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SirTripAlot
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WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated
#5305927 - 02/16/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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This is indescribable.....
Port of entry
Frank Gaffney
February 13, 2006
How would you feel if, in the aftermath of 9/11, the U.S. government had decided to contract out airport security to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), the country where most of the operational planning and financing of the attacks occurred? My guess is you, like most Americans, would think it a lunatic idea, one that could clear the way for still more terror in this country. You probably would want to know who on earth approved such a plan ? and be determined to prevent it from happening.
Of course, no such thing occurred after September 11, 2001. In fact, the job of keeping our planes and the flying public secure was deemed to be so important that the government itself took it over from private contractors seen as insufficiently rigorous in executing that responsibility.
Now, however, four-and-a-half years later, a secretive government committee has decided to turn over the management of six of the Nation's most important ports ? in New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Miami, Baltimore and New Orleans ? to Dubai Ports World following the UAE company's purchase of London-based Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co., which previously had the contract.
This is not the first time this interagency panel ? called the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS) ? has made an astounding call about the transfer of control of strategically sensitive U.S. assets to questionable purchasers. In fact, as of last summer, CFIUS had, since its creation in 1988, formally rejected only one of 1,530 transactions submitted for its review.
Such a record is hardly surprising given that the committee is chaired by the Treasury Department, whose institutional responsibilities include promoting foreign investment in the United States. Treasury has rarely seen a foreign purchase of American assets that it did not like. And this bias on the part of the chairman of CFIUS has consistently skewed the results of the panel's deliberations in favor of approving deals, even those opposed by other, more national security-minded departments.
Thanks to the secrecy with which CFIUS operates, it is not clear at this writing whether any such objection was heard with respect to the idea of contracting out management of six of our country's most important ports to a UAE company. There would certainly appear to be a number of grounds for rejecting this initiative, however:
America's seaports have long been recognized by homeland security experts as among our most vulnerable targets. Huge quantities of cargo move through them every day, much of it of uncertain character and provenance, nearly all of it inadequately monitored. Matters can only be made worse by port managers who might conspire to bring in dangerous containers, or simply look the other way when they arrive.
Entrusting information about key U.S. ports ? including, presumably, government-approved plans for securing them, to say nothing of the responsibility for controlling physical access to these facilities, to a country known to have been penetrated by terrorists is not just irresponsible. It is recklessly so.
At the risk of being politically incorrect, the proposed new management will also complicate the job of assuring that the personnel working in these ports pose no threat to their operations ? or to the rest of us. To the extent that we must remain particularly vigilant about young male Arab nationals as potential terrorists, it makes no sense to provide legitimate grounds for such individuals to be in and around some of this country's most important strategic assets.
Of particular concern must be the implications for energy security as a very large proportion of the Nation's oil imports come through the Atlantic and Gulf State ports that the UAE company hopes to take over. For example, Philadelphia alone handles some 85% of the oil coming into the East Coast; New Orleans is responsible for one-seventh of all of our imported energy.
Given such considerations, the question occurs: How could even a stacked deck like the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States find it possible to approve the Dubai Ports World's transaction?
Could it have been influenced by the fact that a former senior official of the UAE company, David Sanborn, was recently named the new administrator of the Transportation Department's Maritime Administration? Until recently, Sanborn was DP World's director of operations for Europe and Latin America.
Or is it because the U.S. government views ? and is determined to portray ? the United Arab Emirates as a vital ally in this war for the Free World? A similar determination has long caused Washington to treat Saudi Arabia as a valued friend, even as the Saudis continue playing a double game whereby they work simultaneously to repress terrorism at home and abet it abroad.
Whatever the explanation, the Nation can simply no longer afford to have the disposition of strategic assets ? including those that have a military or homeland security dimension ? determined by a Treasury-dominated panel whose deliberations and decisions are made in secret without congressional oversight.
Congress should see to it that the United Arab Emirates is not entrusted with the operation of any American ports, and that the Treasury Department is stripped of the lead role in evaluating such dubious foreign investments in the United States.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frank J. Gaffney, Jr., is President of the Center for Security Policy and a columnist for the Washington Times.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (02/17/06 06:11 AM)
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Who comprises this "Committe on Foriegn Investments in the United States" ???
This is absurd
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Of course the spin doctors find nothing wrong, with giving our nationial security away to foriegn nationials.....I wonder how many American private security corporations work in Chinia??
White House Defends Port Sale to Arab Co.
By TED BRIDIS and DEVLIN BARRETT Associated Press Writers
WASHINGTON
The Bush administration on Thursday rebuffed criticism about potential security risks of a $6.8 billion sale that gives a company in the United Arab Emirates control over significant operations at six major American ports.
Lawmakers asked the White House to reconsider its earlier approval of the deal.
The sale to state-owned Dubai Ports World was "rigorously reviewed" by a U.S. committee that considers security threats when foreign companies seek to buy or invest in American industry, National Security Council spokesman Frederick Jones said.
The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, run by the Treasury Department, reviewed an assessment from U.S. intelligence agencies. The committee's 12 members agreed unanimously the sale did not present any problems, the department said.
"We wanted to look at this one quite closely because it relates to ports," Stewart Baker, an assistant secretary in the Homeland Security Department, told The Associated Press. "It is important to focus on this partner as opposed to just what part of the world they come from. We came to the conclusion that the transaction should not be halted."
The unusual defense of the secretive committee, which reviews hundreds of such deals each year, came in response to criticism about the purchase of London-based Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Co.
The world's fourth-largest ports company runs commercial operations at shipping terminals in New York, New Jersey, Baltimore, New Orleans, Miami and Philadelphia.
Four senators and three House members asked the administration Thursday to reconsider its approval. The lawmakers contended the UAE is not consistent in its support of U.S. terrorism-fighting efforts.
"The potential threat to our country is not imagined, it is real," Rep. Mark Foley, R-Fla., said in a House speech.
The Homeland Security Department said it was legally impossible under the committee's rules to reconsider its approval without evidence DP World gave false information or withheld vital details from U.S. officials. The 30-day window for the committee to voice objections has ended.
DP World said it had received all regulatory approvals.
"We intend to maintain and, where appropriate, enhance current security arrangements," the company said in a statement. "It is very much business as usual for the P&O terminals" in the United States.
In Dubai, the UAE's foreign minister described his country as an important U.S. ally but declined to respond directly to the concerns expressed in Washington.
"We have worked very closely with the United States on a number of issues relating to the combat of terrorism, prior to and post Sept. 11," Sheik Abdullah Bin Zayed al-Nahyan told The Associated Press.
U.S. lawmakers said the UAE was an important transfer point for shipments of smuggled nuclear components sent to Iran, North Korea and Libya by a Pakistani scientist, Abdul Qadeer Khan. They also said the UAE was one of only three countries to recognize the now-toppled Taliban as Afghanistan's legitimate government.
The State Department describes the UAE as a vital partner in the fight against terrorism. Dubai's own ports have participated since last year in U.S. efforts to detect illegal shipments of nuclear materials.
Rep. Vito Fossella, R-N.Y., urged congressional hearings on the deal.
"At a time when America is leading the world in the war on terrorism and spending billions of dollars to secure our homeland, we cannot cede control of strategic assets to foreign nations with spotty records on terrorism," Fossella said.
Critics also have cited the UAE's history as an operational and financial base for the hijackers who carried out the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
"Outsourcing the operations of our largest ports to a country with a dubious record on terrorism is a homeland security and commerce accident waiting to happen," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. "The administration needs to take another look at this deal."
Separately, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said Thursday it will conduct its own review of the deal and urged the government to defend its decision.
In a letter to the Treasury Department, Port Authority chairman Anthony Coscia said the independent review by his agency was necessary "to protect its interests."
The lawmakers pressing the White House to reconsider included Sens. Schumer, Tom Coburn, R-Okla., Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., and Chris Dodd, D-Conn., and Reps. Foley, Fossella and Chris Shays, R-Conn.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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gregorio
Too Damn Old


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What will be next?
Handing over control of our missile silos to Al-Queda?
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? [Re: gregorio]
#5309679 - 02/17/06 07:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I dont see why there is no outrage about this issue in the United States?
What is the point of all of this, You mean to tell me that no American security agency has the capability to do this?
I just doesnt make sense to outsource this type of shit!!!
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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gregorio
Too Damn Old


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I am with you completely. It seems to almost border on treason in my opinion. We send soldiers off to Iraq so we will be fighting the terrorist over there instead of over here, and then they turn around and do something like this.
I really do not know what to think about it. That second link listed some of the congressmen who are trying to fight this. I don't know, some people might think it is a waste of time but contact them and your own congressmen and raise hell. It might not do any good but at least you can say we tried.
It's like I said above. What is next? Are we going to hand over control of our missile silos over to Al-Queda next?
I am almost at a lost of words over this one.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? [Re: gregorio]
#5309852 - 02/17/06 09:21 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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You know the US congress it fucked up, when Hiliary leads this fight!!!
My God, this is keeps getting more dumbfounding!
Democrats plan bill to block Dubai-US port deal Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:40 AM ET MORE By Jeremy Pelofsky WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two U.S. Democratic senators said on Friday they would introduce legislation aimed at blocking Dubai Ports World from buying a company that operates several U.S. shipping ports because of security concerns.
Robert Menendez of New Jersey and Hillary Clinton of New York said they would offer a measure to ban companies owned or controlled by foreign governments from acquiring U.S. port operations.
"We wouldn't turn the border patrol or the customs service over to a foreign government, and we can't afford to turn our ports over to one either," Menendez said in a statement.
P&O, the company Dubai Ports World plans to buy for $6.8 billion, is already foreign-owned but the concern is that the purchaser is backed by the United Arab Emirates government.
The UAE company would gain control over the management of major U.S. ports in New York and New Jersey, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Orleans and Miami, sparking national security concerns.
"I will be working with Senator Menendez to introduce legislation that will prohibit the sale of ports to foreign governments," Clinton said in a statement.
Officials with the United Arab Emirates Embassy in Washington could not be immediately reached for comment.
The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, a U.S. inter-agency panel that reviews security implications of foreign takeovers of strategic assets, has already reviewed the transaction and did not object.
Despite that review, some Republicans and Democrats in the U.S. Congress urged the Bush administration to conduct a more rigorous review. They expressed fears that the UAE was used as a conduit for parts used for nuclear proliferation and that the local banking system had been abused by financiers with possible links to terrorist organizations.
U.S. officials have said the UAE has been a solid and cooperative partner in the fight against terrorism, and have praised the UAE for steps to protect its booming financial sector against abuse by terrorism financiers.
Money for the September 11 attacks was wired through the UAE's banking system, according to U.S. officials. Two of the September 11 hijackers were UAE citizens. Continued ...
? Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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daimyo
Monticello

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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? [Re: gregorio]
#5309864 - 02/17/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I wrote my representatives on Tuesday. Still waiting for a reply.
Here's my letter:
Quote:
I am at a total loss for words over the stupidity that has recently taken place. What in the good lord's name is going on here? How can it possibly even be considered to allow a company in the UAE to purchase a company responsible for the security of some of our most important ports?
Are these people on drugs? Do you all just get drunk and sit around smoking rocks and laughing at how much this once great nation is getting fucked up?
I don't know if you're on the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, but I fully expect you to virulently oppose this. I also expect that you will bring this to the attention of your fellow congressmen and start or join any efforts to stop this acquisition.
Please respond in a timely manner outlining your stance on this issue, and let me know if you plan on taking any action.
Thank you for your time.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? [Re: daimyo]
#5309933 - 02/17/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i think its pretty obvious that we don't actually REALLY want to prevent terrorism in America, we just want it to appear that way to those who watch television.
though it would be a good idea to not use those airports if this goes through.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (02/17/06 09:58 AM)
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5309993 - 02/17/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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at first i was like WTF!!!
but from what i understand
1. the Feds run Port Security
2.and a foreign company has been running Port Operations.
3. now that foreign company has sold its operations to another foreign company.
what i don't understand is why an American company does not run the operations.
and IMO its a bad idea for the federal government (union) to run port operations. ( i am sure thats what that cunt Hillary wants)
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: lonestar2004]
#5310486 - 02/17/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
what i don't understand is why an American company does not run the operations.
and IMO its a bad idea for the federal government (union) to run port operations.
I think it a great example of America's commitment to the free market. A certain degree of protectionism is required to protect national security, mainly in the form of assurance of supply and defence interests. However I am sure those concerns have been very carefully examined, especially in this case.
Edited by psilomonkey (02/17/06 01:41 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: psilomonkey]
#5311053 - 02/17/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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psilomonkey stated: I think it a great example of America's commitment to the free market
Call me racist but I do not trust the UAE.
I am sure other country's, make it a president to have their own nationals engage in this type of activity.
How about giving more jobs to Americans?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5311964 - 02/17/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: How about giving more jobs to Americans?
I am starting to wonder if we are too stupid or lazy to do anything anymore.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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gregorio
Too Damn Old


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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5312727 - 02/18/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: psilomonkey stated:
Call me racist but I do not trust the UAE.
There is nothing racist about it. The UAE does have a record of terrorist activities.
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5312912 - 02/18/06 08:44 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said:
I am sure other country's, make it a president to have their own nationals engage in this type of activity.
How about giving more jobs to Americans?
I am sure almost all the staff working at those ports are American. They just work for a company owned by an interest in the UAE.
I would expect countries that export a lot of oil to the US have sizable interests in US based assets. After all they get a huge stack of dollars every year for that oil, a lot of those dollars are used to invest back in the US. This has the advantage of creating the powerhouse economy the US benefits from, however it does mean that a lot of it is going to end up being owned by foreign powers.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: psilomonkey]
#5313067 - 02/18/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Or maybe its a reaction to the possibility that gasoline will not be needed in twenty years....trying to diversify before the end.
FUCK THEM.
Price gouging Arabs in dirty nightshirts.
I come from the adage that the best way to promote Americas economic and social well being IS TO HAVE AMERICANS WORK
This country was founded on hard work. (and slavery unfortunately)
When we have government officials that are willing to outsource our security and work at the same time they can also FUCK THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5329751 - 02/22/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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What a story this is turning out to be.....This is one piece of news I am happy to have uncovered
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5330010 - 02/22/06 11:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Because obviously, any country within 2,000 miles of Afghanistan is run by terrorists.
Complete racist bullshit. I can see someone saying that we shouldn't sell such matters over to foreign powers, yet we've been doing it for a while with China and no one cared. It's only when you sell it to an Arab country that issues arise, eh?
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
#5330022 - 02/22/06 11:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Because obviously, any country within 2,000 miles of Afghanistan is run by terrorists.
Complete racist bullshit. I can see someone saying that we shouldn't sell such matters over to foreign powers, yet we've been doing it for a while with China and no one cared. It's only when you sell it to an Arab country that issues arise, eh?
Agreed. This is a non-issue, IMO.
--------------------
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SirTripAlot
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Silversoul]
#5331542 - 02/23/06 12:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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What about Oman? Or Yemen? Saudi Arabia? Terrorism hot spots.
Just because I dont want a foreign company, owning some of our ports doesn't mean I am racist. It means I think that a AMERICA should do this
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5332067 - 02/23/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Except you didn't have anything to say until it was an Arab country. Is China OK? Last I looked, Great Britain was a foreign country too and they're the country of origin of the previous company, which was bought by DPW.
I'm going to say this as clearly as I can. This company is the third largest port management company in the world. Nowhere else has there ever been a sniff of impropriety regarding any security issues. That is largely because THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SECURITY. It is not what they contracted for. Paradigm's right. This is alarmist bullshit.
--------------------
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
#5332210 - 02/23/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Agreed.
It appears to be a sort of herd mentality among politicians. Most Americans don't understand the situation, hence the main reason there's outrage, and politicians are so slimy that they just act on anything to get more popularity.
I don't blame the Democrats for exploiting this issue, though. We all know that if it was a similar situation with a Democratic president and a Republican minority, the Republicans would act in exactly the same way. What surprises me is how many Republican politicians are going along with it too. Perhaps they're trying to distance themselves from Bush's rather low approval ratings in order to prepare for the coming elections?
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
#5332378 - 02/23/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I heard Russert on Imus the other day and, I'm pretty sure I have this right, he was saying that because this was an election year the Democrats were snatching the issue because they have been seen as cunts on security, the Republicans are snatching the issue because they don't want to be seen as Bush toadies, and Bush is not making an issue because he actually has to govern and this is a good safe way to throw a bone to someone who has been helping us specifically and to the Arab world in general that we won't fuck you if you play nice.
A really good factual piece can be found here: http://www.barking-moonbat.com/
You'll have to scroll down a little to the port article but it is excellent with many links.
--------------------
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
#5332402 - 02/23/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Regardless of the facts of the case, those opposed to this have the political high ground afforded by emotionally colored perception. Perception is what matters in politics, reality is unimportant unless it coincides with what you want others to perceive. Bush has played the fear of terrorism card as often and as aggressively as he could. His opponents as well as his supporters have seen how well it works for him, they would be foolish (from a Machiavellian perspective) to not use this to their advantage.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Skeptikos]
#5332455 - 02/23/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't disagree. I will point out that positions taken to win elections are not always positions that are wise, "pandering to the proletariat" and "rabble rousing" and all that. Bush has no more elections to win, just a country to run.
"political high ground afforded by emotionally colored perception." I don't know that I'd ever use "emotionally colored" and "high ground" in the same sentence but the modifier "political" puts all rationality off the screen so, yeah, I'll go with it.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
#5332466 - 02/23/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'll tell you what, I find this "fear of terrorism card" thing quite tiresome. I live far too close and had far too many friends involved in the smoke and burning to sit and listen to that very much. I'm not scared. Neither am I willing to sit back and do nothing. It's not fear that motivates me. It's fury.
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
#5332471 - 02/23/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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When I speak of high ground in this instance, I mean from a perspective of a contest, it has nothing to do with right or wrong. Now that I think about it, the wording does seem odd seeing as people often talk of 'the moral high ground.'
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
#5332508 - 02/23/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I'll tell you what, I find this "fear of terrorism card" thing quite tiresome.
Me too, but Bush & company keep playing it, to the detriment of the Constitution and our national solvency.
Quote:
Neither am I willing to sit back and do nothing.
Action untempered by wisdom can often be counter productive. Sometimes (not saying that this is the case), inaction is the best course to follow.
Quote:
It's not fear that motivates me. It's fury.
Fear or fury should not be the basis of national policy decisions.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Skeptikos]
#5332534 - 02/23/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fear or fury should not be the basis of national policy decisions.
It always has been.
Why did the US have a revolution against England? Because of both fear of the power of the king and fury at taxation without representation.
Why did we enter the Vietnam War? Fear of the spread of communism.
If you look at history, fear and fury are two of the main driving forces of national policy. Sometimes the results have been positive, other times, not quite so.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Skeptikos]
#5332559 - 02/23/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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"Fear or fury should not be the basis of national policy decisions."
I'm not president and I don't make national policy decisions. I can be as angry as I want. I support Bush against the tide of nitwits because he is not kissing the asses of as many shitbags as most of the previous appeasers have. He somewhat gets it. He is a more responsible adult than I am. Believe me when I tell you that we are all glad I'm not holding the big trigger. But then again, I always knew that. I'm still mighty fucking pissed, though, and find the "fear" card meme insulting and weak. Acting to prevent attacks is not a sign of fear. It is a sign of sanity. Maybe we should say Bush has been playing the "sanity" card. Now that's something no Dem could ever co-opt.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
#5332571 - 02/23/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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When have we caught China involved in terrorism?
When have we caught Great Britain in terrorism?
The answer: we have not. The United Arab Emirates on the other hand, HAS.
Dont fucking throw the race card simply because I am against the Arabs getting this deal.
A nation is defined by three things: its borders, its language, and its culture.
ALL of which, I see getting dribbled away in this "Globalism" bullshit.........I could give a rats ass about the politics of this issue.
I come from the school of thought that Americans should be involved at VITAL AREAS of not only our security, but also our economy.....so we still handle the security of the ports.....why not both????
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5332652 - 02/23/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: When have we caught China involved in terrorism?
Good joke
Quote:
When have we caught Great Britain in terrorism?
Ask the Irish
Quote:
The answer: we have not. The United Arab Emirates on the other hand, HAS.
Link please, and try not to confuse the acts of individuals with the acts of a government
Quote:
Dont fucking throw the race card simply because I am against the Arabs getting this deal.
A nation is defined by three things: its borders, its language, and its culture.
Do you think that as an American you should be judged as a compatriot of Ted Bundy? John Wayne Gacy? Local skinhead organization? You're definition of a nation is assinine, as well.Quote:
ALL of which, I see getting dribbled away in this "Globalism" bullshit.........I could give a rats ass about the politics of this issue.
I come from the school of thought that Americans should be involved at VITAL AREAS of not only our security, but also our economy.....so we still handle the security of the ports.....why not both????
You ask "Why not?" Because they didn't bid enough. Are you an isolationaist? Protectionist? This whole thing got blown up because some unions felt threatened. Americans got where they are and will only stay there when they can COMPETE successfully. Coddling them will not achieve that.
--------------------
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5332675 - 02/23/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dont fucking throw the race card simply because I am against the Arabs getting this deal.

That's a pretty ironic sentence, my friend. But you are saying that we should not give this deal to a company simply because they are based in an Arab country, true? Despite the fact that the company itself is multinational and has already been examined by the federal government before it gave them this deal, the simple fact that it's based in an Arab country, the UAE, is what is determining your fury over this decision, correct? I only use the so-called "race card" when it seems patently obvious to me that the reaction would be completely different if the circumstances were all the same, except the company was based in another country of a predominantly different (non-Arab) race, which is entirely the case here. The UAE is one of our closest allies in the Middle East, this company has holdings in ports all over the world and it's been examined by the United States government. Sorry if I don't really see what to be outraged about in terms of this specific incident.
As for the UAE terrorism connection, do you have any valid sources for that? After all, if you want to push the level low enough, you have to remember that the US itself directly supported the Taliban and the bin Ladens at one point, and that some of the terrorists we are currently fighting have either lived in the US or even came to our schools here.
I don't necessarily disagree with you here, that we should only be giving these contracts to American companies, but what really makes me scratch my head is that I've never heard anyone bring this up before we gave it to a multinational company based in an Arab country, less likely anyone be so outraged when we handed the same contracts to a Chinese or British company.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 45 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
#5334261 - 02/24/06 07:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Zappisisgod stated:
Link please, and try not to confuse the acts of individuals with the acts of a government
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/23/ervin/
You're definition of a nation is assinine, as well
Since your the better expert, you explain how a nation is defined.
Ravus stated:
Despite the fact that the company itself is multinational and has already been examined by the federal government before it gave them this deal,
Really? Why the change in plans?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0602240121feb24,1,4219520.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true
You see, Americans unlike most other countries, can change the outcome of occurrences within the government (sometimes)
Anyone want to put their money were their mouth is, and place a gentleman's bet, on if this deal will go through?
Ravus stated: I only use the so-called "race card" when it seems patently obvious to me that the reaction would be completely different if the circumstances were all the same, except the company was based in another country of a predominantly different (non-Arab) race, which is entirely the case here.
Conjecture.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5335132 - 02/24/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Zappisisgod stated:
Link please, and try not to confuse the acts of individuals with the acts of a government
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/23/ervin/
Your link does not support your contention that UAE is a state sponsor of terrorism
Quote:
You're definition of a nation is assinine, as well
Since your the better expert, you explain how a nation is defined.
I would define it as the area and the individuals that a given government can hold power over. Language and culture have nothing to do with it.
--------------------
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.


Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5335200 - 02/24/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Anyone want to put their money were their mouth is, and place a gentleman's bet, on if this deal will go through?
Sorry Sirtripalot, its already a done deal.
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
#5335543 - 02/24/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: what really makes me scratch my head is that I've never heard anyone bring this up before we gave it to a multinational company based in an Arab country, less likely anyone be so outraged when we handed the same contracts to a Chinese or British company.
Call me one of the xenophobic alarmists if you want...but Muslim and Arab people are far more likely to hate the U.S. and therefore they are more likely to engage in activities that are detrimental to us.
I see nothing wrong with being leery about this port deal. We are talking about giving control of a number of our major ports to a company that is based in an area where people hate us.
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5335558 - 02/24/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm willing to guess that Bush is going to pocket a small fortune for this. Even still, I support it. Money or not, our president is hopefully smart enough to understand that if any attack happens as a result of this deal, he'll eat it in every history book written.
-------------------- what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 45 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Gijith]
#5335826 - 02/24/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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zappisgod stated: I would define it as the area and the individuals that a given government can hold power over. Language and culture have nothing to do with it
Not to be a dickhead, but you are wrong here. So by your definition, the Philippines is not a nation. Since the government does not have power over the 7,000 islands, the Philippines is not a nation. There are so many rebel factions over there (Ive been there my wife is Filipino) that you couldn't shake a stick at.
For you to say that language and culture have nothing to do with a definition of a nation cant be far from the truth.
Ever study any of the Native American tribes? There individual nations were much more complex than hunter gatherer. Their language and culture DEFINED THEM as a nation. The Sioux were very different from the Apache nation.......There are countless examples of this though out history from primitive to modern
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5337960 - 02/25/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: zappisgod stated: I would define it as the area and the individuals that a given government can hold power over. Language and culture have nothing to do with it
Not to be a dickhead, but you are wrong here. So by your definition, the Philippines is not a nation. Since the government does not have power over the 7,000 islands, the Philippines is not a nation. There are so many rebel factions over there (Ive been there my wife is Filipino) that you couldn't shake a stick at.
How many different cultures and languages are in the Phillipines? http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=PH I thought this kind of thing would come up although I expected it to be Pakistan and the areas not under control there. Note your own use of the word "rebel". Absent a central force, there is nothing for them to "rebel" against. Complete control is not required. As an example, there are large parts of New York City where criminals can act with relative impunity, fearful only of the occasional raid, very much like the "rebels" in the Philippines or the stone age fundies in the backwoods of Pakistan. Do you really think that there is only one American culture? As to language, what of Switzerland? I dare say that most of what people consider nations in the world are not so homogenized as you think.
Quote:
For you to say that language and culture have nothing to do with a definition of a nation cant be far from the truth.
I suspect you mean "further from the truth" since you're arguing. I say the Philippines is a nation. By your definition they're not.
Quote:
Ever study any of the Native American tribes? There individual nations were much more complex than hunter gatherer. Their language and culture DEFINED THEM as a nation. The Sioux were very different from the Apache nation.......There are countless examples of this though out history from primitive to modern
Where are these "nations" today? The fact that you can cite an extinct monoculture as being an example of a nation does not mean that all nations are monocultures any more than it means that all nations are extinct. I also note that you have left out the Iroquois, who were far from homogenous.
--------------------
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Gijith]
#5338696 - 02/25/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gijith said: I'm willing to guess that Bush is going to pocket a small fortune for this. Even still, I support it. Money or not, our president is hopefully smart enough to understand that if any attack happens as a result of this deal, he'll eat it in every history book written.
So you're saying you don't care that there will be a terrorist attack and you will support the port deal anyway, and your justification is that Bush will go down in history as a bad president if this happens (What is he considered now?!)
If you seriously are not scared of terrorism then you shouldn't be supporting Bush at all, the whole republican alibi is that you're trying to prevent terrorism.
I for one would rather safety from my government then safety from terrorism, I don't care about this port deal, we just have to be a little more concerned about other activities in our government.
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5338731 - 02/25/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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To me, this is a non-issue. There is no reason (other than xenophobic paranoia) that our ports should be less safe with the UAE overseeing it than Britain overseeing it.
These politicians are just using this "scandal" as a political vehicle since elections are coming up quick.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
#5338733 - 02/25/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I dunno...I don't want those ragheads running things. 
P.S. Do a search for "Dear Redstorm's liver:" in OTD.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5338742 - 02/25/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Oooooh, thank you!
Sorry I missed it, I was serving my time for the nonsensical ban I received.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 45 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
#5339200 - 02/25/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Zappisgod Stated:
Do you really think that there is only one American culture?
For the most part yes. Our national identity is slipping away though, due to illegal immigration and this bullshit "melting pot or salad bowl theories". All legal preceding take place in English if memory serves me right. Below are some references describing how BORDERS, LANGUAGE, AND CULTURE DEFINE A NATION. If you are saying that the definitions of dictionaries are wrong, along with the vast majority of historians, I WANT TO SEE THOSE REFERENCES.
When I do , I will make sure to call Websters dictionary and tell them that their definition of the word "nation" is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Country, State, and Nation From Matt Rosenberg,
A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State.
States and Independent Countries
Let's start with what defines a State or an independent country. An independent State:
Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK). Has people who live there on an ongoing basis. Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money. Sponsored Links
Nations and Nation-States
Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religion, and historical experience.
When a nation of people have a State or country of their own, it is called a nation-state. Places like France, Egypt, Germany, Japan, and New Zealand are excellent examples of nation-states. There are some States which have two nations, such as Canada and Belgium. Even with its multicultural society, the United States is also referred to as a nation-state because of the shared American "culture."
There are nations without States. For example, the Kurds are stateless people.
na?tion (n?'shən) n.
A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
The government of a sovereign state. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: ?Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity? (Robert Conquest).
A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum


Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5339211 - 02/25/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
Call me one of the xenophobic alarmists if you want...but Muslim and Arab people are far more likely to hate the U.S. and therefore they are more likely to engage in activities that are detrimental to us.
I see nothing wrong with being leery about this port deal. We are talking about giving control of a number of our major ports to a company that is based in an area where people hate us.
Yes but this is a business transaction with a company that loves money more than they hate anything else. I won't call you a xenophobic alarmist, but when you are talking about a company that is this multinational and a deal that is this large there is only one factor motivating the people involved and that is $
I don't see how this is a security issue. It is definetely an issue of globalization, true maybe an American company should own its own ports so we can profit off of ourselves. But the UAE, probably more than any other country in the Arab world, is a top player in the global corporate scene. Many of our businesses are over there and many of their businesses are over here. I wouldn't compare the UAE with Iran, for instance, a country motivated much more strongly by Islamic fundamentalism than foreign investments.
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: gluke bastid]
#5340116 - 02/26/06 03:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The only real change essentially is the name on the checks. We still run security. They sign the dock worker's checks.
Those dock workers are still the same old guys that have been doing the job. In other words, the Arabs write the checks, the Mafia still runs the ports, and the US still runs security.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Mushmonkey]
#5340781 - 02/26/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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No response on the nation debate Zappisisgod?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5340867 - 02/26/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You're correct about the definition of nation and state, but that doesn't change the fact that the UAE taking over for the British company is not a big deal.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 45 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
#5340923 - 02/26/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Redstorm,
I thought I would never see the day, that you would agree with Bush, and I dont.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5340930 - 02/26/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'm a free-trader. It's just the way it has to be. Not only that, but I don't buy into all of this paranoia stuff the media is feeding us. As was said above, nothing is going to change other than who receives profits and who pays the checks. Security is going to be ran by the same people.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5340932 - 02/26/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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You are right, though. It's pretty fucking crazy that I actually agree with him. I do agree with him on some things (like Social Security).
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5340961 - 02/26/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: No response on the nation debate Zappisisgod?
Ok. I left it because I thought we were getting too far off topic.
Give me a couple minutes.
--------------------
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5341103 - 02/26/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Zappisgod Stated:
Do you really think that there is only one American culture?
For the most part yes. Our national identity is slipping away though, due to illegal immigration and this bullshit "melting pot or salad bowl theories". All legal preceding take place in English if memory serves me right.
But not only English. All government notices in NY City and environs must by law be also posted in Spanish. Further, any non English speaker in a criminal proceeding must be allowed a translator, as must anyone applying for government benefits. There is no national language. That idea got shot down a few decades ago. Sigh.
I don't know where you live but the only reasonably homogenous American culture I see is on TV. And I don't live there.
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Below are some references describing how BORDERS, LANGUAGE, AND CULTURE DEFINE A NATION. If you are saying that the definitions of dictionaries are wrong, along with the vast majority of historians, I WANT TO SEE THOSE REFERENCES.
When I do , I will make sure to call Websters dictionary and tell them that their definition of the word "nation" is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Country, State, and Nation From Matt Rosenberg,
A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State.
States and Independent Countries
Let's start with what defines a State or an independent country. An independent State:
Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK). Has people who live there on an ongoing basis. Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money. Sponsored Links
Nations and Nation-States
Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religion, and historical experience.
When a nation of people have a State or country of their own, it is called a nation-state. Places like France, Egypt, Germany, Japan, and New Zealand are excellent examples of nation-states. There are some States which have two nations, such as Canada and Belgium. Even with its multicultural society, the United States is also referred to as a nation-state because of the shared American "culture."
There are nations without States. For example, the Kurds are stateless people.
Well, Mr. Rosenberg makes a nice poli sci textbook definition for discerning between nations, states and nation-states. Which is a fine distinction in the jargon within the milieu of which he speaks. Irrelevant to the larger linguistic group which includes general English speakers who would largely accept the below without bothering to make a distinction in general conversation between "nation" and "state":Quote:
na?tion (n?'shən) n.
A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
The government of a sovereign state. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: ?Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity? (Robert Conquest).
A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans. The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe
If you restrict your definition of a nation to only those groups that hold a common language and culture and also confine yourself to whatever specific Milieu in which Mr. Rosenberg's distinctions hold, then the US is not a nation, it is a state. Hardly anyone, however, makes this distinction in general language usage. Which is exclusively what I was referring to. Not jargon. From the second link (Well actually you didn't give any links but fine) the first usage supports me. Only the add on stuff at the end, which references the jargon of specificity Mr. Rosenberg describes, mentions culture, and that obliquely.
Why did you say the Phillipines was a nation, when it is clearly a state by Mr' Rosenberg's definition? Which definition you injected. You brought the Phillipines up as an example of a nation not wholly controlled. I pointed out that there was something (If the government didn't hold power would there be rebels?) for the rebels to rebel against. Then I pointed out that it isn't a nation at all by your definition seeing as how there is a such a diversity of language and culture there. Then you give me Mr. Rosenberg who tells me that, indeed, the Phillipines ISN'T a nation, it's a state. So why did you use it as an example of a nation?
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
#5341195 - 02/26/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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The way I always thought about it, "nation" is about intangibles: culture, language, identity, etc. while "state" is a legal term to clarify citizenship and territorial boundaries.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,459
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 45 minutes, 48 seconds
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
#5341941 - 02/26/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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That is correct....the UNITED STATES...make up a nation. You are correct in assessing the USA, we are very unique. Each State can have its own law, in accordance with the 10th Amendment.
A nation is much more then the government that controls it. Its language (communication), borders (territory boundaries, the geographical outline), and culture (mores, values,beliefs) all contribute to the characteristics that make up a nation.
Part of the reason I am upset with this deal (and illegal immigration) is the hairline crack in the foundations of America, is slowly turning into falling chunks.......dont get me wrong, I am not an isolationist, however, I believe certain economic and security issues should remain within the USA. These type of deals in my opinion, take away our nation
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: beatnicknick]
#5342525 - 02/26/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
beatnicknick said: So you're saying you don't care that there will be a terrorist attack and you will support the port deal anyway, and your justification is that Bush will go down in history as a bad president if this happens (What is he considered now?!)
If you seriously are not scared of terrorism then you shouldn't be supporting Bush at all, the whole republican alibi is that you're trying to prevent terrorism.
I for one would rather safety from my government then safety from terrorism, I don't care about this port deal, we just have to be a little more concerned about other activities in our government.
A terrorist attack would be bad. Caving in to this sort of reactionary fear would be worse. Whatever his intentions, I think the president has the right idea. And for once, I'm willing to put a little faith in him.
And no, I'm not especially scared of a terrorist attack. In the last 50 years, over 500,000,000 people have lived in this country and fewer than 5,000 have died by a terrorist attack on US soil. There's a much greater chance of me being accidentally poisoned to death. I lived in the greater NY area following the terrorist attacks and got to watch everyone scurry around and buy bumper stickers and cover their windows with duct tape and practically beg their president to take any blood possible from any sinister Mid East country.
This deal feels right. Given the minuscule risk there seems to be, it's worth proceeding so that all the little sheep out there can learn to leave their homes without gas masks tucked in their briefcases.
-------------------- what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
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psilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Gijith]
#5344143 - 02/27/06 03:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago) |
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If the USA was terrorized into cutting itself off from foreign investment, that would represent a huge victory for Al-Qaeda.
Fighting terrorism is not just about dropping bombs overseas, its about resisting the effects of terror.
I am with President Bush on this one, (omg, there, I said it).
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