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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Freedom of thought ...........
    #5319800 - 02/20/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Reactions?

Holocaust Denier Gets Three Years

The Associated Press
Monday, February 20, 2006; 1:54 PM



VIENNA, Austria -- Right-wing British historian David Irving pleaded guilty Monday to denying the Holocaust and was sentenced to three years in prison, even after conceding he wrongly said there were no Nazi gas chambers at the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Irving, handcuffed and wearing a navy blue suit, arrived in court carrying a copy of one of his most controversial books _ "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," Irving told the court before his sentencing, at which he faced up to 10 years in prison.

He also expressed sorrow "for all the innocent people who died during the Second World War."

But he insisted he never wrote a book about the Holocaust, which he called "just a fragment of my area of interest."

"In no way did I deny the killings of millions of people by the Nazis," testified Irving, who has written nearly 30 books.

Irving's lawyer immediately announced he would appeal the sentence.

"I consider the verdict a little too stringent. I would say it's a bit of a message trial," Elmar Kresbach said.

Irving appeared shocked as the sentence was read. Moments later, an elderly man who identified himself as a family friend called out, "Stay strong, David! Stay strong!" before he was escorted from the courtroom.

Irving, 67, has been in custody since his November arrest on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews. He has contended that most of those who died at concentration camps such as Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.

The court convicted Irving after his guilty plea under the 1992 law, which applies to "whoever denies, grossly plays down, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity in a print publication, in broadcast or other media."

Irving's trial came amid new _ and fierce _ debate over freedom of expression in Europe, where the printing and reprinting of unflattering caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad has triggered deadly protests worldwide.

Kresbach said last month the controversial Third Reich historian was getting up to 300 pieces of fan mail a week from supporters around the world and was writing his memoirs in detention under the working title "Irving's War."

Irving was arrested Nov. 11 in the southern Austrian province of Styria on a warrant issued in 1989. He was charged under a federal law that makes it a crime to publicly diminish, deny or justify the Holocaust.

Irving had tried to win his provisional release on $24,000 bail, but a Vienna court refused, saying it considered him a flight risk.

Within two weeks of his arrest, he asserted through his lawyer that he had come to acknowledge the existence of Nazi-era gas chambers. Before the trial began, Irving told reporters he now acknowledges that the Nazis systematically slaughtered Jews during World War II.

"History is like a constantly changing tree," he said.

In the past, however, he has claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little if anything about the Holocaust, and he has been quoted as saying there was "not one shred of evidence" the Nazis carried out their "Final Solution" to exterminate the Jewish population on such a massive scale.

Vienna's national court, where the trial is being held, ordered the balcony gallery closed to prevent projectiles from being thrown down at the bench, the newspaper Die Presse reported Sunday.

It quoted officials as saying they were bracing for Irving's supporters to give him the Nazi salute or shout out pro-Hitler slogans during the trial.

In 2000, Irving sued American Holocaust scholar Deborah Lipstadt for libel in a British court but lost. The presiding judge in that case, Charles Gray, wrote that Irving was "an active Holocaust denier ... anti-Semitic and racist."

Irving has had numerous run-ins with the law over the years.

In 1992, a judge in Germany fined him the equivalent of $6,000 for publicly insisting the Nazi gas chambers at Auschwitz were a hoax.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5319851 - 02/20/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Holocaust denial should not be illegal and especially not punishable via prison sentences. This is extremely hypocritical of Europe to the world when Austria(Germany is having someone extradited because of this, too) jails a Holocaust denier and Denmark defends freedom of speech and cartoon depictions of Muhammed.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5319863 - 02/20/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It's fucked up. This kind of "thought crime" legislation only serves to strengthen the movements it seeks to suppress. I think free speech is one thing America has gotten right(but the cost of preserving it is eternal vigilance).


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: bukkake]
    #5319882 - 02/20/06 01:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Poster: bukkake
Subject: Re: Freedom of thought ...........

Holocaust denial should not be illegal and especially not punishable via prison sentences. This is extremely hypocritical of Europe to the world when Austria(Germany is having someone extradited because of this, too) jails a Holocaust denier and Denmark defends freedom of speech and cartoon depictions of Muhammed.




since when is denmark and england same country. its like saying they shouldnt do this and this in mexico because of something that happened in canada. but i agree tho, you should be allowed to express your thoughts and ideas about any subject.


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Invisiblebukkake
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: giz]
    #5319937 - 02/20/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Austria and Denmark are very different countries with very different laws. I was speaking in general of Europe. This also looks bad in the context in which it can be construed by Muslims in Europe and the Middle East; punishing Holocaust deniers while celebrating cartoons of Muhammed.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5320125 - 02/20/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

This is so Orwellian i dont even know if i can believe it.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5320225 - 02/20/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Agreed, the cartoons, and the denials of the
Holocaust, fall in the same catagory of freedom of thought.


People who deny the Holocaust are wrong in my opinion, but givng them prison time is a little wacko


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5320427 - 02/20/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Is there anything in the Austrian constitution that guarentees free speech? I have always been under the impression that most european countries did not guarentee free speech... is this a new thing?

Im not trying to be sarcastic here, what kinds of free speech guarentee is in europes various constitutions?


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Offlineheidegger
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: DieCommie]
    #5320738 - 02/20/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Of course freedom of speech is a basic right in Austria. However, there are special paragraphs in the austrian constitution that prohibit activity that is associated with the NAZI regime, its symbols and ideology. These laws are of constitutional rank, so they cannot be overridden by the right of free speech.
These laws made sense when the constitution was written (still under the impression of the war and the post-war times), but are quite displaced nowadays, in my opinion.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: heidegger]
    #5321052 - 02/20/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

all this extreme governmental action does is make it look like this man is right.

maybe he is.

why attack non-truth?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5322043 - 02/20/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

and the justification is:

individual rights do not exist. this man was jailed for the good of the collective.


--------------------



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: wilshire]
    #5322200 - 02/20/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
and the justification is:

individual rights do not exist. this man was jailed for the good of the collective.



And the truth is it's not good for the collective either. As I said, this will only serve to strengthen the neonazi movement.


--------------------


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5322721 - 02/21/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think these laws are now counter productive, they risk creating martyrs, while wrongly creating the impression that the argument can't be won with evidence, only through oppressive laws.

Quote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4734648.stm

But the author and academic Deborah Lipstadt, who Irving unsuccessfully sued for libel in the UK in 2000 over claims that he was a Holocaust denier, said she was dismayed.

"I am not happy when censorship wins, and I don't believe in winning battles via censorship... The way of fighting Holocaust deniers is with history and with truth," she told the BBC News website.





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Offlineheidegger
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: psilomonkey]
    #5322864 - 02/21/06 02:49 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"I think these laws are now counter productive, they risk creating martyrs, while wrongly creating the impression that the argument can't be won with evidence, only through oppressive laws."

Probably true, but from a political viewpoint it is quite understandable why these laws have never been abandoned.

They are of constitutional rank, which means that changing them would be quite non-trivial (I guess these laws were forced on Austria by the allies, so the US might have played a part. I might read up on that).
Far-right and middle-right political parties probably do not want to campaign against them, because it would appear like they sympathize with fascists (probably justifiably so). Middle-left political parties do not campaign against them, because they just don't care about the topic or don't want to create unnecessary stir. And the liberal fundamentalists (like me) are in the minority.


Edited by heidegger (02/21/06 02:50 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: heidegger]
    #5322918 - 02/21/06 03:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Everybody should be free to think and express their non-violent beliefs. I support Iran's holocaust cartoon drive just the same as I support the Dane cartoonists drawing pictures of a bomb totting prophet. If more people drew pictures, or talked, about what was upsetting them rather than resorting to violence, the world would be a mucher nicer place to live. It is insane that somebody is sitting in jail because their view of history is different than mine. It is more insane that the rest of us sit by like sheep allowing the shepards to do as they please at our expense. What a whacked world we have created for ourselves.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineDarcho
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: Seuss]
    #5323840 - 02/21/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:It is insane that somebody is sitting in jail because their view of history is different than mine. It is more insane that the rest of us sit by like sheep allowing the shepards to do as they please at our expense. What a whacked world we have created for ourselves.




To the revolution!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: wilshire]
    #5323865 - 02/21/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

and the justification is:

individual rights do not exist. this man was jailed for the good of the collective.




LoL!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: leery11]
    #5323870 - 02/21/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

all this extreme governmental action does is make it look like this man is right.

maybe he is.

why attack non-truth?




The man in question no longer believes the holocaust never happened. Which makes it seem even more ridiculous to jail him now for something he used to believe.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5324845 - 02/21/06 05:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Irvin isn't a neo-Nazi. Just because someone doesn't belive the stories of the holocaust doesn't mean that they are a Nazi.


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5324847 - 02/21/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MisterMyco said:
Irvin isn't a neo-Nazi. Just because someone doesn't belive the stories of the holocaust doesn't mean that they are a Nazi.



I never said he was. Read carefully.


--------------------


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: Silversoul]
    #5324850 - 02/21/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I never said that you said he was.  Read carefully :smile:


--------------------
"I have never, in all my life, not for one moment, been tempted toward religion of any kind. The fact is that I feel no spiritual void. I have my philosophy of life, which does not include any aspect of the supernatural."
Isaac Asimov


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Offlineheidegger
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5327089 - 02/22/06 03:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Just because someone doesn't belive the stories of the holocaust doesn't mean that they are a Nazi. "

Agreed. However, he DOES sympathize with such groups.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: GazzBut]
    #5327367 - 02/22/06 08:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)


LoL!


is that not correct?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: wilshire]
    #5327837 - 02/22/06 12:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

is that not correct?

No.


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Invisiblemoog
Stranger

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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5328906 - 02/22/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ridiculous. There's more thoughtcrime legislation just passed in the UK:

Quote:


MENACHEM Begin was a magnificent defender of Israel whose spirit lives on in the settlement movement in Gaza. The heroic Palestinians have a just cause for their intifada on the West Bank. The courageous cadres of Chechnya have no alternative but to fight. Down with Robert Mugabe.

The Easter Rising in Dublin is a beacon for Irish liberation from direct rule. Nelson Mandela was a glorious man whose example should be emulated by freedom fighters across the world. Hurrah for the Peshmerga guerrillas and their battle for freedom in Kurdistan!

OK, I?ll come quietly. For I have just broken seven times the new law against glorifying terrorism. Each of these statements are actionable under laws passed by Westminster last week because they glorify contemporary terrorism. They indirectly advocate violent action against presently elected governments.

For example, the Israeli terrorist-turned-premier, Begin, may be long dead, but linking his Irgun guerrilla activities in the 1940s to Israeli settlers indirectly advocates the use of violence against the elected Palestinian authorities

Similarly, applauding the intifada could be interpreted as advocating violence against the Israeli government. The Kurds may be ?on our side? in Iraq, but they also fight for independence against Turkey.

And it goes on. Such is the absurdity of the new laws that it may be impossible for Madonna to use the iconography of Che Guevara in her pop videos. Jenny Tonge, who was sacked from the Liberal Democrats for expressing support for the Palestinians, could find herself in jail.

... Read the rest here





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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: moog]
    #5329087 - 02/22/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i read that on yahoo news... i thought it was pretty funny... but all jokes aside, i think that it's wrong he has to serve 3 hard years in prison for merely speaking what he believes in. he deserves that freedom to speak his mind just like every one of us.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: wilshire]
    #5377269 - 03/08/06 11:22 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Far from correct mush. Id get that dogma checked if I was you...seems like it might be a little faulty...... :smirk:


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: GazzBut]
    #5378022 - 03/08/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

what is their justification?


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: wilshire]
    #5384893 - 03/10/06 09:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Who knows? I just find it amusing how you twist it around to suit your own little intellectual crusade agaisnt the supposed horrors of collectivsim as opposed to the rugged nobleness of libertarian individuality.

Its especially funny as you are a collectivist without even admitting it!!

As I said, get that dogma checked!!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Freedom of thought ........... [Re: GazzBut]
    #5385202 - 03/10/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Care to explain how he is a collectivist?


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