
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5338014 - 02/25/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Alex, the fucking linkage comedy continues unabated. Huppi.com. A total nobody. His "expert" assessment of the Depression looks like an essay from economics 101. gusmorino is even better
"Gusmorino, Paul A., III. "Main Causes of the Great Depression." Gusmorino World (May 13, 1996). Online. Internet: http://www.gusmorino.com/pag3/great_depression/index.html. TODAY'S DATE."
He has bibliography of about 6 sources and they look like they might be textbooks. This doesn't even look like a college paper. It's high school.
This is what PinochiAl uses for sources of "expert" opinion. Roommates.
Always check Alex's links. They tend to be somewhat less than authoritative and usually hilarious.
--------------------
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: zappaisgod]
#5338021 - 02/25/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Then you should have no trouble refuting their arguments instead of blowing it out your ass as usual.
Please do so.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5338087 - 02/25/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
The ass exhaust is yours, my friend, and yours alone. You made certain assertions which you backed up with linkages to high school term papers. Very funny. Skeptikos, on the other hand, has pretty much kicked your fraudulent ass.
--------------------
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: zappaisgod]
#5344292 - 02/27/06 06:03 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Can you refute a single point? Or are you all mouth and gutwind?
I think I already know
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5345799 - 02/27/06 03:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Fine, I'll take one line from your roommate Gusmorino's term paper
"The "roaring twenties" was an era when our country prospered tremendously. The nation's total realized income rose from $74.3 billion in 1923 to $89 billion in 1929."
Hmmmmmm. A 20% increase in 6 years. That's slightly more than 2%, when compounded, per annum. Let's call it 2.5%, to be generous. That doesn't strike me as particularly tremendous prosperity seeing as how we're ticking along in the 3 to 4% range for the last couple years of the "Bush depression".
You cite some kid's term paper as authoritative on the causes of the Depression? Are you gusmorino? Or Huppi? Or lazy? That's all the response you'll get from me. Skeptikos already stole your lunch and sent you home with wet pants. You're just so used to it you can't tell anymore.
--------------------
|
Alex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: zappaisgod]
#5348163 - 02/28/06 02:25 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Come again?
"The "roaring twenties" was an era when our country prospered tremendously. The nation's total realized income rose from $74.3 billion in 1923 to $89 billion in 1929."
Which part of this statement is incorrect?
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Alex213]
#5349057 - 02/28/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"prospered tremendously"
2.5% annual growth is not exactly kick ass.
--------------------
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: zappaisgod]
#5349136 - 02/28/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Actually, to go from 74.3 to 89.0 in six years would take an average annual growth rate of around 3.05%, not 2.5%.
Phred
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: Phred]
#5349494 - 02/28/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Incorrect Phred, with compounding it's around 2.5%
--------------------
|
Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: zappaisgod]
#5349505 - 02/28/06 01:50 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I'd like to agree with you , but sadly I cannot. Check your math.
Phred
--------------------
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: zappaisgod]
#5349538 - 02/28/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Fuck it, you are right. Still less than the growth during the current Bush Depression.
--------------------
|
Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: Noam Chomsky: Venezuela is an Example of True Solidarity [Re: zappaisgod]
#5350456 - 02/28/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Current estimates of growth are questionable. GDP is really a measure of economic activity, not productivity. Indeed, if everyone one is furiously downsizing (trading down to cheaper houses and cars) the GDP figures would include each transaction as an increase in GDP. It's really designed to make the government look good. Similarly, core CPI figures currently exclude food and fuel, when these prices are rising. When prices are falling for food and fuel, they will then be counted in the CPI. In March, the M3 figures will no longer be published, this indicator has shown monetary inflation to be running at full gallop. Not publishing these figures will serve to make it harder for investors in dollar based instruments to make decisions that may lead them to dump the dollar should the M3 have provided the signals.
We would all be wise to treat any information coming from the government like we would information coming from used car salesmen, used car salesmen with a history of dishonesty.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
|
|