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OfflineMklangelo
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Registered: 10/30/01
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Last seen: 22 years, 26 days
Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts...
    #530636 - 01/25/02 12:08 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Please try to dispute/support these facts intellectually without the usuall liberal/conservative bullshit dogma ok people??

Fact#1: An American Citizen was captured by elements of the U.S. Military during an uprising in Mazar e Sharif.

Fact#2: This citizen was in armed opposition to coalition forces. (Now some will disagree with the entire premise that the coalition bases it's presense in the Afghanistan conflict upon, but for the sake of this discussion, we will assume that the coalition has just cause here. If you think otherwise, you need to start another thread entitled " I am a certified IMBECILE, and can only hope to acheive 'MORON' status by studying really HARD in a Pakistani Midrassa for a few years or so")

*Fact #3: Concerning his status as "Detainee" we have two things to consider. First of all, is he subject to Military Tribunal?
ANSWER: No, he is not since he is an American Citizen. As such he is accorded all the rights and responsibilities of same. This is an ELEMENTARY fact that the media has failed to address yet they insist upon posing this question.

The upshot of this post is to affirm that Mr. Walker is recieving the justice he so richly deserves. He is not to be excused because of his youth and inexperience. He, at the time of his capture, was well aware that Coalition forces were in the area and also that Many innocent lives were lost due to 9-11-01. There is also compelling evidence that he was also aware that "a major attack was pending" on American Soil prior to same. He was under arms at the time of his capture. In full knowledge that American Forces were in the area.






*Of course this point is now moot since Mr. Walker has now made a prelinary "Status" appearence in the 5th District Federal Court. Better known as the "Rocket Docket"





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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Mklangelo]
    #530842 - 01/25/02 07:18 AM (22 years, 1 month ago)

****An American Citizen was captured by elements of the U.S. Military during an uprising in Mazar e Sharif. ****

true. Johnny boy was detained within the compounds in Mazar e Sharif when the uprising occured.

****This citizen was in armed opposition to coalition forces. ****

yes he was. He even admitted it both in writing and orally..

****I am a certified IMBECILE, and can only hope to acheive 'MORON' status by studying really HARD in a Pakistani Midrassa for a few years or so")****

ha ha ha..i'm sorry but that was funny

****Concerning his status as "Detainee" we have two things to consider. First of all, is he subject to Military Tribunal? ****

if he was from another country then i would be all for a military tribunal but yet again you're right he's an american and is entitled to due process. As a side note i believe (my opinion) that he should lose his citizenship and be treated the same as the other detainee's.

****The upshot of this post is to affirm that Mr. Walker is recieving the justice he so richly deserves****

The downshot is that he's being treated too nice and being turned into a pop icon

****He is not to be excused because of his youth and inexperience. ****

In my opinion he is an adult and old enough to sit upon 'ol sparky

****He, at the time of his capture, was well aware that Coalition forces were in the area and also that Many innocent lives were lost due to 9-11-01. ****

he knew and supported HIS side's convictions

those facts can NOT be disputed. I don't see how someone could. Anyway great post!!


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #530986 - 01/25/02 12:11 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Who actually knew about opposition forces in Afghanistan? YOu might have, if you had been researching Afghanistan. And who knew that B in Laden was there? He did arrive before 911 right? Maybe he was looking to get fucked up on heroin, found out that the country sucks, and that there was a drought, and the olnly way to live was to go take over some country for food. Like Aghanistan. Mabe he intentionally traveled there to feed people. There was a 1000 to 1 currency ratio. And I do remember seeing starved people and articles on the Pakistani/Afghanistan Border issue involving Pakistan feeding Afghanistan. For all we know we might have acted the same way as he did in the situation. He could have been a non identified agent of the Cia, a spying mercenery. He cuold have been one of those "Spy Magazine" wackos, that actually made contact with the Cia, and felt his mission was to go and feed the starving with his good american money, and then rectify the situation in some sort of holy american mediary way. If I had money I would have traveled there to feed them myself. So who judges that he went there to fight with bin laden and help organize 911 attacks, or who thinks one of my options? I think the government will have a very poor case. You never know though, some people followy the law too closely, and do not think that our constituion if based on the bible and god, before the aforementioned.


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OfflineMklangelo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: nugsarenice]
    #531004 - 01/25/02 12:35 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

The knowledge that there were forces opposing the Taliban was common knowledge to just about anyone that has slightly more than a cursory knowledge of world affairs. It was fairly common knowledge that the Taliban controlled only 80% of Afghanistan. And it was also pretty common knowledge that bin Laden was operating out of Afghanistan since he went there in 1989 to help repel the "Communist Infidels" This was no secret to anyone that pays just a bit of attention to world affairs. It certainly wasn't "inside info" by any means. We knew in 93' when the WTC was bombed, we knew when the U.S. Embassy was bombed in Africa, and we knew when the U.S.S. Cole was attacked also. And along with us knowing, the whole world knew also.

And no, bin Laden didn't go to Afghanistan to "get fucked up on Heroin" He went there for the reason mentioned above. Common knowledge. As far as Afghanistan being screwed up, please don't even try to paint bin Laden as some sort of Saviour, that insults the intellegence of every thinking man and woman you present it too. The country is fucked up for among other reasons, these.
They have had war for the last 24 years. When the Soviets came in 89' to conduct there own misguided adventure there, the tribes all banded together to expell them, and expel them they did. When the Soviets left with their tail between thier legs, the tribal/clan mentality that has ruled that primitive country took over and they decended into a period of lawlessness and territorial struggles that became so bad that the Taliban was welcomed as almost anything was better than the Anarchy and chaos the people were suffering under.


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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Mklangelo]
    #531031 - 01/25/02 01:08 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Serving in a foreign army requires you to give up your US citizenship. The taliban/al-queda may or may not fulfill that requirement.

Little Johnny has also admitted to serving in terrorist action in Kashmir, and so may be tried for that in India.

Anyone who pays any attention to world affairs knows that we've been trying to get Bin laden out of Afghanistan for years. John Walker should have known that, student of middle eastern culture and religion that he is.


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OfflineMklangelo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: wingnutx]
    #531060 - 01/25/02 01:35 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Since the Taliban was only recognized by two or three countries, of which one WAS Pakistan, (I don't really know what the other's may have been) I don't think it qualifies as having had an army under Geneva Conventions. They wore no uniforms which I think is one of the main criteria. That is why spies are not subject to treatment as POW's since they do not "play by the rules of war" Which is preposterous but that is the way international law is constructed concerning this issue. My only fear is that the jury and the leftists in our society will begin to listen to the crap Little Johnny's lawyer and parents are trying to pass off as truth. It's nothing but spin and bullshit because Little Johnny shot his mouth off to the CIA and CNN before his razor sharp intellect caught up to his mouth. His parents are being told what to say so that we can have what we always have in America, a media circus. But I don't think the 5th U.S. District Court is gonna play that shit. They have a reputation for no bullshit, swift justice.


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[red] Life:[/red][blue] Live it foward, understand it backward...[/blue]


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Offlinenugsarenice
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Mklangelo]
    #531085 - 01/25/02 02:17 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

I meant that John Walker might have traveled there to get fucked up on heroin, or feed people. Bin Laden's prescence like you said, was probraly just to start up a new organized heroin cartel, take over land ownership of natural gas, in a puppet government, controlled by his henchmen. Bin Laden was probraly responsible for the 400 people assasinated in May. I asked though did John Walker arrive before 911? So like you said johnny walker is evil and deserves to be improsined, until rehabilitated, unless you would like to kill him yourself Michaelongo? For going there to make his own unbiased opinion on the status of political activity, and starvation. Like I said John Walker could have been an unrecoqnized agent of the central intelligence. You know how that works, you are not allowd to be caught, but if succeed get paid big money.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Mklangelo]
    #531106 - 01/25/02 02:36 PM (22 years, 1 month ago)

Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. were the other two that recognized the taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.


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OfflineBuddha
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Registered: 12/21/99
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Mklangelo]
    #531942 - 01/26/02 11:33 AM (22 years, 30 days ago)

I think that it's too early to make any solid judgements. We probably won't have the entire story for a while, and you never know what could have happen. But from what appears to have happened, it looks like he took up Islam with a lot of passion, and was just misguided. Most of the Taliban are doing what they are doing, not because that have looked at the facts and made a judgement of their own, but because they have been told whats right by people who they look up to. Let's say you were raised a hardcore christian, like many in this world. Then the pope and every other christian you know said, "Cat's are evil, cats are the devils work, you must kill all cats!" And if they're all killing cats and no one is saying that killing cats is wrong, then you're probably going to kill some cats. The Taliban, and little johnny Taliban, are products of their culture, except johnny is a product of the talibans culture, not his own.


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InvisibleAssHumper10K
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Registered: 11/11/01
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Mklangelo]
    #532738 - 01/27/02 04:03 AM (22 years, 29 days ago)

I think I need to get another federal rap. Cant wait to hump that sweet 20 yeahr old ass!


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InvisiblePGF
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #532810 - 01/27/02 06:52 AM (22 years, 29 days ago)

I think that it's too early to make any solid judgements. We probably won't have the entire story for a while, and you never know what could have happen. But from what appears to have happened, it looks like he took up Islam with a lot of passion, and was just misguided. Most of the Taliban are doing what they are doing, not because that have looked at the facts and made a judgement of their own, but because they have been told whats right by people who they look up to. Let's say you were raised a hardcore christian, like many in this world. Then the pope and every other christian you know said, "Cat's are evil, cats are the devils work, you must kill all cats!" And if they're all killing cats and no one is saying that killing cats is wrong, then you're probably going to kill some cats. The Taliban, and little johnny Taliban, are products of their culture, except johnny is a product of the talibans culture, not his own.


Nice analogy buddha, but I am sure you are not saying that his actions are excused because of his past?
Once you are 18, you are totally responsible for your actions and blaming an abusive parent, or wacky cult leader just does not make for a workable defense. Look at all the brainwashed Christians who blow up abortion clinics. They are murderers, plain and simple.

This Johnny kid should not be treated any different than any other Taliban we have locked up in Cuba. Feel sorry for him if you like. But, he is over the age of 18 and as such is responsible for what he has become. You can not blame Islam or bin laden.


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OfflineBuddha
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: PGF]
    #533732 - 01/28/02 06:59 AM (22 years, 28 days ago)

I agree with what you said PGF, that he shouldn't be treated any different than the Taliban members held in Cuba. In fact he should be more responsible for his actions then the rest of the Taliban. Walker was raised in America. He knew what america was about, he knew america. The rest of the taliban have probably only seen pictures of america. The only knowledge they had of America was what senior Taliban leaders told them. And yes, once you are 18 you are totally responsible for your actions, LEGALLY. Also, if you smoke weed or do shrooms you should be locked up, legally.

All I'm saying is that these people weren't born evil, no one is born evil. Thses people are only doing what they think is right. Their only crime is ignorance. If president bush himself grew up under the same conditions as many of the Taliban members did, he would very possibly be a member of the Taliban. And he's the American President, do you think he should be killed growing up in a situation he had no power over? Most of us here are lucky, we have grown up with a fairly decent education. If we had grow up with all our friends and relatives members of the Taliban in afganistan, we would probably want to destroy america too. These people have had hard lives and they're only doing what they think is right. But they are a threat to Americans, no doubt, so we cant let them roam free, but we shouldn't hate them, we should try to understand them, and maybe prevent this situation from occuring again.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #533760 - 01/28/02 08:26 AM (22 years, 28 days ago)

****Their only crime is ignorance. ****

Ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law...the muslim religion doesn't teach murder.

****If president bush himself grew up under the same conditions as many of the Taliban members did, he would very possibly be a member of the Taliban. ****

You don't know that. And that analogy isn't a very good one.

****And he's the American President, do you think he should be killed growing up in a situation he had no power over? ****

If he killed americans then yes.

****Most of us here are lucky, we have grown up with a fairly decent education. ****

I wouldn't call it lucky rather we are civil and value human rights

****If we had grow up with all our friends and relatives members of the Taliban in afganistan, we would probably want to destroy america too. ****

I'm sorry but the "you would do the same thing" argument is very old and not very effective. You don't know that.

****These people have had hard lives and they're only doing what they think is right. ****

Many countries have "hard lives" but you don't see them flying planes into buildings

****These people have had hard lives and they're only doing what they think is right. ****

You understand them...i'll jail them and make them pay the price for murdering innocent civilians..dare i say death penalty..then we can understand them

***and maybe prevent this situation from occuring again***

They only understand violence...this is how to avoid this from happening agin.

This "we need to all get along" argument is just riddled with useless political correctness. Where has political correctness gotten us in the last 10 years? It got us bombed and hated.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #534523 - 01/28/02 11:12 PM (22 years, 27 days ago)

Keep in mind, John Walker Lindh went to Afghanistan and joined the Taliban before September 11, before American troops were even on the ground in Afghanistan, before the U.S. started bombing the place. He was fighting the Northern Alliance and other tribal forces originally. I think he got too caught up with all the jihad crap when he went to Pakistan to one of the schools in the north.. A known area where the Taliban found recruits.


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Edited by Zahid (01/28/02 11:13 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Zahid]
    #534728 - 01/29/02 06:39 AM (22 years, 27 days ago)

****Keep in mind, John Walker Lindh went to Afghanistan and joined the Taliban before September 11, before American troops were even on the ground in Afghanistan, before the U.S. started bombing the place. ****

What am i supposed to keep this in mind for?

****He was fighting the Northern Alliance and other tribal forces originally****

I'm not trying to be a smart ass but what is the point of your post?

****I think he got too caught up with all the jihad crap when he went to Pakistan to one of the schools in the north.. A known area where the Taliban found recruits. *****

See previous statement


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #534754 - 01/29/02 07:46 AM (22 years, 27 days ago)

That point will likely be Walker's defense in court, that is all. I don't have much sympathy for Walker, as he was not only fighting with the Taliban, but he trained with the Al-Qaeda to commit terrorist acts.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Zahid]
    #534793 - 01/29/02 08:59 AM (22 years, 27 days ago)

To bad for him that it was common knowledge that the americans were fighting on the side of the N. Alliance..also being involved in the uprising doesn't help his case either


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #534829 - 01/29/02 09:46 AM (22 years, 27 days ago)

Of course, I'm simply saying he was fighting against the Northern Alliace, before the U.S. started backing them up. Also, he was not involved with the prison uprising at Mazar-e-Shariff. He hid in the basement of the prison for nine days to avoid chaos, and later spoke out against all those who were involved in the uprising because it violated the teachings of the Qur'aan.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Zahid]
    #534848 - 01/29/02 10:01 AM (22 years, 27 days ago)

****.....and later spoke out against all those who were involved in the uprising because it violated the teachings of the Qur'aan.****

When did he speak out? From what i have heard he endorsed not only the uprising but the attack on the US which is also against the Qur'aan..there are too many muslims that use the Qur'aan as an excuse for their downfalls.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #534861 - 01/29/02 10:18 AM (22 years, 27 days ago)

It was mentioned several times on CNN, and other networks either with the early interview they had with him shortly after apprehending him or a later one. Yes, he supported September 11. So do entire minorities of fundamentalists in every Muslim country do, along with that foolish kid who flew a small plane into a building in Florida last month. But John Walker didn't participate in the uprising at Mazar-e-Shariff; he, along with other Taliban/Qaeda fighters who opposed it hid in the basement for 9 days until they were flushed out with freezing water by the Northern Alliance. The way Muslims quote the Qur'aan has nothing to do with this, he was merely obeying its teachings while a handful of other Muslims did not.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Zahid]
    #534928 - 01/29/02 11:34 AM (22 years, 27 days ago)

****until they were flushed out with freezing water by the Northern Alliance.****

Don't forget the deisel fuel too..ha ha

****he was merely obeying its teachings while a handful of other Muslims did not. ****

Keyword being "handful"


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineBuddha
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #535311 - 01/29/02 08:32 PM (22 years, 26 days ago)

Okay, I didn't use a very good or accurate anology. But what I was trying to say is that many of these people (not all) don't know the difference between right and wrong. They were never taught. The fact that many of these people gave their lives to try to kill Americans speaks for itself. They honestly believe that they are doing the right thing. Are they to blame for believing what is being told to them? The people that are teaching them their values are the ones to blame, the one's that know the difference between right and wrong. You cant honestly believe that these people were born evil. If a member of the Taliban or al-queda was cloned and raised in America with traditional american values, do you think they would fly a plane into a building? These people don't understand what they are doing, they are ignorant. And the logical way to fix the problem, in the long run, is to understand them, understand why they believe what they believe, and educate them. By trying to kill them you're just reinforcing their hate for Americans. I'm not disputing what the US has done so far, they don't have much of a choice in the situation they're in, but they should try to prevent this from ever happening again, through education, instead of just killing them every time they pop up.

***They only understand violence...this is how to avoid this from happening agin.***
This statement is almost as ignorant as the ones made by bin laden. These people only understand what has been taught to them. When I say educate them, I dont mean the Taliban being held in Cuba, I mean their kids and their kids' kids. Educate the new generation.



***I wouldn't call it lucky rather we are civil and value human rights***
They are rights for those of us that are privlidged enough to live in more developed countries. They are rights to those of us who live in ceatian, more developed countries, but many people do not have access to an education. We are lucky to have been raised in a generally more developed country with a decent education system.

***This "we need to all get along" argument is just riddled with useless political correctness. Where has political correctness gotten us in the last 10 years? It got us bombed and hated.***
I'm not saying we should stop the war, I strongly support the war on terrorism. They had established themselves in a country and they needed to be stamped out. I'm just saying, for the long term, to truly get rid of this problem don't stamp them out every time they establish themselves, just prevent them from establishing themselves. Just attack the problem at the root.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #535660 - 01/30/02 06:44 AM (22 years, 26 days ago)

****But what I was trying to say is that many of these people (not all) don't know the difference between right and wrong. They were never taught*****

What about the Quraan?(sp)

***The fact that many of these people gave their lives to try to kill Americans speaks for itself. ***

This is what radicals do.

****Are they to blame for believing what is being told to them? ****

Yes....supposedly the Quraan teaches peacefullness.

****You cant honestly believe that these people were born evil****

i never said that

****If a member of the Taliban or al-queda was cloned and raised in America with traditional american values, do you think they would fly a plane into a building****

if he had traditional american values then he wouldn't be an al-queda member so this point is mute.

****These people don't understand what they are doing, they are ignorant. ****

I'm sick of this excuse (must be generational) Ignorance is no excuse to break the law. They even said that the Quraan teaches peace

****And the logical way to fix the problem, in the long run, is to understand them, understand why they believe what they believe, and educate them. ****

Understanding doesn't solve problems..they teach their spawns to kill americans..i don't want to understand them i want them and the peoplre who train them eliminated either in jails or in death..there comes a time in life where talking stops and actions begin.

***but they should try to prevent this from ever happening again, through education, instead of just killing them every time they pop up.****

I'm getting sick of this kumbia campfire talk and political correctness. If the 90's have taught me anything it's that talk is cheap and solves nothing when the other side has no intention on stopping the violence...ask Isreal.

****This statement is almost as ignorant as the ones made by bin laden****

no it's called life..and it's a sad but true statement..however your "lets just talk to them" analogy is not so much ignorant but naive.

***They are rights for those of us that are privlidged enough to live in more developed countries****

Privilaged? Are you feeling guilty???..i was born here, not here because i'm privlaged

****We are lucky to have been raised in a generally more developed country with a decent education system.****

I agree..

****I'm just saying, for the long term, to truly get rid of this problem don't stamp them out every time they establish themselves, just prevent them from establishing themselves. ****

well we will always be hated by those that are green with envy and filled with unwarrented hate. You'd be amazed how constantly getting snuffed out militarily does to your moral and willingness to fight for a cause. I say if the terrorists put their heads up we shoot it off.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineBuddha
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #535908 - 01/30/02 12:45 PM (22 years, 26 days ago)

***supposedly the Quraan teaches peacefullness.***
The Quraan does teach peace, but the Quraan can be interpreted many different ways by many different people. These people were not taught peace.

***This is what radicals do.***
No, that is what martyrs do.

***I say if the terrorists put their heads up we shoot it off.***I agree, but it would be much more effective and humane if were just prevented them from becomming terrorists.

***no it's called life..and it's a sad but true statement..however your "lets just talk to them" analogy is not so much ignorant but naive. ***
This is the last time I am going to say this. I'm not proposing that we talk to them, they are a threat and there minds are already made up, it's too late to just talk to them, that's obvious. They've already committed violent acts against Americans, so its only logical that the US fights back. But maybe we can understand and educate the next generation, so they dont grow up plotting to kill anyone.

***Ignorance is no excuse to break the law***
It's not an excuse to break the law, but if they weren't ignorant they wouldn't break the law. They are doing what they think god wants them to do. They honestly believe that god wants them to commit acts of terrorism. They are misled.

***I'm getting sick of this kumbia campfire talk and political correctness. If the 90's have taught me anything it's that talk is cheap and solves nothing when the other side has no intention on stopping the violence...ask Isreal.***
I'm not saying talk to them, I'm saying educate future generations. I'm not saying stop the war or resolve our problems with words, I thought I made this clear in my last post when I said I support the war on terroerism.

And I know you never said that you think these people were born evil, but if they weren't born evil then something made them evil along the way, and whatever that is is what needs to be put to an end. This is why we have to understand them, they hate us because they never took the time to understand us and we shouldn't make the same mistake. The root of the problem, the root of almost every problem, is ignorance.

These people are a product, and instead of killing off the product every time someone produces them, it would make more sense to discourage people from building the machinery.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #536056 - 01/30/02 02:53 PM (22 years, 26 days ago)

****they hate us because they never took the time to understand us and we shouldn't make the same mistake. ***

what is there to understand? why haven't they took the time to understand our culture? This is a two-way street. I'm all for being involved with the next generation of would-be terrorists but saying that it was our mistake because we didn't understand them is a far and unfair stretch.

in addition they hate us because we are americans..pure and simple

****The root of the problem, the root of almost every problem, is ignorance.***

I agree, however the ignorance is on the side of those that feel the need to kill innocent people that have nothing to do with their hatred.

****These people are a product, and instead of killing off the product every time someone produces them, it would make more sense to discourage people from building the machinery. ****

I agree..too bad there is a lot of this product within our society. Believe me i would love to have good relations with middle eastern countries but it seem to me that if you don't agree with them 100% then you are an infedel and need to die or suffer...am i wrong?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #536133 - 01/30/02 04:37 PM (22 years, 25 days ago)

They hate Americans because they hate the U.S. Government. It's the U.S. government that supports oppresive Arab regimes in order to obtain oil. It's the U.S. that's building arms for the Israeli government, who then kill Palestinians with it (the armed ones, and the un-armed ones) This has been happening for nearly 50 years or so, and they're pissed off. They pervert their own religion so they can justify the murder of innocence. They are so driven by passion and rage they believe if they kill themselves, and kill others in the name of their cause, and in the name of God, that they will instantly be given a seat in Paradise. They believe that Al-Jihad is the quickest way to Heaven. This is a dangerous way of thinking, and all 19 of those foolish hijackers will pay for what they did in the next life, and they will see how much they angered Allah.


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Edited by Zahid (01/30/02 04:40 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Educating future generations [Re: Buddha]
    #536388 - 01/30/02 09:39 PM (22 years, 25 days ago)

Buddha writes:

"I'm not saying talk to them, I'm saying educate future generations."

Excellent plan in theory, but pretty damn difficult to accomplish. This is like saying the Soviet Union would have collapsed decades earlier if only the Soviet youth had been exposed to American educational curricula. It wasn't until the advent of Glasnost that the Soviet youth even HEARD the Western viewpoint.

Exactly HOW can the secular humanist viewpoint be introduced into an educational system where the entire course content is completely controlled and dominated by religious authorities? We have all read reports by now from reporters who have sat in on classes in Islamic schoolrooms... not just Taliban schoolrooms, but Pakistani, Saudi, Iranian, etc. schoolrooms. Those kids are being indoctrinated from their first day of preschool.

Note that I am not disagreeing with you. You definitely are proposing the right remedy. I am simply admitting that I personally am too stupid to figure out how to IMPLEMENT the remedy.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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The dangers of belief in an afterlife [Re: Zahid]
    #536395 - 01/30/02 09:53 PM (22 years, 25 days ago)

Zahid writes:

"...they believe if they kill themselves, and kill others in the name of their cause, and in the name of God, that they will instantly be given a seat in Paradise. They believe that Al-Jihad is the quickest way to Heaven. This is a dangerous way of thinking..."

Agreed. I posted an editorial by Richard Dawkins back in late September that addresses this very point. Here are some excerpts:

"I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don't mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one's own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.

If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world."

"To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used."

Here is the entire editorial. It's not very long, and well worth reading.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum14&Number=399638&Search=true&Forum=Forum14&Words=Richard%20Dawkins&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=399638

pinky







--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (01/30/02 09:59 PM)


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OfflineBuddha
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #536916 - 01/31/02 01:02 PM (22 years, 25 days ago)

***saying that it was our mistake because we didn't understand them is a far and unfair stretch. ***
I never said it was our mistake, I said we should not make the same mistake they have made.

And of course its going to be hard to impliment this resolution, but its also hard to keep chasing terrorist around. Also, this is much more humane and we would be helping them instead of killing them, which is good for everyone.


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OfflineGod_Killer
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #557451 - 02/20/02 12:17 PM (22 years, 5 days ago)

This whole "it's not their fult their crazy murderous wackos" argument just doesn't fly. It's like saying you can talk a rattlesnake outta biting you. It ain't gonna happen. It ain't a rattlesnakes fult he's a rattlesnake. I don't hate or blame it but if it tries to bite me Imma gonna chop it's damned head off. Common sense..:)


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Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy.-Benjamin Franklin


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Offlinesparafucile
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Mklangelo]
    #569076 - 03/03/02 09:58 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Yo wake up. He's a fucking CIA plant. This is how disinformation works in the real world, ladies and gentleman.


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Offlinesaturnalone
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Registered: 03/06/02
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: sparafucile]
    #572070 - 03/06/02 11:53 PM (21 years, 11 months ago)

i agree. he is a CIA grab. They caught him and will use him bigtime. I est. that more than 40 other countries have taliban johnnies wandering around afgan landsscapes. What would the war against terriosism be without taliban johnnny?A war we would not understand. Got to have a traitor so we can act holy as hell. I wish the pipeline would get built so our economy would get better.


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:wink:


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Offlinesaturnalone
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Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Zahid]
    #572104 - 03/07/02 12:18 AM (21 years, 11 months ago)

Zahid, revolution is not a bad word. Today it is. Mention revolution against the government and go to jail as a terriorist. My forefathers made the USA back in 1776 using revolution. If the USA is fucking up overseas than we the people of the USA need to know. Imagine this, the USA was made because of a tax on tea and such. Crazy. Today we pay 20 times more tax on tea. Today we get taxes on smokes and gasoline, our homes, our cars, our animals. People go to jail on drug violitions and laws we never voted on. Its a money making system that is geared for taking the money from the poor and uninformed.
I think we here in the USA are suckers for laws made in our name but we never voted on these laws. The time for revolution here will not come because we have been raised without knowledge of other countries. My opinion is the USA will feel the rage. All i can say is "We the people...should have had better control over our government."
Every single one of the founding fathers of the USA warned about this problem. Pres. Washington said stay out of other peoples shitholes and concentrate on our own business. I wish we had minded our own business, built a strong defense and nuked any shithole that even messed with us. Of course every idiot thinking they could make a buck overseas started playing puppet master and messed up everything.


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:wink:


Edited by saturnalone (03/08/02 09:29 PM)


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