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Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker
    #531989 -

I realize that a sudden change in temperature can cause glass to break. This is why I allow my pressure cooker to cool right on the stove. However, Jars are breaking. I've done the same method for years now and the last few batches have been the first time I've seen this happen. I also realize that glass is more suceptible to breaking when hot, since the glass has expanded and thus the intermolecular forces keeping the compounds together are weakened.
HOwever, one difference I have noticed is that my all american pressure cooker lid is very hard to take off, even when petroleum jelly lubricates the metal to metal seal. Could this have any influence? I have to *LIGHTLY* tap the lid in order to loosen it and take it off.
One last note:I've been adding slightly more water than before(hot water) to the pressure cooker. the water level is about 1cm above the bottom platform. Could this be the problem and why?

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #532007 -

Are you leaving it on the hot burner, or moving it to a cool one? Are they new Jars, or older Jars? Are they canning Jars, or substitutes? The extra water shouldn't matter. Is it alot of Jars, or only some? Which jars are they in the cooker, inner jars, outer jars? I know over time, my old cooker at about 6 months and beyond also was more difficult to open up. I sometimes used a Screw driver to break the vacum. But as of yet I have never broken a jar, knock on wood, in over 11 years of cooking. The jars inside my last cooker, that I burned a hole in the bottom of, they didn't even crack. Maybe you got a bad batch of Jars?


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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #532064 -

are the jars vented? if the lids are screwed on too tight, it will hold the pressure and possably explode as the jars are heated.


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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #532173 -

I think I know what your problem is. Have you used a scratch pad or something similar lately to scrub your jars? This will create tiny scratches in the glass which will split and crack the glass when it expands from the heat. Cooling has never cracked a jar in my experience and I cool my PC in a sink of cold water.


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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: ]
    #532313 -

1. there were a bunch of jars(stacked to the top).
2. They cooled on the hot burner.
3. some jars were old, some were new. They ALL cracked on the bottom part of the jar and nowhere else.
4. There was one quart jar sitting on a half pint smack in the middle and wasn't touching the walls and it cracked.
5. Jars on the walls also cracked.
6. Jars stacked on top of other jars broke.
7. FUCK!
8. My pressure cooker makes a cracking noise when it starts to heat up. It just sounds like the pressure is locking the lid in place, but I could be wrong.
9. I do use a scrubber to wash the jars, but a new jar broke as well(never thought of that -thanks, even though I've eliminated it as a possibility)
Before this problem happened, I had always placed the hot pressure cooker on my counter top, which is made of tiles(they're pretty cold). I never had any problems.

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #532417 -

Maybe just to much contact between the jars!!! The cooker is supposed to form a vacum, the lubricant just prevents locking completely. You got me stumped!!!

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: ]
    #532455 -

I agree with you Teonan, and considering your posts that I've read, I'm impressed, you know what you're talking about.

Azure, if it's not the scrubber you're using, I'd go back to doing it the way you were before when you were having no problems. If you do come up with another explaination, please inform us as I'm baffled as well.


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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #532505 -

Ive been having problems with Golden Harvest Brand jars cracking lately. I have always done my jars the same way. I think that they are making their glass at far less quality and I have been thinking of calling them to demand reimbursement. Let me know if your using this brand of jars.


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RAW IS NATURE'S FIRST LAW

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: dave]
    #532862 -

Chances are its just a bad batch of jars, I use ball or kerr and I have gone from direct heat to the freezer in trying to get the jars to cool down faster. This is not recommended but the jars didn't break. Sounds like you bought a batch that may have been cooled improperly and develope internal stresses that come out on their first use. Call the company , tell them about this and they will tell you if anybody else has had the same problem, they will probably send a complementary box of jars along with replacements.

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: shroom_tex]
    #532863 -

try cooking them on a towel, thats about all I can think of, is the canning stand still on the bottom of the pot

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #532910 -

>One last note:I've been adding slightly more water than
> before(hot water) to the pressure cooker. the water level
>is about 1cm above the bottom platform. Could this be the
>problem and why?

This IS the problem.
If you heat the whole jar equaly on the whole surface then the whole jar expands at the same amount on every place and there are no tensions in the jar. This happens when the jars sit above the water and are heated by the steam or the jars sit in the water but the water is heated up slowly.

If you heat only one part of the jar quickly then this part expands, and the other part still stays cold and doesn?t expand. Between those 2 parts high tensions evolve and crack the jar.

Solution: either place the jars above the water level, or pour cold water into the pressure cooker and heat the pressure cooker up slowly.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Anno]
    #532987 -

I see your logic, Anno, but that still wouldn't explain why the jar that was directly in the middle that had absolutely no contact with the water or metal walls broke. I know I wasn't very clear on my descriptions, but not all the jars that cracked were in contact with the water...it's just that of the ones that cracked, the bottom portion of the glass broke.
However, I will take your advise with using cold water and less of it. It's cold this time of the year(so the jars when placed in the pressure cooker are cold), and I have always used hot water. Since there isn't much water in the pressure cooker to start with, it boils within two minutes of being placed on the burner(I'm 300 ft. above sea level, so basically at 1atm). However, it takes up to 15 minutes to reach pressure, depending on how much stuff is in there. I will also use less water. I'm starting to guess that it's the heating process that's causing the jars to crack; not the cooling process.
Dave:I'm using BALL jars. I doubt they're lowering the quality of their jars...the material costs almost nothing...it's just the initial invenstment in building a plant that costs a lot.
Hopefully, I'm not the only one learning from this.

Edited by Azure (01/27/02 02:55 PM)

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #539256 -

Hi,
I'm in rush so I haven't had time to read all the replies on this thread so far....but...

AFOAF had the same problem for weeks, possibly even months. Her jars would crack right near the bottom of the jar. Almost where the rounded part started to level off.

Well, She thought and thought and thought some more. She tried SO many different things yet they still broke!

Until one night when a light went off in her head and she figured out what happend. (Or at least it solved her problem)

She does most of her cooking in a large commercial resturaunt (lots of counter space and nice stoves:) And after she'd let her jars cool, she'd sit them on a stainless steel counter top. Well, even after the jars cooled considerably the temperature of the stainless steel still cracked the jars.

The stainless steel was always very cold (to the touch at least.) What did she do?

She got a cookie rack to set her jars on after she PC'd them.

From what I'm told, she's had no problems since.

Lana


--------------------
Myco Supply - Distributors of Mycological Products
http://www.MycoSupply.com

The Premiere Source for Mushroom Growing Supplies.
Visit us online or call us toll free

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Lana]
    #539297 -

Thanks Lana, I'll try that in addition to Anno's advise. Your solution is most likely the answer to my problem. However, I'm not sure whether the jars are cracking when warming up or cooling down(although it seems as though cooling down is more likely because glass is more vulnerable when it's very hot). I've been having problems with jars cracking ever since the lid all of the sudden became hard to take off when the cooker was at room temperature. Whenever the cooker is in the process of reaching 15 psi, it always makes a sudden weird cracking noise, and this noise only happens once. It sounds like the lid is locked in place when this happens(never did this when it was new). This would mean that the volume is slightly expanding at that second, and a force would be exerted from the bottom to the top of the cooker. Since the water vapor isn't escaping (it's not at 15 psi at that point yet), I'm thinking it's a possibility that this force may have something to do with it, but I have no idea. Any other ideas?

Edited by Azure (02/03/02 01:11 PM)

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #539339 -

Also,
Make sure your jars are warm before you start oooking them.

My FOAF would drive for about 20 minutes to go cook in that resturaunt kitchen, but sometimes her jars would sit in the trunk of her car over night. It gets chilly here at night and the jars were cold. So the jars were cold and the stainless steel top they were sitting on was cold too.

She had the same idea that maybe the jars were cracking while getting heated up? Till this day I don't think she knows if it was contributed to heating up or cooling down.

After putting her substrate in her jars, she'd let them sit for a few minutes in the PC while the burner was on. This heated the water and when she but the lid on, it didn't take as long to heat the water up.

MAN I wish there were more hours in the day.....I've gotta run again!

Lana


--------------------
Myco Supply - Distributors of Mycological Products
http://www.MycoSupply.com

The Premiere Source for Mushroom Growing Supplies.
Visit us online or call us toll free

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #539421 -

> it's a possibility that this force may have something to do with it
May the force be with you :wink:

Hmm, I don?t really have any other advice as what I proposed before. The reason for every jar to crack(besides brutal direct mechanical force) is when parts of the jar expand more and faster than other meaning if parts of the jar have a diferent temperature. So my advice would still be to bring the pc to pressure slow and to let it cool down slow.
 


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Anno]
    #540867 -

There's no way that adding hot water could create enough variance in the temperature of glass to compromise the structural integrity of the jar. These canning jars can withstand temperatures FAR higher than what water can reach, even in gaseous form. Teonan mentioned he's cooked for 11 years and never encountered this problem. I've done the same for 9 and only seen the odd jar crack that was dropped previously or a couple that I had used one of those green 3M cleaning pads on. I'd say the only thing that will cause a jar to break from heat are micro-cracks in the glass. These cracks, from my experience, can only be caused by the jar sharply striking another surface or somehow having its surface come in contact with something abrasive enough to leave tiny scratches.

If your theory were correct, he would be seeing the jars crack as he was adding the hot water or the jars to the hot water. No way are they going to begin fracturing from heat stress when the temperatures are actually equalizing inside the cooker.

From The Mushroom Cultivator P. 220:

Grain Culture:

Glass spawn jars broken when pressure cooker is opened.

1.) Pressure cooker cooled too rapidly. Change in temp. too abrupt. - Allow cooker to descend to room temp. gradually.
2.) Jars too tightly packed. - Allow space so jars can expand.
3.) Jars defective or cracked. - Check for cracks or defects. Obtain new jars.
4.) Wrong type of jars. - Replace with canning or autoclavable type.


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Freedom defined is freedom denied.

Nighted is better than Google. Please take time to rate 5/5. Thanks!

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Nighted]
    #540900 -

>These canning jars can withstand temperatures FAR higher
>than what water can reach, even in gaseous form.

Yes off course they can withstand the temperatures, but as I tried to explain, it?s about stress in the material caused by the uneven heating of the jars.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Nighted]
    #541179 -

Thanks everyone for your input. Yeah, as anno said, they can take very high temps, but not very drastic temp. fluctuations. I tried using cold water and using less of it, and less jars cracked, but still, I had a few. They always crack on the bottom. Does anyone know if they make canning jars out of pyrex because I'm tired of this shit. If so, where?

Edited by Azure (02/05/02 10:00 AM)

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #541463 -

Are all the jars from the same box? You might have gotten a box of bad jars. Are you using a spacer between the jars and the bottom of the PC? If the jars are setting on the bottom of the PC, the extreme temperature from the burner can cause the jars to crack (thermal transfer from burner, through the PC, to the jar directly instead of through the water). Are these old jars? The jars can fatigue with repeated use forming microfratures (weak spots). These will eventually break. Can the jars vent properly while PCing? If they are sealed then the pressure will cause them to break. Are the jars cooling slowly? Allow the PC to cool off the burner to room temp (two or three hours) before you open it and remove the jars. Are the jars overfilled? Expanding substrate might be able to create enough force to break the jars, though I have never heard of this being a problem.

If you want to get away from jars, look into bags. You can find spawn bags with gas exchange patches built into them from various sources. There is a bit of a learning curve going from glass to plastic, but once you figure it out, you probably wont want to go back.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Seuss]
    #541920 -

I had this problem. I switched to a guaged PC. Then I used warmer water when making the substrate. and I also elevated the jars from the bottom to about 2 inches. This solved it for me. I use ball jars.


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Keep it ReaL.

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Seuss]
    #542008 -

Azure I have an All American PC too, and it does the exact same pop sound I think you are describing. I have never had a jar crack before though, so I do not think that sound you are hearing has anything to do with it.


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"...Three geese in a flock. One flew east, And one flew west, And one flew over the cuckoo's nest."
Ken Kesey

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: dave]
    #542019 -

I'm a dave who uses golden harvest jars too. Out of 36 brand new jars, 4 cracked during sterilization. The cracks aren't that bad, so I will try to colonize anyway. I don't think they will make another run though.


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"there's only one, but there's really two............"

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: CuckoosNest]
    #545650 -

Thanks Cuckoosnest, that's very helpful.
Urban-I'll try your idea and see if that's the problem.

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #548429 -

I've finally made a batch in which no jars cracked. I don't get it at all, but the temperature of my kitchen has increased from 55 degrees F to 70 degrees F. There's no longer an extreme temperature change when the jars are cooling in the cooker.

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #548434 -

See, that's what I don't get...

I put my PC in a sink of cold water to depressurize it and have never had that happen....mysterious!


--------------------

Freedom defined is freedom denied.

Nighted is better than Google. Please take time to rate 5/5. Thanks!

Edited by Nighted (02/11/02 10:14 PM)

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Re: Jars cracking in Pressure Cooker [Re: Azure]
    #21190244 -

Azure said:
Since there isn't much water in the pressure cooker to start with, it boils within two minutes of being placed on the burner


That's when your jars crack, before you even reach pressure.

Just as you need a slow cooling, you also need a slow heating. If you heat your jars to boling in 2 minutes, they will reach that temperature on the outside of the glass, but the inside layer of glass will still have substrate(room?) temperature. This teperature gap within the glass only happens when heating rapidly or cooling rapidly, since glass does not conduct heat well. This dilation of the outer layer, while the inner layer is contracted, causes huge internal tension in the glass, making it shatter.

The outer bottom of the jar traps some hot steam, making them heat faster, and will generally have better thermal contact with the cool contents of the jar as well, which explains why they are breaking at the bottom.

You need to warm up your jars slow enough, so the contents touching the glass have time to warm up at the same pace with the glass. 2 minutes is way too fast, and you know that if you cooled them in 2 minutes, from boiling to room temp, with running cold tap water, they would shatter. It works the same when heating them up.

PS for those who will cry necro: answering for the readers, not for the posters.

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