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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Genocide [Re: Phred]
    #557792 - 02/20/02 07:08 PM (22 years, 12 days ago)

Well, according to you the nazis did not commit genocide then because there are still jews around. So, by your logic, or lack of, as long as the Israelis do not murder every arab then they are not commiting genocide. I believe the jew's hate for the arab is just as strong as the nazi hate for the jews was in the 30's. Just because they are picking them off in small groups and not packing them in ovens does not make what they are doing any less shocking and disgusting as what the nazis did to the jews.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

Edited by PGF (02/20/02 07:08 PM)

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InvisibleAgent Cooper
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Registered: 08/03/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: Ariel Sharon (cartoon) [Re: nugsarenice]
    #558070 - 02/21/02 12:15 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

In reply to:

I recently heard that groups of israili soldiers were submitting letters of resignation...




Rebellion Grows Among Israeli Reserve Officers
by
Phil Reeves



Israel's armed forces are struggling to contain the most serious internal challenge of the 16-month Palestinian intifada after more than 100 combat reservist soldiers signed a petition saying they would not serve in the occupied territories.

At least four of the signatories have been stripped of their command positions, and the army's chief of staff, Lt-Gen Shaul Mofaz, declared that "there is no place in Israel's military forces for such occurrences". The petition, which by last night had attracted 104 signatures, has prompted a national debate, and a backlash within the army. Another group of several hundred reservists has signed a counter-petition accusing the petitioners of "lies, distortions and unbridled defamation of the army".

The issue erupted when a group of reservists, led by two young lieutenants, published an indictment of Israel's 35-year occupation in the newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, saying that it was "corrupting the entire Israeli society". Some of the signatories are officers and others are from frontline units - the paratroops, infantry and armoured and artillery corps.

The petition said soldiers had been issued commands while serving in the occupied territories that "had nothing to do with the security of our country", and had "the sole purpose of perpetuating our control" over the Palestinians. "We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people," it stated.

The reservists' protest is the most compelling example of the simmering dissent within Israel over the conflict. In September, more than 65 Israeli teenagers signed a letter to the Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, saying that they would refuse to do compulsory military service because of the "aggressive and racists policies of the Israeli government and army".

A fortnight ago, an article appeared in the Ha'aretz newspaper by Dr Yigal Shochat, a physician who used to be an Israeli fighter pilot, who called on F-16 pilots to refuse to bomb Palestinian cities. At the same time, the army faced intense domestic criticism for demolishing 60 Palestinian homes in a Gaza refugee camp, while the Israeli left has begun to accuse the army of war crimes. The divided opinion in the military ranks was further exposed by revelations that a group of senior reserve officers, led by a brigadier-general, were planning to present the government with proposals for the reoccupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the destruction of the Palestinian Authority.

Refusals to serve are not a new problem for the Israeli army. There were conscientious objectors in the 1982 Lebanon war and the first intifada, from 1987 to 1992. According to a group that represents Israel's refusenik soldiers, Yesh Gvul (translated as "There is a limit"), 49 have been jailed this time round for refusing to go to the occupied territories, 14 of them regular soldiers. Most Israeli men and women are conscripted into military service at age 18 -- men for three years, women for 21 months. Israeli men also usually serve up to one month of reserve duty every year until the age of 45.

Organisers of the reservists' petition say they want to attract the support of at least 500 reservists. They have declined to speak to the foreign press, for fear of fuelling international anti-Israel sentiment. But the Israeli media has pounced on the issue. Itay Sviresky, a lieutenant in a reserve paratroop unit, told Channel Two TV that, "as a human, a citizen and as a Zionist, I feel that there are certain things that I can't take part in. You have to be an occupier -- you can't be an enlightened occupier, you have to be ... a cruel occupier."

The Israeli army has countered with a statement saying that the petitioners were unrepresentative, and pointing out that there is no place for soldiers to choose what jobs they do and do not want. A press officer cited the example of a 56-year-old Tel Aviv lawyer, Avraham Dviri, who finished reserve service eight years ago, but volunteered again last year.

After several Palestinian suicide attacks, Israelis feel even more embattled than ever. Mr Dviri represented the mood of many when he said he "despised" the refusing reservists. "An officer who says that he cannot serve somewhere should not command other soldiers. He should be dismissed with dishonour," he said.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #558081 - 02/21/02 12:23 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

PGF writes:

"Well, according to you the nazis did not commit genocide then because there are still jews around."

Oh, puhleeze! The Nazis were defeated before they could finish the job. That doesn't mean that they were not committing genocide. Even so, they were damn near 100% successful in Poland. There were only 6,000 to 8,000 Polish Jews left alive at the end of WWII.

"So, by your logic, or lack of, as long as the Israelis do not murder every arab then they are not commiting genocide."

No. By my logic, since the Israelis are not even ATTEMPTING to exterminate every Arab within their borders, they are not committing genocide.

"I believe the jew's hate for the arab is just as strong as the nazi hate for the jews was in the 30's."

Then you are wrong. A substantial percentage of Israel's citizenry is Arabic. They coexist peacefully.

"Just because they are picking them off in small groups and not packing them in ovens does not make what they are doing any less shocking and disgusting as what the nazis did to the jews."

It is not even close to being the same thing. The Israelis are not going into Arab neighborhoods, rounding up entire families, and executing them. The ones being shot are combatants. Just because not all of them are as well armed as Israeli soldiers doesn't alter that fact. Your contention is that attacking someone with a rock is not really an attack. Tell that to Reginald Denny.

Is the Israeli reaction to Palestinian attacks excessive? Perhaps. Is it GENOCIDE? Not even close.

To equate Israel's handling of Palestinian combatants with the Nazi's sytematic extermination of Jewish non-combatants is to demonstrate an astounding ignorance of history.

Note that nowhere in any of my posts have I indicated approval of the course of action that Israel is currently following... I am willing to believe there have been instances where rock-throwing Palestinians were killed by Israelis when they could have been disarmed and captured instead. I am merely pointing out that Israel is not engaged in genocide.

pinky






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OfflineTeRzMaStA
Psilocybin Pimp

Registered: 10/08/01
Posts: 1,157
Last seen: 7 years, 7 days
Re: Ariel Sharon (cartoon) [Re: PGF]
    #558085 - 02/21/02 12:29 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

I haven't read this whole thread. I don't really know what's going on, but I have to say fuck those arabs. They shouldn't be throwing rocks.


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Think for yourself; Question Authority

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InvisibleAgent Cooper
veteran

Registered: 08/03/00
Posts: 210
Loc: right behind you
Re: Ariel Sharon (cartoon) [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #558088 - 02/21/02 12:32 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)

A more accurate description the policies of Israel would be ethnic cleansing - all for the sake of securing an aggressive, pure Jewish state.

In my opinion, Zionism and Nazism are not that far removed. Oh, the irony.

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Invisiblebivalve
Stranger
Registered: 07/21/00
Posts: 3,121
Re: Ariel Sharon (cartoon) [Re: Agent Cooper]
    #558117 - 02/21/02 01:07 AM (22 years, 12 days ago)


See, that's his dad there. And the Israeli
soldiers shot the kid right after.


And these girls are sad because their friend
got blown up in a pizzeria.

It's bad.

The people who can fix stuff in the world
have to stop taking sides and selling
guns and bombs and start telling them to
chill out and stop killing each other. And
the Palestinian people and the Israeli
people have to ask the people who run
their countries and people who have guns
not to shoot people from the other country
because it's a bunch of nonsense. Like
those Israeli reservist guys did.

But I doubt that will happen. Israel has
more guns and they'll keep killing people
and building those settlements until the
country that they don't like is pretty much
gone.

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Genocide [Re: Phred]
    #558327 - 02/21/02 09:02 AM (22 years, 11 days ago)

Genocide is genocide. Just because the nazis were far more efficient does not mean the Israelis are not doing the same thing. The nazis had the benefit of a large war to mask their mass killings. Prior to the large war, nazi Germany was probably not unlike Israel except the jews did not throw rocks, they just got shot.

If a large scale war errupted in the middle east, you can be sure that Israel would step up the mass killings, just as nazi Germany did during the war.

I do not understand why the comparrison offends you so much. The similarities are numerous. Both groups, nazis and Israelis could not tolerate the differences of other peoples and by force kept those people separate and killed them while heading a massive propaganda hate campaign against their nemesis.

One big difference is that the Israelis came into that part of the worls and violently displaced the native peoples while the German's were cleansing their own homeland.

If you ask me, the Israelis are the most rascists group on the planet and we support them, foolishly.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Offlinencshroomer
journeyman
Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 87
Loc: Wilmington NC
Last seen: 21 years, 9 months
Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #558400 - 02/21/02 10:11 AM (22 years, 11 days ago)

If some group was suicide bombing places where i lived and then started throwing rocks and molatov cocktails and other shit like that your damn right i'd go around fucking them up. So what if they arent as well armed that's not my fault, they'll either learn real quick to talk to their suppliers or they'll be dead. And hell if i gotta kill their family sometimes to get them to stop shooting and bombing me, my family, and friends well i know where my loyalties lay.


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What the fuck, lets give it a try!

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Genocide [Re: ncshroomer]
    #558437 - 02/21/02 10:52 AM (22 years, 11 days ago)

What if you kicked those people off of their own land and then moved in and pushed them out, cutting off talks with them and basically saying, "we hate you people cause you are different, we are going to harass you and keep you away from these cities we built on land we stole from you"? So they throw some rocks. No reason to shoot babies in the head because of it. You know what happened at Kent state with the National Guard? That is what happens over there except several times a day. Plus, the Israelis do random bombings on Palestinian settlements and they frequently assassinate Palestinians who do not agree with them. If you blindly support that, you would've been one of the sheep to follow hitler right into the holocaust.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Offlinemm.
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Registered: 06/15/99
Posts: 605
Loc: England
Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #558508 - 02/21/02 12:14 PM (22 years, 11 days ago)

This is a good site to get some background on the history of the conflict http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/


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MAPS.org: supporting psychedelic and medical marijuana research since 1986

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #558716 - 02/21/02 03:56 PM (22 years, 11 days ago)

PGF writes:

"Genocide is genocide."

Agreed. But what the Israelis are doing is NOT genocide. Genocide has a very specific definition. YOUR concept of "genocide" is overly broad. This happens all too frequently in this forum. People define a term to mean whatever they wish it to mean, then get all huffy when someone calls them on it. I've been reading your posts for a long time now, PGF. You are more articulate than many who post here, and obviously have a good command of the English language. Why this insistence on defining Israeli over-reaction and brutality as "genocide"? It just makes you look like a fanatic.

"I do not understand why the comparrison offends you so much."

It doesn't OFFEND me at all, except that it trivializes the horror that was the Holocaust. Sadly, this is what is happening more and more in America... adjectives become inflated to the point where they are meaningless. It is no longer sufficient to refer to something interesting as "neat" or "cool". Now it is "AWESOME." An American patriot is no longer a patriot. He is a "FASCIST". Someone who is politically conservative is no longer a conservative. He is a "NAZI".

"Both groups, nazis and Israelis could not tolerate the differences of other peoples..."

But the Israelis DO tolerate the differences of other peoples. A substantial portion of Israel's citizens are Palestinian.

"...and by force kept those people separate and killed them..."

Bullshit. Ever been to Israel? Businesses run by Jews and businesses run by Palestinians are crammed cheek to cheek everywhere you look. These people deal peacefully with each other every day of the year.

"...while heading a massive propaganda hate campaign against their nemesis."

News flash... the hate campaign is orchestrated by Palestinians against Jews. The average Israeli doesn't hate the average Palestinian... he just doesn't want to be killed by the violent ones.

"One big difference is that the Israelis came into that part of the worls and violently displaced the native peoples while the German's were cleansing their own homeland."

Poland was their homeland? France was their homeland? Belgium, Holland, Tunisia... all were the homelands of Germany and had to have their Jewish population eliminated? Pick up a history book before making your next post and avoid embarassing yourself further.

"If you ask me, the Israelis are the most rascists group on the planet..."

More racist than South Africa? Or China? More racist than someone who is the author of hundreds of derogatory posts about "Darkies"?

pinky


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Genocide [Re: Phred]
    #558791 - 02/21/02 05:03 PM (22 years, 11 days ago)

I hate it when i get called out on bullshit.

OK, let's start over, this time non-reactionist:

What the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is attrocious. Constant acts of aggression by Israel ensures that there will never be peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis. In my heart I feel that the Israelis do not want any sort of peace or compromise. Without some compromise the rage the displaced Palestinains feel will not subside but will continue to mount and aggression by both sides will continue to snowball.

What is occuring may not be as dramatic as the holocaust, but it's still pretty damn bad. I dont see how drawing the comparison trivializes the holocaust. Rather, I think the analogy enforces my view that shooting rock hurling children in the head is as bad as gassing them.

A day does not go by where Israeli tanks have not moved further into Palestinian settlements under the pertense of protecting their own settlements. In the process, they are displacing hundreds of Palestinian families, most of which would not be throwing rocks if their homes were not leveled by the Israeli tanks.

Israel has used the 9-11 US bombings and subsequent US war on terrorism as an escuse to step up aggressions, while totally cutting off the peace dialogue and any hope of peace with it.

I do not know a solution, but I feel, in my heart that the actions Israel is taking will just draw this out another decade or two.

What do you think will help end this cycle?


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
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Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #561359 - 02/24/02 07:28 AM (22 years, 8 days ago)

there are 800 000 000 muslims. there is about 1-10% of those who can get really pissed off on Jews because they are doing unjustice.


If every suicide bomber kills 1 Jew, 8 000 000 jews will evaporate.

So, Jews are doing better job for themselves than hitler did. Say bravo to Ariel, because he is doing a good job for all those nazi kids.

I am the first one who will shake his hand, for making better place without Jews.

BTW, a couple of million of those primitive muslims.... the ones who will die in that shit... who cares. They are animals after all. Right, Sharon lovers?

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Genocide [Re: Crobih]
    #561374 - 02/24/02 08:14 AM (22 years, 8 days ago)

What it is Crobih is a classic struggle of primitives. Both sides are not far removed from monkey people. The fact that at this, the dawn of a new century, barbaric tribesmen (Israelis and Palestinians) are still waging endless, meaningles battles against each other reinforces their status as lesser evolved homo sapiens.

If humanity's evolution can be likened to the development of a single human being's personal development from childhood to adulthood, these peoples (Israelis and Palestinians) could be described as the juveniles of the modern world. As the adults of the modern world, the US should punish both sides, corporally. Then, maybe our prescence in that region could shape and mold their primitive emotions into well developed adult behaviors that are more fitting for this century.

agreed?


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Offlinemm.
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Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #561429 - 02/24/02 09:59 AM (22 years, 8 days ago)

I am sure there are some people in the world who view the US as no more than a spoiled, selfish child - quite the playground bully in fact.


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Offlinethenetherworld
journeyman
Registered: 02/05/02
Posts: 67
Last seen: 19 years, 18 days
Re: Genocide [Re: mm.]
    #561606 - 02/24/02 02:05 PM (22 years, 8 days ago)

I'm amazed that religion is always the cause of things like this. The discussion on Isreal doesnt suprise me much, after all they are in the top three in the world for human rights violations. And all in the name of God. How holy is that? But just to be fair the Muslims are just as ignorant.

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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Genocide [Re: mm.]
    #561781 - 02/24/02 05:53 PM (22 years, 8 days ago)

Hey mm, how many spoiled children do you know that have the most technologically advanced "everything"? Your analogy does not jive or flow. Keep trying. We are the smart parents with the Ph.d's. Canadia is the ugly red headed son with mild retardation, etc., etc.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Offlinemm.
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Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #561796 - 02/24/02 06:05 PM (22 years, 8 days ago)

You can't get on well with the other children so you make sure you have bigger and better toys.


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InvisiblePGF
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Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: Genocide [Re: mm.]
    #561818 - 02/24/02 06:33 PM (22 years, 8 days ago)

We get along with all the other adults. Together we all make up the first world. We keep the economies of the world moving. Your silly joke has worn thin. I'm through with you for now.


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Offlinemm.
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Re: Genocide [Re: PGF]
    #561833 - 02/24/02 06:46 PM (22 years, 8 days ago)

heh you're the one that started comparing Palestinians and Israelis to monkey people.


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