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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Zahid]
    #534928 - 01/29/02 11:34 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

****until they were flushed out with freezing water by the Northern Alliance.****

Don't forget the deisel fuel too..ha ha

****he was merely obeying its teachings while a handful of other Muslims did not. ****

Keyword being "handful"


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineBuddha
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Registered: 12/21/99
Posts: 356
Loc: Toronto
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #535311 - 01/29/02 08:32 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, I didn't use a very good or accurate anology. But what I was trying to say is that many of these people (not all) don't know the difference between right and wrong. They were never taught. The fact that many of these people gave their lives to try to kill Americans speaks for itself. They honestly believe that they are doing the right thing. Are they to blame for believing what is being told to them? The people that are teaching them their values are the ones to blame, the one's that know the difference between right and wrong. You cant honestly believe that these people were born evil. If a member of the Taliban or al-queda was cloned and raised in America with traditional american values, do you think they would fly a plane into a building? These people don't understand what they are doing, they are ignorant. And the logical way to fix the problem, in the long run, is to understand them, understand why they believe what they believe, and educate them. By trying to kill them you're just reinforcing their hate for Americans. I'm not disputing what the US has done so far, they don't have much of a choice in the situation they're in, but they should try to prevent this from ever happening again, through education, instead of just killing them every time they pop up.

***They only understand violence...this is how to avoid this from happening agin.***
This statement is almost as ignorant as the ones made by bin laden. These people only understand what has been taught to them. When I say educate them, I dont mean the Taliban being held in Cuba, I mean their kids and their kids' kids. Educate the new generation.



***I wouldn't call it lucky rather we are civil and value human rights***
They are rights for those of us that are privlidged enough to live in more developed countries. They are rights to those of us who live in ceatian, more developed countries, but many people do not have access to an education. We are lucky to have been raised in a generally more developed country with a decent education system.

***This "we need to all get along" argument is just riddled with useless political correctness. Where has political correctness gotten us in the last 10 years? It got us bombed and hated.***
I'm not saying we should stop the war, I strongly support the war on terrorism. They had established themselves in a country and they needed to be stamped out. I'm just saying, for the long term, to truly get rid of this problem don't stamp them out every time they establish themselves, just prevent them from establishing themselves. Just attack the problem at the root.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #535660 - 01/30/02 06:44 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

****But what I was trying to say is that many of these people (not all) don't know the difference between right and wrong. They were never taught*****

What about the Quraan?(sp)

***The fact that many of these people gave their lives to try to kill Americans speaks for itself. ***

This is what radicals do.

****Are they to blame for believing what is being told to them? ****

Yes....supposedly the Quraan teaches peacefullness.

****You cant honestly believe that these people were born evil****

i never said that

****If a member of the Taliban or al-queda was cloned and raised in America with traditional american values, do you think they would fly a plane into a building****

if he had traditional american values then he wouldn't be an al-queda member so this point is mute.

****These people don't understand what they are doing, they are ignorant. ****

I'm sick of this excuse (must be generational) Ignorance is no excuse to break the law. They even said that the Quraan teaches peace

****And the logical way to fix the problem, in the long run, is to understand them, understand why they believe what they believe, and educate them. ****

Understanding doesn't solve problems..they teach their spawns to kill americans..i don't want to understand them i want them and the peoplre who train them eliminated either in jails or in death..there comes a time in life where talking stops and actions begin.

***but they should try to prevent this from ever happening again, through education, instead of just killing them every time they pop up.****

I'm getting sick of this kumbia campfire talk and political correctness. If the 90's have taught me anything it's that talk is cheap and solves nothing when the other side has no intention on stopping the violence...ask Isreal.

****This statement is almost as ignorant as the ones made by bin laden****

no it's called life..and it's a sad but true statement..however your "lets just talk to them" analogy is not so much ignorant but naive.

***They are rights for those of us that are privlidged enough to live in more developed countries****

Privilaged? Are you feeling guilty???..i was born here, not here because i'm privlaged

****We are lucky to have been raised in a generally more developed country with a decent education system.****

I agree..

****I'm just saying, for the long term, to truly get rid of this problem don't stamp them out every time they establish themselves, just prevent them from establishing themselves. ****

well we will always be hated by those that are green with envy and filled with unwarrented hate. You'd be amazed how constantly getting snuffed out militarily does to your moral and willingness to fight for a cause. I say if the terrorists put their heads up we shoot it off.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineBuddha
enthusiast
Registered: 12/21/99
Posts: 356
Loc: Toronto
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #535908 - 01/30/02 12:45 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

***supposedly the Quraan teaches peacefullness.***
The Quraan does teach peace, but the Quraan can be interpreted many different ways by many different people. These people were not taught peace.

***This is what radicals do.***
No, that is what martyrs do.

***I say if the terrorists put their heads up we shoot it off.***I agree, but it would be much more effective and humane if were just prevented them from becomming terrorists.

***no it's called life..and it's a sad but true statement..however your "lets just talk to them" analogy is not so much ignorant but naive. ***
This is the last time I am going to say this. I'm not proposing that we talk to them, they are a threat and there minds are already made up, it's too late to just talk to them, that's obvious. They've already committed violent acts against Americans, so its only logical that the US fights back. But maybe we can understand and educate the next generation, so they dont grow up plotting to kill anyone.

***Ignorance is no excuse to break the law***
It's not an excuse to break the law, but if they weren't ignorant they wouldn't break the law. They are doing what they think god wants them to do. They honestly believe that god wants them to commit acts of terrorism. They are misled.

***I'm getting sick of this kumbia campfire talk and political correctness. If the 90's have taught me anything it's that talk is cheap and solves nothing when the other side has no intention on stopping the violence...ask Isreal.***
I'm not saying talk to them, I'm saying educate future generations. I'm not saying stop the war or resolve our problems with words, I thought I made this clear in my last post when I said I support the war on terroerism.

And I know you never said that you think these people were born evil, but if they weren't born evil then something made them evil along the way, and whatever that is is what needs to be put to an end. This is why we have to understand them, they hate us because they never took the time to understand us and we shouldn't make the same mistake. The root of the problem, the root of almost every problem, is ignorance.

These people are a product, and instead of killing off the product every time someone produces them, it would make more sense to discourage people from building the machinery.



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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #536056 - 01/30/02 02:53 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

****they hate us because they never took the time to understand us and we shouldn't make the same mistake. ***

what is there to understand? why haven't they took the time to understand our culture? This is a two-way street. I'm all for being involved with the next generation of would-be terrorists but saying that it was our mistake because we didn't understand them is a far and unfair stretch.

in addition they hate us because we are americans..pure and simple

****The root of the problem, the root of almost every problem, is ignorance.***

I agree, however the ignorance is on the side of those that feel the need to kill innocent people that have nothing to do with their hatred.

****These people are a product, and instead of killing off the product every time someone produces them, it would make more sense to discourage people from building the machinery. ****

I agree..too bad there is a lot of this product within our society. Believe me i would love to have good relations with middle eastern countries but it seem to me that if you don't agree with them 100% then you are an infedel and need to die or suffer...am i wrong?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 18 years, 11 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #536133 - 01/30/02 04:37 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

They hate Americans because they hate the U.S. Government. It's the U.S. government that supports oppresive Arab regimes in order to obtain oil. It's the U.S. that's building arms for the Israeli government, who then kill Palestinians with it (the armed ones, and the un-armed ones) This has been happening for nearly 50 years or so, and they're pissed off. They pervert their own religion so they can justify the murder of innocence. They are so driven by passion and rage they believe if they kill themselves, and kill others in the name of their cause, and in the name of God, that they will instantly be given a seat in Paradise. They believe that Al-Jihad is the quickest way to Heaven. This is a dangerous way of thinking, and all 19 of those foolish hijackers will pay for what they did in the next life, and they will see how much they angered Allah.


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Edited by Zahid (01/30/02 04:40 PM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Educating future generations [Re: Buddha]
    #536388 - 01/30/02 09:39 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Buddha writes:

"I'm not saying talk to them, I'm saying educate future generations."

Excellent plan in theory, but pretty damn difficult to accomplish. This is like saying the Soviet Union would have collapsed decades earlier if only the Soviet youth had been exposed to American educational curricula. It wasn't until the advent of Glasnost that the Soviet youth even HEARD the Western viewpoint.

Exactly HOW can the secular humanist viewpoint be introduced into an educational system where the entire course content is completely controlled and dominated by religious authorities? We have all read reports by now from reporters who have sat in on classes in Islamic schoolrooms... not just Taliban schoolrooms, but Pakistani, Saudi, Iranian, etc. schoolrooms. Those kids are being indoctrinated from their first day of preschool.

Note that I am not disagreeing with you. You definitely are proposing the right remedy. I am simply admitting that I personally am too stupid to figure out how to IMPLEMENT the remedy.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
The dangers of belief in an afterlife [Re: Zahid]
    #536395 - 01/30/02 09:53 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Zahid writes:

"...they believe if they kill themselves, and kill others in the name of their cause, and in the name of God, that they will instantly be given a seat in Paradise. They believe that Al-Jihad is the quickest way to Heaven. This is a dangerous way of thinking..."

Agreed. I posted an editorial by Richard Dawkins back in late September that addresses this very point. Here are some excerpts:

"I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don't mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one's own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.

If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr's death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world."

"To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used."

Here is the entire editorial. It's not very long, and well worth reading.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum14&Number=399638&Search=true&Forum=Forum14&Words=Richard%20Dawkins&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=399638

pinky







--------------------


Edited by pinksharkmark (01/30/02 09:59 PM)


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OfflineBuddha
enthusiast
Registered: 12/21/99
Posts: 356
Loc: Toronto
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #536916 - 01/31/02 01:02 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

***saying that it was our mistake because we didn't understand them is a far and unfair stretch. ***
I never said it was our mistake, I said we should not make the same mistake they have made.

And of course its going to be hard to impliment this resolution, but its also hard to keep chasing terrorist around. Also, this is much more humane and we would be helping them instead of killing them, which is good for everyone.


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OfflineGod_Killer
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Registered: 04/03/01
Posts: 137
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Buddha]
    #557451 - 02/20/02 12:17 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

This whole "it's not their fult their crazy murderous wackos" argument just doesn't fly. It's like saying you can talk a rattlesnake outta biting you. It ain't gonna happen. It ain't a rattlesnakes fult he's a rattlesnake. I don't hate or blame it but if it tries to bite me Imma gonna chop it's damned head off. Common sense..:)


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Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy.-Benjamin Franklin


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Offlinesparafucile
Stranger
Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 9
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: Mklangelo]
    #569076 - 03/03/02 09:58 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Yo wake up. He's a fucking CIA plant. This is how disinformation works in the real world, ladies and gentleman.


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Offlinesaturnalone
Stranger
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 8
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts... [Re: sparafucile]
    #572070 - 03/06/02 11:53 PM (21 years, 6 months ago)

i agree. he is a CIA grab. They caught him and will use him bigtime. I est. that more than 40 other countries have taliban johnnies wandering around afgan landsscapes. What would the war against terriosism be without taliban johnnny?A war we would not understand. Got to have a traitor so we can act holy as hell. I wish the pipeline would get built so our economy would get better.


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:wink:


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Offlinesaturnalone
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Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 8
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
Re: Johnny "Taliban"... Lets introduce some facts. [Re: Zahid]
    #572104 - 03/07/02 12:18 AM (21 years, 6 months ago)

Zahid, revolution is not a bad word. Today it is. Mention revolution against the government and go to jail as a terriorist. My forefathers made the USA back in 1776 using revolution. If the USA is fucking up overseas than we the people of the USA need to know. Imagine this, the USA was made because of a tax on tea and such. Crazy. Today we pay 20 times more tax on tea. Today we get taxes on smokes and gasoline, our homes, our cars, our animals. People go to jail on drug violitions and laws we never voted on. Its a money making system that is geared for taking the money from the poor and uninformed.
I think we here in the USA are suckers for laws made in our name but we never voted on these laws. The time for revolution here will not come because we have been raised without knowledge of other countries. My opinion is the USA will feel the rage. All i can say is "We the people...should have had better control over our government."
Every single one of the founding fathers of the USA warned about this problem. Pres. Washington said stay out of other peoples shitholes and concentrate on our own business. I wish we had minded our own business, built a strong defense and nuked any shithole that even messed with us. Of course every idiot thinking they could make a buck overseas started playing puppet master and messed up everything.


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:wink:


Edited by saturnalone (03/08/02 09:29 PM)


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