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Offlineknarkkorven
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Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo?
    #5316637 - 02/19/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I have read almost all in "The Lemon Experience... [now a community experiment - please contribute" but the thread is so big that it is hard to get some sort of result on however it it THE way to eat the mushrooms or not.

I want to make it easier for everyone to know if it really is something more than placebo involved. That is why I just have to make this poll. I know there is a forum for polls, but I?m not sure that everyone who has tried the lemon method read in that forum. I hope this is OK with everyone? :wink:
Have you tried the lemon method?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (02/19/06 02:23 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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OfflineDeathCompany
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #5316653 - 02/19/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ive done crushing adn downing cranberry juice not soaking a few times before that thread was created and now i know why id trip so hard havent done it since


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #5316942 - 02/19/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It works if you do it right, and 2-3x potentiation is typical.


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Asante]
    #5317015 - 02/19/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Wiccan Seeker, you seem like a smart guy, how will you explain a 2-3x increase in potency?

does putting the shrooms in citric acid produces salts? this is done anyways in the stomach (which does a much better job to form salts with amines than citric acid) BTW extracting psilocin in lemon can give a faster onset, more intense peak, these claims are not absurd but there is no explonation for a 3x increase in potency.


does citric acid catalyst or converts psilocin to any other drug? i don't think so

does citric acid have effect on receptor binding of serotonogic drugs? i don't think so

so what is in lemon juice that inhibits breakdown of psilocybin= the main metabolic enzyme is monoamine oxidase, but if lemon was an maoi this would have been a well known fact. psilocin is not metabolized by cytochrome P450 enzymes so ...

what do we have left?
alot of enthusiasm and placebo? possible? i think so

a 3x in potency will say that if i used this methodo on 5 grams of mushrooms it would equal eating 15 grams. there is absolute no logic behind the claims. even worse is that there is a sticky claiming 10X potency with use of black currant (which is not even an maoi as claimed in the thread)


Edited by giz (02/19/06 05:05 PM)


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Offlineoblivia
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
    #5317116 - 02/19/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i have read the whole lemon juice thread, and here's what i think about it.

so far we have not figured out why it is a more intense experience, we just know that it is. we also know that the trip lasts shorter. no active substances are wasted, so basically you get more active ingredients in your brains per time unit. this makes sense because the active ingridient is already dissolved, this will greatly accelerate the rate at which it can be taken up by your guts. as far as increasing potency, it is not possible because no active ingredients are formed. its more likely that we mix up intensity and potency. these things dont have to be linear. because the trip lasts shorter, you get maybe 1,5X the normal dose per time unit. this can possibly SEEM like a 2-3x increased intensity of the experience.


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: oblivia]
    #5317126 - 02/19/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

yeah, sorry i misread completly yesterday.

edited away since this post was made with little relevance and thoughts and under the influece of druggies, actually i just saw the error in what i just wrote
:cool:


Edited by giz (02/20/06 06:39 PM)


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OfflineShroomyTunes
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
    #5317185 - 02/19/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Giz, you misunderstood. Oblivia was agreeing with you that it is not an increase in potency.


Edited by ShroomyTunes (02/19/06 05:47 PM)


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OfflineShroomyTunes
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: ShroomyTunes]
    #5317202 - 02/19/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Giz, you misunderstood. Wiccan Seeker never said anything about potency. He said "potentiation". That derives from the word potential not potency.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
    #5317250 - 02/19/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I believe it's a combination of pre-digestion and increased rapidity of absorbtion.

Would it matter for the "high" if I slammed a 16oz can of beer or if I sipped it over the course of three hours?
It would matter a great deal.

Potentiation is commonly defined as an increase in effects, which it does. You can be smart and come up with a theory why it's BS or you can be *wise* and read that thread that has clear responses outnumbering "no change" 5:1

You only prove that your line of thinking is insufficient to explain the observations. Placebo effect is what happens to a minorituy of subjects. Placebo thus clearly is the "no change" group.


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Asante]
    #5319087 - 02/20/06 09:32 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

first of all I have never stated that anything is bullshit, except that black currants are MAOis (how many speed freaks would be hospitilized if black currant juice was an effective maoi), i have made a link to bluelight on that thread where its very well explained. it was stated it increased potency by 10x..

i have never disagreed on potentiation either. i have disagreed that this will make mushroom stronger (in the way that eatin 1 gram with lemon = eating 3grams). yes i can see the diffrence, and i did answer in a hurry and my english is not too well. sorry i read you correct now.

however, you say that placebo is what happens to minority of subjects??. well i might agree to that to a certain point in this partiular matter however on the other hand basing results without any control of the subjects (for all you know 4-5 posters who reported back was smoking crack intead) makes it impossible to rule out anything here. i still belive there can be some subject-expectancy effects here also.
Also note I didnt say it was placebo . only that it is possible.
.

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
You only prove that your line of thinking is insufficient to explain the observations.




yeah , no offense but you wouldnt have the first clue how im thinking so dont try to insult my inteligence. and i havent put so much thoughts into this subjects, fair enough, but you know, what kind of a "community project" is this if you cant ask questions and reflect and not take anything on blind faith to anonymous posters.

sorry my bad english, i know it sucks ass heh

peace


Edited by giz (02/21/06 04:06 AM)


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Offlinestefan
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: oblivia]
    #5320218 - 02/20/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

its more likely that we mix up intensity and potency. these things dont have to be linear. because the trip lasts shorter, you get maybe 1,5X the normal dose per time unit. this can possibly SEEM like a 2-3x increased intensity of the experience.



sounds like this is a very good possibility. :thumbup:


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: stefan]
    #5320228 - 02/20/06 02:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

yes I agree, i misunderstood what he said yesterday but I think that is a much better explanation.


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OfflineShroomRunner
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Asante]
    #5321042 - 02/20/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Placebo's aren't necessarily affecting minority numbers. Sometimes 90% or more of a sample fall for a placebo.

However, the logic of the lemon juice makes sense. If it hits you faster, it will hit you harder. It won't last as long though.

I've done it twice myself.


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: ShroomRunner]
    #5322934 - 02/21/06 04:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Placebo's aren't necessarily affecting minority numbers. Sometimes 90% or more of a sample fall for a placebo.




Exactly, I haver never of anyone ruling out placebo based on majority or minority groups



Edited by giz (02/21/06 05:43 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: giz]
    #5323040 - 02/21/06 06:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

To say something is or isnt placebo should, in the ideal world, be determined by a double-blind study. That study hasn't come yet, so all we have are the observations of a group of people. Almost all of these people report a noticable increase.

It stretches the imagination to call it a placebo effect.

Do the study, get the facts. But up until the moment we have the facts the majority of people who tried it report a distinct potentiation.


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Invisiblegiz
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Asante]
    #5323111 - 02/21/06 06:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

yes, but what do you think about the possibility for subject-expectancy effects then which is diffrent than placebo which im sure you allready know. (especially in the gummihuasca thread) im not gonna argue about lemon, only black currants now hehe and what about using patents as evidence for maoi effects? do you think gummihuasca works? or is these effects the same you see with the lemon method only with a dash of subject expetancy effects..


Edited by giz (02/21/06 07:35 AM)


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Offlinestefan
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Asante]
    #5323119 - 02/21/06 07:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Wiccan what do you think of this?
Sounds logical and isn't about placebo either...
Quote:

stefan said:
Quote:

its more likely that we mix up intensity and potency. these things dont have to be linear. because the trip lasts shorter, you get maybe 1,5X the normal dose per time unit. this can possibly SEEM like a 2-3x increased intensity of the experience.



sounds like this is a very good possibility. :thumbup:




I'm sure this is the case in stead of real potentiation


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Offlinesandman_130
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: stefan]
    #5324357 - 02/21/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'll tell you why it works.

It breaks down the psilocybin into psilocin faster.

When mushrooms are in your stomach, (without having them soak in lemon juice), the body has to use energy and take time for it to convert. And depending on the method of ingestion you might not always get everything that is available in the mushroom.

Psilocin is all about the amount of it you get into your body at the fastest amount of time. That makes trips stronger.

EX: eating 1/4 of pure mushroom powder in 10 minutes

is greater than

Eating an 8th and then an hour later eating another.

Its all about the psilocin and its first intial appearance which can make a trip alot stronger.


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OfflineAlwaysFlowin
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: sandman_130]
    #5324425 - 02/21/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

After reading through the majority of the Experiment thread, what really stood out to me was the large amounts everyone was using.

To me it seems it would be far easier to identify potency increases by taking EXTREMELY small amounts. Therefore, if you trip hard and well off of .5 grams, well then, maybe we have something. Whereas difference between 5 grams and say 8-10 can be very undefined.


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OfflineRemainRandom50
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: AlwaysFlowin]
    #5324614 - 02/21/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i have yet to try this, but will be attempting soon.


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: RemainRandom50]
    #5324846 - 02/21/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I was going to try the lemon method but couldn't find a lemon so I washed down a mouth full of 0.75g of powder really quickly all at once with a glass of good old tap water...

The come up seemed to take forever (between 2-3 hours before I could say I felt anything that I wouldn't hesitate to brush off as mere expectation) but when it hit me, it hit me instantly, just as I thought to myself "well, it's been a few hours, I don't think much more's going to happen" the room started expanding, the pool table looked abnormaly bright and shiny, there were patterns on all the chairs and the ceiling, and well, needless to say I was tripping balls, the whole trip only lasted approx. 3 hours, I had tripped off mush from the same batch a couple months earlier, same dose eaten solid, I tripped but it was mild, good trip, just didn't compare to this, not ready yet to rule out the whole mindset factor but still... The fact is that I ate the powdered mush, waited, then had what I'd consider (after only about 10 trips) a 2g dose of standard/high quality cubensis trip...

So anyways, personally I feel that the majority of these increased effects are due to simply powdering the mushrooms, or at least that plays a good part in it... I have yet to actually try it with any lemon juice


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Offlineknarkkorven
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: StickyWater]
    #5327138 - 02/22/06 04:12 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

But with lemon juice you will feel the effects 10-15 minutes after drinking it. 2-3 hours sounds very strange.

Anyway, I have tried the lemon juice method twice with very good results. I have used mushrooms 50-80 times but the last two with lemon juice have been something out of the ordinary. I have tried mushroom tea, and it does make the trip start faster, but it isn`t the same kind of trip as the ones I get from mixing mushrooms with lemon juice.


Edited by knarkkorven (02/22/06 04:15 AM)


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #5327269 - 02/22/06 07:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Agreed, I found the duration of the come up to be strange as well, complete opposite from what I was expected, I had expected it to hit relatively quickly, as expected though I peaked only a few seconds/minutes after feeling the first effects...

Has anyone else tried downing just a mouthfull of dry powder with a glass of water? Perhaps it's the actual powdering that increases the absorbtion rate while the lemon juice increases the rate at which your body starts metabolising the actual mushrooms (would explain the noticed increase in effects that I had, would also explain why others who used lemon reported the same type of increase except with shorter come-up)

I hadn't eaten that day, but even on days I don't eat it's never taken nearly that long for me to actual feel something strong enough to say "you're tripping" and not "you're head's just playing games with you cause you know you're going to trip soon"

Perhaps try soaking some whole mushrooms in some lemon juice, eat them like you normally would (except with the juice, god someone's mouth's gonna taste awful) and then time the come up to see if you noticed any difference in the rate at which you started to feel them compared to when you eat them alone *shrug*

Placebo or not, it makes your trip seem stronger, I'm not arguing  :tongue2:


Edited by StickyWater (02/22/06 07:05 AM)


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Offlinewhiteboi420
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: StickyWater]
    #5327310 - 02/22/06 07:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

whats happenin on may 2nd Wiccan Seeker?


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Asante]
    #5327589 - 02/22/06 10:51 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
You only prove that your line of thinking is insufficient to explain the observations. Placebo effect is what happens to a minorituy of subjects. Placebo thus clearly is the "no change" group.




That is not true. The placebo group is not determined based on which group felt less. Sometimes the placebo group can be the majority in psychological experiments, or at least can show as much of an effect as the experimental group. Just because a majority of the time the placebo group is what happens to the minority doesnt mean thats how it is everytime. The brain itself is a powerful thing. Take for instance rats fed something that causes their immunities to reduce, then later given water with no chemical to do it, and a majority of the rats bodies reducing immunities.

Although, I do believe the lemon juice does something, I dont think its much more then tea, after trying both and of course normally many times and just about every other way you can eat mushrooms. Tea or any liquid the mushrooms is alloud to sit in (which has been water, tea, orange juice or lemon juice the liquids I've tried). All work just about the same... I do believe the predigestion and the fact with a lemon juice, its one shot, all play into it, but I dont think you can set a "it was 2-5 times stronger, ect" to it. Just comes up faster and hits you harder. If you do it with a smaller dose, the trip is then usually shorter then the 4-6 hours if you eat it. Makes sense though, if all the actives are in the juice then it can be immediatly absorbed by your mouth (the fastest way, how many of you chew your mushrooms and hold them in your mouth to let it absorb for like 10-15 minutes..if you did that with your dose that would probably do something similar) and stomach. I dont think it makes them stonger though, just makes ALL of them hit you quicker.

My 2 cents.


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OfflinePreparationH
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #5327608 - 02/22/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think it's just placebo, on my second trip i used the lemon juice method and all it did was give me a stomache ache, never again.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: knarkkorven]
    #5328086 - 02/22/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My take is that experiences vary from one trip to another in the same person, and even more from person to person.

For me, the lemon method (used only once so far) definitely potentiated the shrooms. I've tripped on shrooms dozens of times, so I know my reactions fairly well. I took 2.15 grams with the lemon, and I definitely tripped harder than any time I took up to 5.5 grams.

The strange thing is: the onset took a fairly long time, about 45 minutes, which is longer than usual. Once the trip kicked in, it also took longer to the peak than usual. Also, the trip definitely lasted longer (which is great, since my shroom trips tend to be shorter than average).

I have used mushroom tea from powdered shrooms quite a few times. The onset was always very quick and very sudden, which made it seem initially like stronger trips, but with hindsight they weren't. They were definitely shorter though, which sucked for me having shorter than average trips in normal conditions. Sometimes I was almost completely down in about 3 hours (from ingestion).

So I can definitely say that for me, the lemon method not only intensifies my trips (at least the one I had), but also extends them in time. Maybe next time things will be different?

And maybe, more likely, there is no rule since this all depends on individual body chemistry. It can work for some and not for others, that doesn't mean some are right and others are wrong...


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Invisibleshriek
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: Aldous]
    #5328098 - 02/22/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

what about the potency of shrooms, can that be a factor in your case? I have had a diffrent potency from 1st to 2nd flush, i almost did not feel anything on 4 grams of the first flush but on the second flush I ate 2 grams i had a full blown level 5 trip.


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Is the lemon method really something more than just placebo? [Re: shriek]
    #5328142 - 02/22/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

In my experience, the shrooms I grow and which I trip off are fairly consistent in potency, also because I all mix them up in the same bag. Anyway, the shrooms themselves are only one factor, I think your set is very important as well, even if you're not always aware of the difference in that.


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