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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Posts: 1,074
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Gijith]
    #5338696 - 02/25/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
I'm willing to guess that Bush is going to pocket a small fortune for this. Even still, I support it. Money or not, our president is hopefully smart enough to understand that if any attack happens as a result of this deal, he'll eat it in every history book written.




So you're saying you don't care that there will be a terrorist attack and you will support the port deal anyway, and your justification is that Bush will go down in history as a bad president if this happens (What is he considered now?!)

If you seriously are not scared of terrorism then you shouldn't be supporting Bush at all, the whole republican alibi is that you're trying to prevent terrorism.

I for one would rather safety from my government then safety from terrorism, I don't care about this port deal, we just have to be a little more concerned about other activities in our government.


--------------------
I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5338731 - 02/25/06 06:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

To me, this is a non-issue. There is no reason (other than xenophobic paranoia) that our ports should be less safe with the UAE overseeing it than Britain overseeing it.

These politicians are just using this "scandal" as a political vehicle since elections are coming up quick.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
    #5338733 - 02/25/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I dunno...I don't want those ragheads running things.  :smirk:

P.S.  Do a search for "Dear Redstorm's liver:" in OTD.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5338742 - 02/25/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oooooh, thank you!

Sorry I missed it, I was serving my time for the nonsensical ban I received.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
    #5339200 - 02/25/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Zappisgod Stated:

Do you really think that there is only one American culture?

For the most part yes. Our national identity is slipping away though, due to illegal immigration and this bullshit "melting pot or salad bowl theories". All legal preceding take place in English if memory serves me right. Below are some references describing how BORDERS, LANGUAGE, AND CULTURE DEFINE A NATION. If you are saying that the definitions of dictionaries are wrong, along with the vast majority of historians, I WANT TO SEE THOSE REFERENCES.

When I do , I will make sure to call Websters dictionary and tell them that their definition of the word "nation" is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Country, State, and Nation
From Matt Rosenberg,

A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State.

States and Independent Countries

Let's start with what defines a State or an independent country. An independent State:


Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).
Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money. Sponsored Links

Nations and Nation-States

Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religion, and historical experience.

When a nation of people have a State or country of their own, it is called a nation-state. Places like France, Egypt, Germany, Japan, and New Zealand are excellent examples of nation-states. There are some States which have two nations, such as Canada and Belgium. Even with its multicultural society, the United States is also referred to as a nation-state because of the shared American "culture."

There are nations without States. For example, the Kurds are stateless people.

na?tion (n?'shən)
n.

A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.

The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.

The government of a sovereign state.
A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: ?Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity? (Robert Conquest).

A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5339211 - 02/25/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

Call me one of the xenophobic alarmists if you want...but Muslim and Arab people are far more likely to hate the U.S. and therefore they are more likely to engage in activities that are detrimental to us.

I see nothing wrong with being leery about this port deal. We are talking about giving control of a number of our major ports to a company that is based in an area where people hate us.




Yes but this is a business transaction with a company that loves money more than they hate anything else. I won't call you a xenophobic alarmist, but when you are talking about a company that is this multinational and a deal that is this large there is only one factor motivating the people involved and that is $

I don't see how this is a security issue. It is definetely an issue of globalization, true maybe an American company should own its own ports so we can profit off of ourselves. But the UAE, probably more than any other country in the Arab world, is a top player in the global corporate scene. Many of our businesses are over there and many of their businesses are over here. I wouldn't compare the UAE with Iran, for instance, a country motivated much more strongly by Islamic fundamentalism than foreign investments.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineMushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5340116 - 02/26/06 03:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The only real change essentially is the name on the checks.
We still run security.
They sign the dock worker's checks.

Those dock workers are still the same old guys that have been doing the job. In other words, the Arabs write the checks, the Mafia still runs the ports, and the US still runs security.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
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Last seen: 58 minutes, 11 seconds
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #5340781 - 02/26/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No response on the nation debate Zappisisgod?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340867 - 02/26/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You're correct about the definition of nation and state, but that doesn't change the fact that the UAE taking over for the British company is not a big deal.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
    #5340923 - 02/26/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Redstorm,

I thought I would never see the day, that you would agree with Bush, and I dont.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340930 - 02/26/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm a free-trader. It's just the way it has to be. Not only that, but I don't buy into all of this paranoia stuff the media is feeding us. As was said above, nothing is going to change other than who receives profits and who pays the checks. Security is going to be ran by the same people.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340932 - 02/26/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You are right, though. It's pretty fucking crazy that I actually agree with him. I do agree with him on some things (like Social Security).


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5340961 - 02/26/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
No response on the nation debate Zappisisgod?




Ok. I left it because I thought we were getting too far off topic.

Give me a couple minutes.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5341103 - 02/26/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Zappisgod Stated:

Do you really think that there is only one American culture?

For the most part yes. Our national identity is slipping away though, due to illegal immigration and this bullshit "melting pot or salad bowl theories". All legal preceding take place in English if memory serves me right.




But not only English. All government notices in NY City and environs must by law be also posted in Spanish. Further, any non English speaker in a criminal proceeding must be allowed a translator, as must anyone applying for government benefits. There is no national language. That idea got shot down a few decades ago. Sigh.

I don't know where you live but the only reasonably homogenous American culture I see is on TV. And I don't live there.

Quote:




Below are some references describing how BORDERS, LANGUAGE, AND CULTURE DEFINE A NATION. If you are saying that the definitions of dictionaries are wrong, along with the vast majority of historians, I WANT TO SEE THOSE REFERENCES.

When I do , I will make sure to call Websters dictionary and tell them that their definition of the word "nation" is wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Country, State, and Nation
From Matt Rosenberg,

A nation, however, is a tightly-knit group of people which share a common culture. A nation-state is a nation which has the same borders as a State.

States and Independent Countries

Let's start with what defines a State or an independent country. An independent State:


Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).
Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money. Sponsored Links

Nations and Nation-States

Nations are culturally homogeneous groups of people, larger than a single tribe or community, which share a common language, institutions, religion, and historical experience.

When a nation of people have a State or country of their own, it is called a nation-state. Places like France, Egypt, Germany, Japan, and New Zealand are excellent examples of nation-states. There are some States which have two nations, such as Canada and Belgium. Even with its multicultural society, the United States is also referred to as a nation-state because of the shared American "culture."

There are nations without States. For example, the Kurds are stateless people.




Well, Mr. Rosenberg makes a nice poli sci textbook definition for discerning between nations, states and nation-states. Which is a fine distinction in the jargon within the milieu of which he speaks. Irrelevant to the larger linguistic group which includes general English speakers who would largely accept the below without bothering to make a distinction in general conversation between "nation" and "state":
Quote:



na?tion (n?'shən)
n.

A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.

The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.

The government of a sovereign state.

A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: ?Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity? (Robert Conquest).

A federation or tribe, especially one composed of Native Americans.
The territory occupied by such a federation or tribe




If you restrict your definition of a nation to only those groups that hold a common language and culture and also confine yourself to whatever specific Milieu in which Mr. Rosenberg's distinctions hold, then the US is not a nation, it is a state. Hardly anyone, however, makes this distinction in general language usage. Which is exclusively what I was referring to. Not jargon. From the second link (Well actually you didn't give any links but fine) the first usage supports me. Only the add on stuff at the end, which references the jargon of specificity Mr. Rosenberg describes, mentions culture, and that obliquely.

Why did you say the Phillipines was a nation, when it is clearly a state by Mr' Rosenberg's definition? Which definition you injected. You brought the Phillipines up as an example of a nation not wholly controlled. I pointed out that there was something (If the government didn't hold power would there be rebels?) for the rebels to rebel against. Then I pointed out that it isn't a nation at all by your definition seeing as how there is a such a diversity of language and culture there. Then you give me Mr. Rosenberg who tells me that, indeed, the Phillipines ISN'T a nation, it's a state. So why did you use it as an example of a nation?


--------------------


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5341195 - 02/26/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

The way I always thought about it, "nation" is about intangibles: culture, language, identity, etc. while "state" is a legal term to clarify citizenship and territorial boundaries.

:shrug:


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Redstorm]
    #5341941 - 02/26/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

That is correct....the UNITED STATES...make up a nation.
You are correct in assessing the USA, we are very unique.
Each State can have its own law, in accordance with the 10th Amendment.

A nation is much more then the government that controls it. Its language (communication), borders (territory boundaries, the geographical outline), and culture (mores, values,beliefs) all contribute to the characteristics that make up a nation.

Part of the reason I am upset with this deal (and illegal immigration) is the hairline crack in the foundations of America, is slowly turning into falling chunks.......dont get me wrong, I am not an isolationist, however, I believe certain economic and security issues should remain within the USA. These type of deals in my opinion, take away our nation


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5342525 - 02/26/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

beatnicknick said:
So you're saying you don't care that there will be a terrorist attack and you will support the port deal anyway, and your justification is that Bush will go down in history as a bad president if this happens (What is he considered now?!)

If you seriously are not scared of terrorism then you shouldn't be supporting Bush at all, the whole republican alibi is that you're trying to prevent terrorism.

I for one would rather safety from my government then safety from terrorism, I don't care about this port deal, we just have to be a little more concerned about other activities in our government.




A terrorist attack would be bad. Caving in to this sort of reactionary fear would be worse. Whatever his intentions, I think the president has the right idea. And for once, I'm willing to put a little faith in him.

And no, I'm not especially scared of a terrorist attack. In the last 50 years, over 500,000,000 people have lived in this country and fewer than 5,000 have died by a terrorist attack on US soil. There's a much greater chance of me being accidentally poisoned to death. I lived in the greater NY area following the terrorist attacks and got to watch everyone scurry around and buy bumper stickers and cover their windows with duct tape and practically beg their president to take any blood possible from any sinister Mid East country.

This deal feels right. Given the minuscule risk there seems to be, it's worth proceeding so that all the little sheep out there can learn to leave their homes without gas masks tucked in their briefcases.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Gijith]
    #5344143 - 02/27/06 03:43 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

If the USA was terrorized into cutting itself off from foreign investment, that would represent a huge victory for Al-Qaeda.

Fighting terrorism is not just about dropping bombs overseas, its about resisting the effects of terror.

I am with President Bush on this one, (omg, there, I said it).


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