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InvisibleRavus
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Re: There is no evil [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #5324188 - 02/21/06 02:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Evil exists or doesn't exist, depending on how you want to define it.

Of course, if you define evil as absolute, then that definition itself will let us realize that evil indeed does not exist, since evil is a label we place on an object, rather than an outcome of the existence of the subject itself. If the subject saw what they were doing as part of the absolute definition of evil, then they wouldn't do it, yet the fact that they don't see themselves as part of this definition lets us know it's not absolute to begin with.

So you're right, there is no evil.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineCerebralFlower
whats left?

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Re: There is no evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5324187 - 02/21/06 02:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

evil is ignorance, evil is STUPIDITY


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God says dance with your heart
And shake free of you desire

Where theres a will theres always a way
When you get confused listen to the music play


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OfflineIrdamage
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Re: There is no evil [Re: Ravus]
    #5324681 - 02/21/06 04:32 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Is evil, evil intent? or evil choices? Further more: can anyone give a pure defintion of evil. without resorting to "The oposite of good".

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: There is no evil [Re: Irdamage]
    #5324792 - 02/21/06 04:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

evil is no more than an opinion.

evil can only come from belief in a supreme moral code from an omnipresent perspective.
I believe this perspective, which is needed for society to exist (atleast in the early stages) is a great part of why religions came about, or atleast the concept of God.

I think anyone can step outside of themselves enough to realize that they do not have the penultimate morality and while they may think something to be an evil act, doesnt make it so.
Once the concept of God was born it took the weight of judgement directly from us, which has not really prevent people from judging, but atleast they then could do it in "faith".... like "Dont get mad at me that homosexuality is evil, God said it! Im just passing on the word".

Look at it this way.... can a dog do an evil act? I dont believe so.... even if a wild dog, not owned or controlled by someone attacks another person, i dont think the dog would ever act out of pure malicious intent. other factors like sensing a threat to its survival is enough to do such a thing... and is it evil to struggle to survive?

Thats basically what evil comes down to.... a malicious extertion of energy designed only to cause destruction, pain, or death with no hint of reason or cause.
Look at your serial killers, many of them were not even evil, because they BELIEVED that it was something they needed to do, there was a reason for their actions.
Take hitler for example, do you think he really just wanted to maliciously exterminate the jews? I think it was due mainly to his paranoia regarding jews taking over the world.

Man makes almost all of his decisions based on survival, and then other decisions based on what they consider to be pure benevolence.
Many people describe things or events as evil based solely on the present time of that event, and never look at the after effects that one event caused.
Not that i am defending hitler, anne frankly i couldnt care, but what if Hitler actually exterminated a disease like AIDs which never had a chance to spread and destroy a much larger portion of the world?

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InvisibleRavus
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Re: There is no evil [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5324862 - 02/21/06 05:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

There is always a reason for our actions according to many psychologists, even if we don't know what they are, as the true reasons may originate beyond our level of conscious thought. This isn't too much of a leap, since mostly everything seems to originate beyond conscious thought. All those things that just come to you suddenly, they certainly don't come out of nowhere, and a serial killer "randomly" killing victims "for no reason" is exactly the same.

But even if you caused destruction for no reason that doesn't have anything to do with your survival but only a desire to see ultimate pain inflicted on people, is that evil? I certainly wouldn't say so, but what about going by your criteria, psilocyberin?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: There is no evil [Re: Ravus]
    #5325043 - 02/21/06 05:55 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I cant think of anything which would be destruction without reason, consciously or subconsciously.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: There is no evil [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #5325088 - 02/21/06 06:05 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I think you might be right, but that same kind of distortion is like those stories of say, Indra the Lightning God of ancient Hinduism who goes about believing that he is God, and there is no other, until Brahman in the form of a humble yogi dispels his ignorance. There is a Gnostic story of the demiurge which says the same thing, and there is this old 'Space 1999' TV show where humans encounter this white light life form that is deadly to look upon (like Zeus and Semele, or YHVH and Moses) who glows on a hill and says "I AM I" (again like YHVH) and who doesn't understand that it is only one being among others.

One attains to a possible Heaven state, which I respect, but the myth of the fall of Lucifer says that even in the highest Heavens, evil can exist. The Kabbalistic sphere 'Geburah' - 'Severity' - the opposite of 'Gedulah' - Mercy -is an aspect of GOD - the isolated aspect that the Nazis were about. Severity without Mercy is Auschwitz. It is like Ram Dass once said: 'Shakti [Power] without Consciousness is just Hitler.' As soon as one comes down to Earth, they must become grounded immediately (I know, some people like us would rather remain footloose, fancy-free puer aeterni, like winged-sandaled Mercury). Without immediate grounding, a space cadet is very like to 'crash' to Earth like Icarus. Daedalus, his father stayed aloft because he recognized the middle way between the sun and the sea (superconsciousness and unconsciousness). Icarus attained too high a state and perished in watery depths. So, when one comes off dangerously inflated, yet back on Earth, I find it necessary to make him/aware of the 'down-side' before the down-side makes him/her aware of It!

A certain amount of peace and love comes down to Earth with theses states, but it seems to depend on the 'karmic' reserves of the tripper. When the good karma wears off, one does not want to find that one has come down in 'the wro-o-ng neighborhood!'  :wink:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: There is no evil [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5327001 - 02/22/06 02:13 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So, when one comes off dangerously inflated, yet back on Earth, I find it necessary to make him/aware of the 'down-side' before the down-side makes him/her aware of It!




Like a Vajra Guru sucker punch <G>


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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: There is no evil [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #5327537 - 02/22/06 10:25 AM (18 years, 3 months ago)

"[...]It (evil) is an outcome of pure intellectual and abstract consideration from conscious intelligence towards the material way of existence and persistence.[...]"


add to whover thinks evil does not exist:

>>It is THAT evil, that makes you believe it does not exist<<

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OfflineImNtCrzy
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Re: There is no evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5327759 - 02/22/06 12:01 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

There is evil in this world. Much much evil. So say that genocide, prejudice, murder et cetera is part of the balance does not make sense to me.

To me the world stands before me as I see it a product of my perception. For me doing evil to myself is anything that keeps me from attaining a higher existence. I think some people fail to realize that we are in this place together, the world is a product of our collective perception. When I doubt myself and my abilities to create good (something that elevates me) that to me is evil. When I choose to do something I know in my heart is wrong for me that is evil, but also when I fear others and act out that is evil, because they are part of us. I guess for me evil is knowingly choosing to betray ourselves.


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everything is the button

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: There is no evil [Re: ImNtCrzy]
    #5328063 - 02/22/06 01:19 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, why there have to die so many people of starvation (every minute) on the one side of the planet while on the other side the food is burned and maniplulated ! To keep the prices up ?!
Holy, that is really EVIL ! For one simple example.
There are so many.
Why is this questioned, again?


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: There is no evil [Re: CerebralFlower]
    #5328163 - 02/22/06 02:04 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Also, the one who fires pistols, in the lung or stomac or other internals, is extremly evil by default. Have you seen someone shot by that ?
That even could fit into the torture-thread :frown:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: There is no evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5328184 - 02/22/06 02:10 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

or what about homosexuals.... those people are evil!

(see how this statement can be scoffed at by some people? it is just a certain threshold of morality, some peoples dividing line between good and evil may be higher or lower than others, but it is only an abstract line that you have drawn, and has no bearing on reality)

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: There is no evil [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5328215 - 02/22/06 02:17 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, so you're saying that there is no absolute morality, and it's all relative? Like Hitler who thought it would be very beneficial and good to eliminate Jews and others whom he saw as being weak.

I agree in part. I think it depends on the frame of reference. However, the Buddha spoke of Right Action, and I do think that they are a good set of guidelines. (I hope I'm not contradicting myself here, I'm feverish)


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"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: There is no evil [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5328219 - 02/22/06 02:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

Homosexuals don't (physically) hurt anyone (else).


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: There is no evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5328277 - 02/22/06 02:44 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

so only physical violence is evil?

Quote:

Like Hitler who thought it would be very beneficial and good to eliminate Jews and others whom he saw as being weak.





just like you think it was not beneficial or good? I dont see where you can claim that your morality is superior to Hitlers. How do you measure that? relative to what? your own morality?

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: There is no evil [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #5328286 - 02/22/06 02:46 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

No, like a compassionate slap-in-the-face from an experienced roshi.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlineblaze2
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Re: There is no evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5328302 - 02/22/06 02:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

I am not saying that evil and good are balanced on opposite ends of a see saw. That is the common mistake I think in people pondering the balance. Instead I look at the moment of perfect balance, the Good, anything that sets it off balance is an evil. For Good breeds only good, further balance, while Evil breeds more evil.

Fireworks your too much,
"Nothing can imbalance the Universe, it is the transitory state of all aspects of the universe that constantly maintains that balance"

Is the universe perfect? nope, so its not in balance. which you agree with when you say it needs to maintain its balance. Then theres teh part where you say nothing can unbalance it, hmmm which is it man?
I'll tell you, There is no pure good, no abosolute morality which has been said in truth by a few other people in this thread. So there can be no perfect balance. Perfect balance is not needed however, look at a see saw if I flicked one end it might wobble a little before returning to its normal position. Think of every evil choice as another little flick, constantlly upsetting the balance so that it can never return to level.

There is a balance in us, in our communities, in our world, and all the balances in the all worlds add up to the great big one of our universe.
We humans for the most part cant hurt anythign but ourselves, and our world(and that only recently), we havent made the impact of a fly landing on the universal balance. that is why we tend to feel evil is just "perspective". To us nothing really changes, life goes on as they say.

Good and Evil are both choices. The balance is seperate, think of good as the steadying hand absorbing vibrations, and Evil as the violent fist pounding away. Neither is harder to make than the other. That is false, who ever said that to hate is easier than to love. If it is true for you then maybe you should take a look at yourself.

Animals are capable of evil, If you think otherwise please explain the elephants that trample their life long trainers for instance. Or the dog that bites his master. You might say they caught a whiff of some danger to their lives or something, yea whatever, animals think man, they may not speak, but they think, they remember(most of the great animals at least), they learn. Creatures of instinct they might be, but that does not preclude them from making choices. Even we feel our animal instincts and we choose in life dont we? Its a proven observation, why make a seperate one for all the animals execpt us. For we are just an animal.


Morality doesnt matter, thats the problem, morality isnt good and evil. Good and Evil are choices, morality is human judgement. Not something I put much faith in. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: There is no evil [Re: blaze2]
    #5328334 - 02/22/06 03:03 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

how is an elephant trampling his life long trainer an evil act?

its like calling the sharks evil for attacking their feeder.

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Offlineblaze2
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Re: There is no evil [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5328375 - 02/22/06 03:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago)

no its not because the sharks never have the connection of love and safety that a trainer and elephant might. A 20 year bond has an effect man. You assume like most foolish humans that we alone are capable of many acts in thinking. simply because animals dont have language. I'm not saying all animals are equal either man. but most of the greater animals are closer to us than to the insect, or fish IMO.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson

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