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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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Jesus Christ is the False Messiah
#5299922 - 02/14/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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What kind of feeling did that subject give you? I'm not proclaiming it to be true, but I want to get some views on the subject. Does Judaism have a case? Is Christianity really a misleading religion? I'm slowly coming to a conclusion, though still far from any, that maybe Christ wasn't really the Son of God and that Jews have it 'right'. Both religions believe in the same God, just the difference is Christ.
I think it is a very interesting predicament; Christianity and Judaism.
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5300046 - 02/14/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I mean, why were Jewish people the target of Hitler, a supposed anti-'Christ'.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5300111 - 02/14/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The Jews missed the boat. They were expecting a political messiah, and when the metaphysical messiah showed up, they did not recognize him.
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dblaney
Human Being

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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5300136 - 02/14/06 05:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I do believe Jesus was an Avatar. Any Jew who considers his words to be silly or ignores them simply because he doesn't fit in with their belief system really needs to think about his beliefs. On the other hand, Christians who believe that Jesus was the one and only Avatar and worship his fucking personality also REALLY need to reconsider their beliefs.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5300186 - 02/14/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I recommend this book highly! The title is deceptive but they footnote and reference extensively. It blew me away!
The original Christianity was a doctrinally non-unified collection of beliefs which began to give rise to numerous 'gospels.' Many of these recently discovered gospels embody Wisdom that any experienced entheogen-taker would immediately recognize. The spirituality embodied in BE HERE NOW partakes of this perennial Wisdom, which is to say, Gnostic Wisdom. It was only by the tyranny of the Roman Catholic Church under Emperor Constantine (himself not a Christian but a Mithras-worshiper) that the canonical Bible was comprised of the existing books and the others burned! The Bible that came to be was designed for the most humble, literalist mind, and thus Literalist (Fundamentalist) Christianity became the 'catholic' or 'orthodox' doctrine. Moreover, the very doctrine itself became idolatized such that anyone believing in alternate interpretations were considered heretics. Heretics were excommunicated from the Church (which meant according to the orthodox doctrine that one was automatically damned to Hell by God). If this spiritual punishment weren't sufficient, the Church began to torture people to death for heresy, and if THIS wasn't enough, persecutions, witch hunts (for Pagans), crusades (against Jews and later Muslims) and general paranoia came to characterize the religion that was supposed to be centered on gentle Jesus.
Fortunately, there has been a resurgence of the original Christianity which was 'Experiential' in nature and Gnostic in approach (as opposed to Literalist). Except perhaps for hired stooges like Eusebius and Iraeneus, such early Church Fathers as Origen and Clement of Alexandria supported the Gnostic ideals. Clement, incidentally, discovered that the author Mark had written not one but three Gospels! A letter of Clement's was discovered by a theologian in the 20th century which attested to this. It was photographed and then the original disappeared (like all the other Gnostic documents which threatened the power structure and control by church doctrine and its guardians). Each Gospel addressed the different levels of Christian sophistication: Psychic, Pneumatic and Gnostic (there is no help for the Hylics [materialists]).
THE WORLD HAS BEEN LABORING UNDER LIES FOR CENTURIES! THERE ARE GOOD REASONS WHY CHRISTIANITY HASN"T BEEN WORKING AS IT SHOULD!
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/15/06 05:50 AM)
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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i dunno.
The Christian movement in America is "anti-Christ" in nature and I think the way American-Christians (brainwashed war mongering fundies that want to bring us into the dark ages, that don't LOVE anything at all and are controlling the government) are is definitely anti-Christ and false messiah potential.
I dunno about Jesus himself.
I think the whole conversion through hell fire preaching is bullshit too.
But really I think religions are opiates, for when you die you can just believe in your dogma and it makes things so much easier for you, so as long as you use your religion properly its fine no matter what it is and it might help you ascend.
I myself like Buddhism because it helps you ascend right now and sort of seems to be a "how-to manual" whereas a lot of other religions kind of just rely strictly on faith and stress that you aren't particularly important.
But we all have Buddha/Christ/etc nature and can all be like Christ preportedly was according to the Buddhists, and that is what you strive to. It is because our egos are hollow and on the inside we are all the same that we can tune into Christ-consciousness, stream consciousness, etc, and become boddhisattvas....... human bodies are just vessels if you wipe your karma clean....
so I dunno. I believe in the possibility of Jesus being real but I'm unsure about it.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (02/14/06 06:52 PM)
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lysergicide
Aurora Borealis


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: leery11]
#5300512 - 02/14/06 07:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I think Jesus was an avatar. he's just as important as Siddhartha Gautama or Mahatma Gandhi or Lao Tzu. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, but must understand his being brought millions of people salvation and happiness. And that, my friends, is a wonderful thing.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: lysergicide]
#5300730 - 02/14/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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How can you ever "understand" anything like that? It requires a huge leap of blind faith.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I recommend this book highly! The title is deceptive but they footnote and reference extensively. It blew me away!
I was wondering: Do you agree with their assertion that the historical Jesus did not actually exist? I kind of had trouble with that.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5300839 - 02/14/06 09:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Anyway, back on topic: It is of no concern to me whether or not Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, because I am not Jewish. What I do know is that I had a direct experience of Christ consciousness. I know that Christ is very real for me, and I do believe that Jesus was the Christ(anointed one).
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NerdleWombanger
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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5301355 - 02/14/06 11:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Jews feel that Jesus didn't fulfill all the validating prophecies, Christians disagree.
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


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I guess I should have stuck to my belief of every religion being about the same God.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Quote:
NerdleWombanger said: Jews feel that Jesus didn't fulfill all the validating prophecies, Christians disagree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
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NerdleWombanger
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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Silversoul]
#5301406 - 02/14/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sir, please get that red bird outta here. Just because some Jews feel Jesus fulfilled the prophecies doesn't mean mainstream Judaism does.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Your point being...
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NerdleWombanger
Stranger

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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Silversoul]
#5301437 - 02/14/06 11:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The point is: nobody cares bout some stinkin Messyantic Jews.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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And why should I care about mainstream Jews?
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NerdleWombanger
Stranger

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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Silversoul]
#5301452 - 02/14/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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To avoid appearing like a Nazi sympathizer.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5301460 - 02/14/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Jesus was an alien, like me.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Quote:
NerdleWombanger said: To avoid appearing like a Nazi sympathizer.
The Nazis didn't care whether Jews were mainstream or not. They saw Jews as a race, not a religion.
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NerdleWombanger
Stranger

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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Silversoul]
#5301478 - 02/14/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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That is besides the point.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Besides what point?
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NerdleWombanger
Stranger

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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Silversoul]
#5301493 - 02/14/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Why are you a Nazi sympathizer?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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I dunno. Why do you hate America?
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NerdleWombanger
Stranger

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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Silversoul]
#5301511 - 02/14/06 11:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Because women can vote.
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gregorio
Too Damn Old


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5302146 - 02/15/06 04:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
WScottsdale said: Does Judaism have a case? Is Christianity really a misleading religion? I'm slowly coming to a conclusion, though still far from any, that maybe Christ wasn't really the Son of God and that Jews have it 'right'. Both religions believe in the same God, just the difference is Christ.
I have been having the same doubts or questions for a good part of the last year.
A year ago I read and studied the Bible for the first time from front to back. I have read the NT before but until then I have never spent that much time on the OT.
Too make a long story short; I came away with a new found love and respect for Judaism. There is just something about it that seems so real to me. Something that I have never gotten from Christianity. I have been a Catholic all my life but I have been giving serious thought about converting to Judaism.
Here is what has perplexed me the most. I read the entire Bible last winter with an open heart and mind, and after reading it I came away for the first time in my adult life actually doubting whether Jesus is the true Messiah. How does this happen? I mean you read the Bible and afterwards your faith in Jesus decreases. I don't know.Something just didn't click with me anymore when I read the NT.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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I care - I am one. Your statement is false, your premise is therefore based on ignorance and your attending emotion is hateful. I'm not usually so brief in commenting, but there is nothing of your statement worth considering beyond simple correction.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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> Why are you a Nazi sympathizer?
Calm down, please. This forum is for sharing ideas; not for debate, name calling, or flaming. Consider this an official warning.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: leery11]
#5302215 - 02/15/06 05:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm uncertain about the 'historical Jesus' but IT DOESN'T MATTER! Paul preached a 'Resurrected Christ' and that alone. The resusitated body, tomb narratives came later and are ridiculous to be taken literally. The Resurrected Christ is the 'Pleroma' of the Gnostics. Depicted as a glorified body, yet not having spatial boundaries at all!
You do not grok Gnostic Christianity by your comments. It is a 'realized eschatology' just like Buddhism. It is about the Present, not a historical fulfillment in the future. Historical events belong to Literalist Christianity, which Gnostics reject. Check out the above book - fabulous!!!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I'm uncertain about the 'historical Jesus' but IT DOESN'T MATTER! Paul preached a 'Resurrected Christ' and that alone. The resusitated body, tomb narratives came later and are ridiculous to be taken literally. The Resurrected Christ is the 'Pleroma' of the Gnostics. Depicted as a glorified body, yet not having spatial boundaries at all!
You do not grok Gnostic Christianity by your comments. It is a 'realized eschatology' just like Buddhism. It is about the Present, not a historical fulfillment in the future. Historical events belong to Literalist Christianity, which Gnostics reject. Check out the above book - fabulous!!!
This may seem absurd, but look at Criss Angel. Don't laugh. 
The guy does all of these superhuman acts infront of tons of people. Now I do know that magic is slight of hand, but for some reason this guy just astounds me. He pushed a damn full grown palm tree out of its place (think of pushing a tree, how hard it would be), then predicted lottery numbers before the day and got it right. It is all televised, yes, but HOW the fuck.
Maybe you could apply the same kind of thinking to Jesus. Perhaps Christianty is Satan's ultimate deception.
Look at America. Christian President hated by all (oh, and all it is ). Religion is the cause of soo much diversification, which really, is the source of all the indifference and conflict. Religion has always been, but Christianity is so hardcore so it acts as a catalyst.
Bare in mind, I am merely trying to see all sides of a story. I do believe that some people have been 'saved' so that kind of throws in a monkey wrench. :\
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NerdleWombanger
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I care - I am one. Your statement is false, your premise is therefore based on ignorance and your attending emotion is hateful. I'm not usually so brief in commenting, but there is nothing of your statement worth considering beyond simple correction.
Well shit, nobody told me this was the humor-free zone. I guess I should have learned my lesson from the recent anti-cartoon riots? My intention was never to offend any austere Jews. (Are you really Jewish? A Messyantic Jew? If so, where's this friggin temple?)
Quote:
Seuss said: Calm down, please.
If I calmed down any more, I would enter into an extended period of torpor.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5303720 - 02/15/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Authentic Christianity all but vanished shortly after Jesus' death. The version that remained was a Christian-colored Roman propaganda machine that Emperor Constantine chose over Mithraism to pull the empire together. The fascist Romans burned most of the available books and selected those writings which could be used to control, tax, tithe and frighten the multitudes. Even the Protestant Reformation did little to correct authentic Christianity. Indulgences may have been rejected along with the doctrine of Purgatory, but they burned millions of people at the stake and Martin Luther was a virulent German anti-Semite who the Nazis could draw upon centuries later. I'd have to agree with you that these two forms of organized religion have been the greatest source of atocity and demonic activity and perhaps they have been the greatest deception of the devil as you say.
Baby Bush is a Literalist Christian like the Fundamentalist multitudes who voted for him. How many people did he execute as governor of Texas and how many of our soldiers are dead or maimed for the bait-n'-switch lies he sent them to war for? If anyone wants to believe that President Skull & Bones is a Christian, in Reality, then they have only a superficial understanding of what it means to be a Real Christian. In fact, it seems that very few people can discern a true Christian from the common label based on church membership, profession of faith and a literal understanding of mythological themes. If Jesus were to return in the flesh, trailing clouds of glory, NORAD and Bush would have F-111 jets fire on his robed long-haired body with air-to-air missiles before He had a chance to say "Verily..."!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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blaze2
The Witness


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Jesus was a Jew, everyone seems to be forgetting that. Jesus never said anyone should make him into a God of worship. In fact he told people when they bowed to him to stop and worship God as he did. People try to draw boundries and define religions and beliefs too much.
Some jews that were bitter and power hungry and too comfortable in their ways did not see the messiah when he came. And later when the end didnt come as he said, they resumed what had been going on before christ. Peoples memories are short, and life goes on. Those who did see Christ didnt follow his words, at least those that formed the churches and power structure. Power corrupts. History101.
Markos is right there is a whole seperate book of non-cannocial(sp?) scripture, and at the same time the all the english translations are chock full of mistakes. Dont try to reason out God, it is not possible, instead just try to trust your feelings. Mine havent let me down yet. WWJD and all that shit its just saying listen to your conscious. That was really jesus' message. Peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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blaze2
The Witness


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: blaze2]
#5303749 - 02/15/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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right on Markos.
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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Deviate
newbie
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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Silversoul]
#5303764 - 02/15/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: Anyway, back on topic: It is of no concern to me whether or not Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, because I am not Jewish. What I do know is that I had a direct experience of Christ consciousness. I know that Christ is very real for me, and I do believe that Jesus was the Christ(anointed one).
same
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist



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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: Deviate]
#5330640 - 02/23/06 05:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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http://www.jamesarthur.net/
Read em and... well cheer realy lol... if u like that click the banner in my siggy:
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: shroomydan]
#5332024 - 02/23/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said: The Jews missed the boat. They were expecting a political messiah, and when the metaphysical messiah showed up, they did not recognize him.
Jesus may well have been a 'construct,' and that 'construct' is comprised more from Pagan God-men like Osirus, Dionysus, Attis, Tamuz and Mithras then anything that was familiar to Judaism. That is why the Gentiles (non-Jews) picked up on St. Paul's preaching and the Jews who were 'fundamentalist' and non-Hellenized did not accept the Jesus of Paul's preaching. The non-Hellenized Jews were historical and apocalyptic in their Literalist understanding of scriptures, and were awaiting, as you say, an earthly king. Later on, after Paul, with the advent of the Gospel narratives, Gnostic Christianity (as taught by Paul himself in the authentic letters) gave way to the Literalists who were interested in creating a religious power structure, not in personal enlightenment.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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psyillyazul
verbal doubleedged sword BFTD

Registered: 12/13/04
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Loc: zion
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Anybody played with a rubix cube?? Know how the solution is ultimately an arrangement of all values?? What if deep down we all know what 'right' is?? (solid colors on all sides) Finding it is just a matter of arranging all information to produce this desired result. Now if we are GOD, don't you think its time that we realized this latent power?? Everything upside down. Use that shit... Its a tool. Don't you think they already know?? What, you think they don't want you to use it?? This is whats destroying the planet. Duh.
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peaceful_gnome
Stranger


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: psyillyazul]
#5620207 - 05/12/06 05:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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jesus was an alien prototype
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DoctorJ


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Re: Jesus Christ is the False Messiah [Re: WScott]
#5620213 - 05/12/06 05:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think it is a very interesting predicament; Christianity and Judaism.
why does it have to be one or the other?
stop thinking like a computer!
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