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 seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery
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Posts: 128
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 The Abstract Machine 
#5319174 - 02/20/06 09:49 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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All human thought is based on the stimulation of our senses. The information we receive is manifested by our bodies as the physical conditions of fear and euphoria, and perceived by our minds as the polar abstractions of love and hate. It is from these two abstractions that all non-analytical thought is formed; language( history, culture, society), money( value, worth), and god( purpose, justice).
From this perspective any action that assumes a reverse in the order of influence is not only false, but ultimately doomed to perversion.
"God is a concept by which we measure our pain." - J.L.
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In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.
Thou art God (but so am i  )
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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 Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5319633 - 02/20/06 11:40 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I disagree. First off, I do not see love and hate as being polar opposites. 
 
Peace. 
--------------------
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery
Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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To love something is to enjoy it and wish/seek to further its existence. 
To hate something is to disparage it and wish/seek to cease its existence. 
You love what is pleasant to you and hate what is unpleasant. The extent to which you do either of these is determined by your love/hate for the individual components of the subject being examined. Your values consist of these individual subjects of love and hate.
Consider love/hate like emotional binary. Sure its only zeros and ones, but its these tiny bits we use to construct our world view.
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In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.
Thou art God (but so am i )
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seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery
Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5320355 - 02/20/06 03:34 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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My point is that these ideas are based on the physical world; the physical world is not based on these ideas. And yet, many seem to cling to the belief of mind over matter.
A really great example is how our daily lives are increasingly based around the concept of money when the concept of money should instead be based around our daily lives. Or how about the basing of national policy on the concepts of evil and righteous when their both based on the concept of god which is in turn based on the concepts of love and hate? At what point does reality come into consideration?
Contemplating existence may reveal the nature of god, but contemplating god will never reveal the nature of existence.
Anyone?
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In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.
Thou art God (but so am i )
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 Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: The Abstract Machine *DELETED* [Re: seeker]
#5320399 - 02/20/06 03:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
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blaze2
The Witness
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Loc: San Antonio, TX
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Lakefingers]
#5320666 - 02/20/06 04:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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lakefingers, have you never had the lightbulb moment? when your looking at a toaster and all of sudden you see the two slots and BAM!!!! all of sudden your thinking of two, two, two, and WHAM!! all of sudden you realize everything is in two, right down to good vs. evil. That in fact the nature of the world has to be twos for there to be a balance. That if good sits on one side evil has to be on the other to keep the balance. That evil works against good drives good to new places. the world would be static and nothing could exist witout its opposite, something to antagonize it, evil if you will. Evil makes the world dynamic. Without it all things must be Good and if they are already completely good, then whats left?
All that came from looking at a toaster, thats how our senses drive our thoughts. Its not that it makes sense, its just how it is.
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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein
"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: blaze2]
#5322911 - 02/21/06 03:38 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ah, well, if that's how it is, then I can't argue with you. That's just how it is and I'll always be wrong according to your standard.
"How things are" is the metaphysical thinking that I am here to challenge.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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> First off, I do not see love and hate as being polar opposites
So what is the polar opposite of love... wealth, perhaps?
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Just another spore in the wind.
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FungusMan
I81U812
Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 3,112
Loc: Everywhere
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Seuss]
#5322939 - 02/21/06 04:17 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thats the biggest speedbump to philosophical disection. Why have "polar" ends? In my beliefs, all things are grouped in threes.
Love, Hate, Greed...Its all emotions regardless. You could put numerous words as the "polar" opposite of "love". Wouldnt "Lust" be as feasable as "Hate"?
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: FungusMan]
#5323062 - 02/21/06 06:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Which testicle is the good one and which is the evil one?
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fresh313
journeyman
Registered: 09/01/03
Posts: 2,537
Last seen: 13 years, 3 days
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Lakefingers]
#5323102 - 02/21/06 06:40 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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the one that gives u cancer and kills u
is that same one that got that 15 year old pregnant
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: FungusMan]
#5323204 - 02/21/06 08:20 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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> Why have "polar" ends?
Because we experience a reality based upon dualism.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery
Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Lakefingers]
#5323340 - 02/21/06 09:28 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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"If all human thought is based on the stimulation of our senses how were you able to entertain a thought based on other thoughts?"
All thoughts are the direct result of physical stimulation. Entertaining a thought based on a thought is like adding one and two and then contemplating three. One, two, and three are all abstractions, but if you have three marbles in front of you then you can label them 123 and directly relate these abstractions to the physical world. On the other hand, if there is only one marble then the idea of two and three are meaningless.
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In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.
Thou art God (but so am i )
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5324115 - 02/21/06 01:46 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree that there is no true polar opposite of love. Hate is just a different kind of love, malformed love. Hate arises only preserve something that one loves or in the absence of love (yearning, frustration, lonliness). But absence does not imply a polar opposite. Just like the polar opposite of chair is not no-chair. The truth is that all things exist on a spectrum, not a duality. Abstract ideas rarely have a true polar opposite but instead only contextual opposites. (is the opposite of sitting standing or lying down? If the opposite of chair was defined by it's opposing function would it be bed or ground?)
And it's the same with what you are talking about. You are viewing thought and reality as two different things, like cause and effect. But it's not that simple. Thought and reality are mutually dynamic, and they feed off of each other. Thoughts can move mountains and mountains can move thoughts. I won't argue for pure Solipsism but I will argue for a kind of psuedo-solipsism in which consciousness plays an integral part in the foundation for existence. This idea is becoming more and more reasonable in light of modern physics.
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seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery
Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5324520 - 02/21/06 03:37 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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"Hate arises only preserve something that one loves..."
For ever action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
"...or in the absence of love"
Polarity implies the possibility for neutrality doesn't it?
"...is the opposite of sitting standing or lying down? If the opposite of chair was defined by it's opposing function would it be bed or ground?"
Throughout your life you are constantly subject to the force of gravity. Even as you sleep you oppose this force with every breath you take. Sitting, standing, or lying down are just different ways to redistribute this force on your body. The idea of chair and bed are just abstractions of this fact.
"Thought and reality are mutually dynamic, and they feed off of each other."
Yes, observation of reality is the cause of thought which can lead to action which then affects reality, but I assure you that reality has never taken consideration of your thoughts before continuing with itself.
"Thoughts can move mountains and mountains can move thoughts."
Consider that the moon alone through its existence has had more affect on our planet than human actions ever will. What do you think about that?
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In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.
Thou art God (but so am i )
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: seeker]
#5325541 - 02/21/06 07:30 PM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Talking about mathematical opposites like opposing force vectors is one thing. Talking about abstract opposites is something completely different.
The context in which you cite Newtons third law makes me think that you don't really understand what it's saying. "Equal and Opposite" simply means that the forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. It does not mean that for a kind of force there is an opposite kind of force.
Polarity does imply the possibility neutrality, but it still rests on the assumption of duality. That's still not the same as a spectrum.
When I say that hate may exist as an absence of love I mean that when when there is no outlet for one to express love then that energy may come out in a malicious form (ie. "hate") but it is still the same type of energy.
Quote:
The idea of chair and bed are just abstractions of this fact.
yes, and that's why we're talking about abstract opposites. There is no true opposite to these ideas, they exist in a dynamic system of interpretation. A multidimensional spectrum, if you will... it's just different forms of the same thing!
Quote:
Yes, observation of reality is the cause of thought which can lead to action which then affects reality, but I assure you that reality has never taken consideration of your thoughts before continuing with itself.
have you ever experienced a reality in absence of thought? Of course not! A reality without observation cannot exist. And if it does then no one has seen it, ipso facto! People talk about an object reality that exists independent of consciousness yet they have no empirical evidence of such a reality. We must accept the fact that consciousness and reality are not two seperate things affecting each other, but instead are ONE system interacting with itself.
does matter cause gravity or does gravity cause matter? Probably neither. They are simply one system and both gravity and matter are just characteristics of that system.
DesCartes believed that mind and matter were not dependent of each other as evidenced by the fact that a corpse could exist without it's mind and a mind could exist without it's corpse (in the form of ghosts). Well now we've thrown the notion of ghosts out the window in this modern age yet we still assume that because we see a body without consciousness that the two are independent. But this assumption is ignoring the fact that the observation of an unconscious corpse still requires the existence of consciousness.
Neither Determinism nor Free-Will truly satisfies the equation. There must be something else on the spectrum between them that does.
Quote:
Consider that the moon alone through its existence has had more affect on our planet than human actions ever will. What do you think about that?
and a single atom has more energy holding it together than you could get from exploding an entire oil refinery... what's your point? And how exactly are you measuring these effects? If you mean on a purely physical aspect then no doubt humans cannot turn the tides... but give our technology another century or two and terra-forming will likely become a reality. In the future we may be crashing comets into planets to create oceans.
The only thing limiting the power of our imaginations is time!
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5327113 - 02/22/06 03:52 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
When I say that hate may exist as an absence of love I mean that when when there is no outlet for one to express love then that energy may come out in a malicious form (ie. "hate") but it is still the same type of energy.
And this is the beauty of the paradox we exist within... a reality based upon duality, yet at some level everything is the same.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5327489 - 02/22/06 09:54 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hehe, you only can hate if you love. The bigger the (former) love, the bigger the hate will be.
Better example is, as said, love seen as the abstract opposite of fear. But then again, it is interesting to see, that some things, you can love and fear at the same time, for example g*d or any kind of '?ber'-parents or something 
(Sorry if OT. I just followed the flow)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: Seuss]
#5327550 - 02/22/06 10:33 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
So what is the polar opposite of love... wealth, perhaps?
I don't necessarily see love as having a "polar opposite", but if there were to be one, it would not be hate, but, rather, fear.
Fear is ultimately responsible for any hate that exists. One would not form hatred towards another if one did not identify another as a threat to some aspect of oneself. Hatred is an emotional reaction as an attempt to dispel one's fear.
Beyond that, I see no reason to suggest that love even has a "polar opposite". As already mentioned, a chair does not have a polar opposite. Emotions aren't binary - if anything, they form a spectrum.
There are those that would suggest that love is a natural state for human beings, which emerges when one is consciously centered within one's being, fully embracing reality as it presents itself. Negative emotional states such as hatred, fear, etc, can be seen as resultant from a progression of mental obstructions that seperate oneself from one's center within being. One can become further and further removed from love, but yet there is no polar opposite to love.
Kudos to Jiggy for some discussion that has assisted the preperation of this post.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
Edited by fireworks_god (02/24/06 11:54 AM)
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seeker
Curator ofBarbaricRefinery
Registered: 03/22/02
Posts: 128
Loc: between Here and There
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: The Abstract Machine [Re: dr0mni]
#5327555 - 02/22/06 10:37 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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"have you ever experienced a reality in absence of thought? Of course not!"
I meditate, and meditation is observation without conscious thought, so yes, of course I have.
"A reality without observation cannot exist. And if it does then no one has seen it, ipso facto!"
No, a reality without the ability to observe it cannot, by definition, ever be proved to exist, but to contemplate such a reality requires the abstract concept of non-existence which is useful only to metaphysics, theology, and science fiction, and has no applicable function in the continued existence of life. If it doesn't exist than why consider it?
"People talk about an object reality that exists independent of consciousness yet they have no empirical evidence of such a reality."
If you were to fall asleep under an overpass and it collapsed and killed you while you slept, then it would be safe to say that any observer would have pretty concrete evidence of such a reality. Of course this requires the observer to consider your consciousness as independent from his own.
"We must accept the fact that consciousness and reality are not two separate things affecting each other, but instead are ONE system interacting with itself."
I agree. My intent was never to claim otherwise, but to say that consciousness is a developed function of reality and is governed by the same observed laws, and to point out that even abstract thought is based on the observed structure of the universe and must be scrutinized and defined in a similar fashion.
Consider that the concept of god came about through the inability to explain such things as the weather which then became attributed to supernatural causes; pain and pleasure become love and hate (if wish to argue this than please post your personal definition so we can compare and contrast); the ability to recognize inconsistencies and misinterpretation in a given situation becomes humor, and the ability to communicate physically, visually, and audibly branches out into language, mathematics, science, and even economics.
I personally make no attempt to explain or even define the original how or why for anyone but myself. What I do attempt to do is follow the progress as far back as I can to understand the correct order of influence for the phenomena of life in order to more accurately chart the possible progress from this point onward.
Rather than masturbation, I prefer to make slow, sweet mental love. 
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In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.
Thou art God (but so am i )
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