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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5332067 - 02/23/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Except you didn't have anything to say until it was an Arab country. Is China OK? Last I looked, Great Britain was a foreign country too and they're the country of origin of the previous company, which was bought by DPW.

I'm going to say this as clearly as I can. This company is the third largest port management company in the world. Nowhere else has there ever been a sniff of impropriety regarding any security issues. That is largely because THEY ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR SECURITY. It is not what they contracted for. Paradigm's right. This is alarmist bullshit.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5332210 - 02/23/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Agreed.

It appears to be a sort of herd mentality among politicians. Most Americans don't understand the situation, hence the main reason there's outrage, and politicians are so slimy that they just act on anything to get more popularity.

I don't blame the Democrats for exploiting this issue, though. We all know that if it was a similar situation with a Democratic president and a Republican minority, the Republicans would act in exactly the same way. What surprises me is how many Republican politicians are going along with it too. Perhaps they're trying to distance themselves from Bush's rather low approval ratings in order to prepare for the coming elections?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
    #5332378 - 02/23/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I heard Russert on Imus the other day and, I'm pretty sure I have this right, he was saying that because this was an election year the Democrats were snatching the issue because they have been seen as cunts on security, the Republicans are snatching the issue because they don't want to be seen as Bush toadies, and Bush is not making an issue because he actually has to govern and this is a good safe way to throw a bone to someone who has been helping us specifically and to the Arab world in general that we won't fuck you if you play nice.

A really good factual piece can be found here:
http://www.barking-moonbat.com/

You'll have to scroll down a little to the port article but it is excellent with many links.


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OfflineSkeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5332402 - 02/23/06 05:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Regardless of the facts of the case, those opposed to this have the political high ground afforded by emotionally colored perception. Perception is what matters in politics, reality is unimportant unless it coincides with what you want others to perceive. Bush has played the fear of terrorism card as often and as aggressively as he could. His opponents as well as his supporters have seen how well it works for him, they would be foolish (from a Machiavellian perspective) to not use this to their advantage.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5332455 - 02/23/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't disagree. I will point out that positions taken to win elections are not always positions that are wise, "pandering to the proletariat" and "rabble rousing" and all that. Bush has no more elections to win, just a country to run.

"political high ground afforded by emotionally colored perception." I don't know that I'd ever use "emotionally colored" and "high ground" in the same sentence but the modifier "political" puts all rationality off the screen so, yeah, I'll go with it.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5332466 - 02/23/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'll tell you what, I find this "fear of terrorism card" thing quite tiresome. I live far too close and had far too many friends involved in the smoke and burning to sit and listen to that very much. I'm not scared. Neither am I willing to sit back and do nothing. It's not fear that motivates me. It's fury.


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OfflineSkeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5332471 - 02/23/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When I speak of high ground in this instance, I mean from a perspective of a contest, it has nothing to do with right or wrong. Now that I think about it, the wording does seem odd seeing as people often talk of 'the moral high ground.'


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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OfflineSkeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Rome, west side
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5332508 - 02/23/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I'll tell you what, I find this "fear of terrorism card" thing quite tiresome.



Me too, but Bush & company keep playing it, to the detriment of the Constitution and our national solvency.

Quote:

Neither am I willing to sit back and do nothing.



Action untempered by wisdom can often be counter productive. Sometimes (not saying that this is the case), inaction is the best course to follow.

Quote:

It's not fear that motivates me. It's fury.



Fear or fury should not be the basis of national policy decisions.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5332534 - 02/23/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fear or fury should not be the basis of national policy decisions.




It always has been.

Why did the US have a revolution against England? Because of both fear of the power of the king and fury at taxation without representation.

Why did we enter the Vietnam War? Fear of the spread of communism.

If you look at history, fear and fury are two of the main driving forces of national policy. Sometimes the results have been positive, other times, not quite so.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5332559 - 02/23/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Fear or fury should not be the basis of national policy decisions."

I'm not president and I don't make national policy decisions. I can be as angry as I want. I support Bush against the tide of nitwits because he is not kissing the asses of as many shitbags as most of the previous appeasers have. He somewhat gets it. He is a more responsible adult than I am. Believe me when I tell you that we are all glad I'm not holding the big trigger. But then again, I always knew that. I'm still mighty fucking pissed, though, and find the "fear" card meme insulting and weak. Acting to prevent attacks is not a sign of fear. It is a sign of sanity. Maybe we should say Bush has been playing the "sanity" card. Now that's something no Dem could ever co-opt.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 34 minutes
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
    #5332571 - 02/23/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When have we caught China involved in terrorism?


When have we caught Great Britain in terrorism?

The answer: we have not. The United Arab Emirates on the other hand, HAS.

Dont fucking throw the race card simply because I am against the Arabs getting this deal.

A nation is defined by three things: its borders, its language, and its culture.

ALL of which, I see getting dribbled away in this "Globalism" bullshit.........I could give a rats ass about the politics of this issue.

I come from the school of thought that Americans should be involved at VITAL AREAS of not only our security, but also our economy.....so we still handle the security of the ports.....why not both????


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5332652 - 02/23/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
When have we caught China involved in terrorism?




Good joke
Quote:



When have we caught Great Britain in terrorism?




Ask the Irish
Quote:


The answer: we have not. The United Arab Emirates on the other hand, HAS.




Link please, and try not to confuse the acts of individuals with the acts of a government
Quote:



Dont fucking throw the race card simply because I am against the Arabs getting this deal.

A nation is defined by three things: its borders, its language, and its culture.




Do you think that as an American you should be judged as a compatriot of Ted Bundy? John Wayne Gacy? Local skinhead organization? You're definition of a nation is assinine, as well.
Quote:



ALL of which, I see getting dribbled away in this "Globalism" bullshit.........I could give a rats ass about the politics of this issue.

I come from the school of thought that Americans should be involved at VITAL AREAS of not only our security, but also our economy.....so we still handle the security of the ports.....why not both????




You ask "Why not?" Because they didn't bid enough. Are you an isolationaist? Protectionist? This whole thing got blown up because some unions felt threatened. Americans got where they are and will only stay there when they can COMPETE successfully. Coddling them will not achieve that.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5332675 - 02/23/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Dont fucking throw the race card simply because I am against the Arabs getting this deal.




:smirk:

That's a pretty ironic sentence, my friend. But you are saying that we should not give this deal to a company simply because they are based in an Arab country, true? Despite the fact that the company itself is multinational and has already been examined by the federal government before it gave them this deal, the simple fact that it's based in an Arab country, the UAE, is what is determining your fury over this decision, correct? I only use the so-called "race card" when it seems patently obvious to me that the reaction would be completely different if the circumstances were all the same, except the company was based in another country of a predominantly different (non-Arab) race, which is entirely the case here. The UAE is one of our closest allies in the Middle East, this company has holdings in ports all over the world and it's been examined by the United States government. Sorry if I don't really see what to be outraged about in terms of this specific incident.

As for the UAE terrorism connection, do you have any valid sources for that? After all, if you want to push the level low enough, you have to remember that the US itself directly supported the Taliban and the bin Ladens at one point, and that some of the terrorists we are currently fighting have either lived in the US or even came to our schools here.

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, that we should only be giving these contracts to American companies, but what really makes me scratch my head is that I've never heard anyone bring this up before we gave it to a multinational company based in an Arab country, less likely anyone be so outraged when we handed the same contracts to a Chinese or British company.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
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Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
    #5334261 - 02/24/06 07:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Zappisisgod stated:

Link please, and try not to confuse the acts of individuals with the acts of a government

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/23/ervin/

You're definition of a nation is assinine, as well

Since your the better expert, you explain how a nation is defined.


Ravus stated:

Despite the fact that the company itself is multinational and has already been examined by the federal government before it gave them this deal,

Really?
Why the change in plans?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0602240121feb24,1,4219520.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

You see, Americans unlike most other countries, can change the outcome of occurrences within the government (sometimes)

Anyone want to put their money were their mouth is, and place a gentleman's bet, on if this deal will go through?

Ravus stated:
I only use the so-called "race card" when it seems patently obvious to me that the reaction would be completely different if the circumstances were all the same, except the company was based in another country of a predominantly different (non-Arab) race, which is entirely the case here.

Conjecture.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5335132 - 02/24/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Zappisisgod stated:

Link please, and try not to confuse the acts of individuals with the acts of a government

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/23/ervin/




Your link does not support your contention that UAE is a state sponsor of terrorism
Quote:


You're definition of a nation is assinine, as well

Since your the better expert, you explain how a nation is defined.





I would define it as the area and the individuals that a given government can hold power over. Language and culture have nothing to do with it.


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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5335200 - 02/24/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Anyone want to put their money were their mouth is, and place a gentleman's bet, on if this deal will go through?





Sorry Sirtripalot, its already a done deal.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Ravus]
    #5335543 - 02/24/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
what really makes me scratch my head is that I've never heard anyone bring this up before we gave it to a multinational company based in an Arab country, less likely anyone be so outraged when we handed the same contracts to a Chinese or British company.




Call me one of the xenophobic alarmists if you want...but Muslim and Arab people are far more likely to hate the U.S. and therefore they are more likely to engage in activities that are detrimental to us.

I see nothing wrong with being leery about this port deal. We are talking about giving control of a number of our major ports to a company that is based in an area where people hate us.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5335558 - 02/24/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm willing to guess that Bush is going to pocket a small fortune for this. Even still, I support it. Money or not, our president is hopefully smart enough to understand that if any attack happens as a result of this deal, he'll eat it in every history book written.


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: Gijith]
    #5335826 - 02/24/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

zappisgod stated:
I would define it as the area and the individuals that a given government can hold power over. Language and culture have nothing to do with it


Not to be a dickhead, but you are wrong here. So by your definition, the Philippines is not a nation. Since the government does not have power over the 7,000 islands, the Philippines is not a nation. There are so many rebel factions over there (Ive been there my wife is Filipino) that you couldn't shake a stick at.

For you to say that language and culture have nothing to do with a definition of a nation cant be far from the truth.

Ever study any of the Native American tribes? There individual nations were much more complex than hunter gatherer. Their language and culture DEFINED THEM as a nation. The Sioux were very different from the Apache nation.......There are countless examples of this though out history from primitive to modern


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: WHAT THE FUCK? **Updated [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5337960 - 02/25/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
zappisgod stated:
I would define it as the area and the individuals that a given government can hold power over. Language and culture have nothing to do with it


Not to be a dickhead, but you are wrong here. So by your definition, the Philippines is not a nation. Since the government does not have power over the 7,000 islands, the Philippines is not a nation. There are so many rebel factions over there (Ive been there my wife is Filipino) that you couldn't shake a stick at.




How many different cultures and languages are in the Phillipines?
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=PH
I thought this kind of thing would come up although I expected it to be Pakistan and the areas not under control there. Note your own use of the word "rebel". Absent a central force, there is nothing for them to "rebel" against. Complete control is not required. As an example, there are large parts of New York City where criminals can act with relative impunity, fearful only of the occasional raid, very much like the "rebels" in the Philippines or the stone age fundies in the backwoods of Pakistan. Do you really think that there is only one American culture? As to language, what of Switzerland? I dare say that most of what people consider nations in the world are not so homogenized as you think.
Quote:



For you to say that language and culture have nothing to do with a definition of a nation cant be far from the truth.




I suspect you mean "further from the truth" since you're arguing.
I say the Philippines is a nation. By your definition they're not.
Quote:


Ever study any of the Native American tribes? There individual nations were much more complex than hunter gatherer. Their language and culture DEFINED THEM as a nation. The Sioux were very different from the Apache nation.......There are countless examples of this though out history from primitive to modern




Where are these "nations" today? The fact that you can cite an extinct monoculture as being an example of a nation does not mean that all nations are monocultures any more than it means that all nations are extinct. I also note that you have left out the Iroquois, who were far from homogenous.


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