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Offlinegluke bastid
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Having Children if the world were to end
    #5299399 - 02/14/06 02:18 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

This is similar to moonshoe's post, which brought up a spin off question...

If you are convinced that the world is a bad place...that our current civilization is sort of a problem, a trap that humanity is stuck in and probably won't get out of unless there is total destruction...is it immoral to bear and raise children?

Or maybe morality isn't the question...I guess my question is, why would you? What is the point of bringing children into the world if you the only future you see for that world is its own destruction?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5299455 - 02/14/06 02:33 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5299512 - 02/14/06 02:53 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.




or Hitler's


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300169 - 02/14/06 05:44 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.




or Hitler's



Hey, either way the fact remains: both you and your children have the potential to change the world.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5300212 - 02/14/06 06:03 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

But why would that be a reason to bring children into a civilization that you see as a failure? So you could somehow train them to become the next Jesus or Siddhartha so they could bring it down and free its people?

I'm interested in why people have kids...because for me I can only see arguments against it.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300259 - 02/14/06 06:20 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If you don't like civilization, change it. And if you can't change it within your lifetime, then instill the right values in your children so they can help change it.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5300280 - 02/14/06 06:27 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I suppose I don't agree with you that one person has the power to change civilization. They can try, but never succeed. Civilization and the power wielders at the top always win. It is like throwing rocks at the sun.

So maybe for the sake of argument let's say civilization cannot be changed. Would you still make babies?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300309 - 02/14/06 06:41 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
So maybe for the sake of argument let's say civilization cannot be changed. Would you still make babies?



Yes. I like civilization, in spite of its flaws. I guess I'm just an optimist.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300339 - 02/14/06 06:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Learn to find solace in the ethereal, and teach your children the same. The material world is wicked indeed.

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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: spud]
    #5300481 - 02/14/06 07:45 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

the thing is, is that you will never know what will come out of it. and you cant try and think of it as like, "hey, what if my kid is effected by all this bad influence and turns into a gangster or a terrorist?"

but you also have to think that maybe one day he'll or she'll be a very important person to society & will help bring people out of the chaos in which they call life. you just have to raise them well, thats all. build them up strong and they'll stay strong.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300661 - 02/14/06 08:25 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

On the one hand, you speak in hypotheticals and in between, as if you believe them to be real.

What has you so convinced humans will destroy themselves in this life time, or even the next 50 generations to come?

Can I ask if you watch a lot of the news or hang around a lot of negative, depressed or pessimistic people or depressive environments?

Look at your question this way. There are no guarantees as it is or ever was. We are all going to die, no matter what and we keep on keeping on.


Many people see all the good in the world and the good people doing good things and live in that goodness wherever they find it or just create it for themselves. Not everyone is easily side tracked by a biased fear based news media, or discouraged by dooms dayers. The news paints a narrow picture and just shows the bad. The good outnumbers it greatly.

However, if people feel this world is a lousy place that is doomed to destruction in the next decade or two then, I at least hope , they don't have children. Like a friend told me that her neighbor reamed her out for being a bad parent because she lets her 7 year old daughter play in her FENCED back yard, in a NICE middle class neighborhood unsupervised. (Stranger Danger Paranoia to the Extreme) .

The neighbor keeps her children inside all day, like prisoners of war because of her fear. She robs them of their young lives because she fears them loosing it. That makes no sense. Her fears cause her to act in the manor which she is afraid of. Its so silly when out her front door, good citizens are walking their dogs, jogging, riding bikes, gardening,  playing with sidewalk chalk, and in the park across the street. They are living.

I don't know where this fear of the world and living in it or the future comes from in some people, my only guess is the news media. It's a shame.  My daughter is almost 9, loves her life and is glad to be here and we are glad she is too. She thanks us for having her and for her life often.

Life is happening NOW. Thats all we ever have had to work with. Nothing is guaranteed beyond the moment at hand. People die everyday, some horrible deaths. That is nothing new. Knowing that doesn't stop most of us from living.

8 billion people and growing on a very large planet in its prime. I wouldn't under estimate what the will to survive and thrive of that many humans can change and overcome.

In all fairness and honesty, I use to think like you did in my early 20s and before and wondered why anyone would  bring a child into this cruel world. That was back when I had a bad attitude about it. As my attitude changed and the good and beauty in the world began to reveal itself to me, Love came and love always finds a way in and through. For the time my daughter has been here, she has brought so much joy, laughter, kindness and love into the lives of others. I'm glad I had a change of heart.

Her being here has caused my husband and I to care more about the planet and life  and to make positive change where we can where as before, we had no reason to and lived to be selfish. Now 3 human beings care because of her new young life, where before there were none.  See how cool it works.

If you truly believe we are doomed to destruction soon, why do you stick around living day by day? Why not end your life if you would keep another's from beginning just because of your fear? There must be enough hope, or good in yours and reason to be alive for you to have not offed yourself yet. Why can't your reasons for sticking around be the same for bringing new life into the world?

I really don't know how to answer your question, because, I am having a hard time imagining what it would even take to convince me that all of human life will be destroyed soon. The odds must be something ridiculous like
1 in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.

Sure, the world has some flaws, however, the good of it and potential to come is worth fighting for and a new generation brought into this world raised to believe that, can make a difference. It will start with ours and how we raise the next one.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineNerdleWombanger
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5301306 - 02/14/06 10:52 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

If you are convinced that the world is a bad place...that our current civilization is sort of a problem, a trap that humanity is stuck in and probably won't get out of unless there is total destruction...is it immoral to bear and raise children?

Probably. If all you mentioned was true, creating more people would just be creating more people who will inevitably suffer.

What is the point of bringing children into the world if you the only future you see for that world is its own destruction?

Perhaps for your own sense of self satisfaction?

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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5301889 - 02/15/06 01:47 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

my only questions are these;
is there a point to life? if so, great, accomplish.
if not, why continue?
what is accomplished by having children?
is humanity nessisary? does the joy in life outweigh the suffering?
is it the same for everyone?
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
since you cant know,
is it responsible to continue without knowing the circumstances?
whats wrong with voluntary extinction?
a lack of humanity is a lack of human joy, of course, it is also a lack of human suffering.
are we subjecting ourselves to reality unnessisarily?
is it worth it?
is it your right to decide?
is it mine?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BleaK]
    #5302865 - 02/15/06 11:53 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Those were thoughtful questions for people to ask of themselves Bleak. You had me wondering why people who are starving, dying of Aids, live in absolute poverty, with no means to give a human a decent life, have children.

When I think of human suffering, I think of those unable to to get over the Victim mentality hump. I wonder why they bring children into the world, when they themselves haven't figured out how to navigate their way through life with a sense of personal empowerment, contentment to joy being the predominant factor experienced.

They still have a right too, I just don't understand why they bring on more life when they themselves are mostly suffering. For people who are living well, they obviously have better attitudes, self empowerment and optimism problem solving skills that got them there so why would they choose not to share it with new life?

No doubt, people who feel like victims of everything being beyond their control and live in suffering or severe depression of any sort and in fear of life, I wish wouldn't have children to pass that mentality and way of life on to. If THEY all stopped procreating and died off, we could rid the world of human suffering or shall I say humans that choose to suffer and make anyone they can suffer along with them.

There is a large population that appreciates life, enjoys it for the most part and gets through its trials and errors making the best of things and they raise children who live in the same manor. They have zero reason or incentive to end it all, believe it will end or that it even should end. Those that want it to end, should just bail out and leave the rest of us to enjoy this wonderland of plenty.

In the mean time, when we come across such people "poor" in spirit, we should ask them what in the hell their problem is and see if we can help them learn how to turn things around for themselves.

I can guarantee that the people having a hard time of life or who attempt to make it hard for others are indeed, poor in spirit. Even if they don't believe in and source from the aethereal divine sort, they feel what we know as team spirit or school spirit for humanity and life on the planet.

Say you were on a basketball team with enthusiastic players that were really good at it and loved the game and a team member was tripping on you all going, "We're going to loose the game, this game sucks, this team sucks, its not even worth playing, you should all just quit now, I am going to."

What would you do with that member?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5306219 - 02/16/06 10:21 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Oh..Jiggy, perhaps you missed something on this planet the last few years ?
I won't raise depression, but the ending of oil, the consumtion of rainforests, the rising depletion of living species, the global warming (melting of polar ice and extincion of the golf-stream), the pollution of nature, the missuse and supression of people, I think I could go on forever.... and you want to shut your eyes ?!?


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5306299 - 02/16/06 10:41 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Hey, either way the fact remains:  both you and your children have the potential to change the world.




Are you proposing that this reasoning suggests that one should multiply and be plenty? Simply by the fact that doing so creates a multitude of possibillities? Potential?

We are all capable of a great list of tasks and accomplishments. If I were to murder another tomorrow, the action has the potential to spring forth a landmark court decision that recognizes that there is no authority by which to judge, thus the dissolution of any law.

I would suggest exercising caution when approaching such decisions and making the choice based on solid, personal reasoning, such as the desire to bring forth a life that one can interact with for quite some time, perpetuating a great series of change and experience. We're discussing the formation of a new being here, the continuation of awareness, not ejaculating into the wind and dreaming of what might become. :smirk:

Quote:


Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.




As if we have any means by which to speculate as to what the world might now be if one facet of existance occured differently. Within a magnificently complex mesh network of continous interaction and change, it is positively useless and not valid to prove a point in such a manner. Perhaps if Jesus was not born, we would all be better off. Mindless speculation bears nothing.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5307060 - 02/16/06 01:36 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I appreciate your well thought out post, jiggy. I enjoyed reading it.

However, when I started this thread, it wasn't my intention to get a discussion going about myself and my views. Rather I wanted to talk about other people's views re: bringing children into a world that is not set up to take care of their fundamental needs as human beings.

I agree with you that you have to find the beauty and miracle of life and embrace it. It's taken me a long time, but I am able to do this most of the time. However all the things I embrace about life exist outside of the system. Loved ones...wilderness...music. I also believe that 99.9% of people living in the civilized world look at things the same way, as if they are somehow outside of it.

So you basically have this civilization made up of people who think they are individuals but really are all just unhappy little cogs in this machine that is destroying the planet and itself simply because it is too big.

So I throw it out again...why give birth to a cog? Why have a child if it is going to be born a slave? I can only sense a desire to have children if I knew that they were going to be free.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5307088 - 02/16/06 01:43 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Oh..Jiggy, perhaps you missed something on this planet the last few years ?
I won't raise depression, but the ending of oil, the consumption of rainforest's, the rising depletion of living species, the global warming (melting of polar ice and extinction of the golf-stream), the pollution of nature, the miss-use and supression of people, I think I could go on forever.... and you want to shut your eyes ?!?




Of course not. I read and watch the news. I keep my eyes on all the games being played on this planet.

I wonder why some shut their eyes to all of the good in the world and want to give up on it so easily. Many are working hard to get clean water and air acts passed, and polluters are being sued. Many are working on alternative fuel sources and autos. 50 new species of insects were just found in a cave in cali. Want the link?

Sure I get pissy when I see pictures of the rain forests being wiped out. Then, I realize, to complain, is to volunteer yourself to become a part of the solution. What are you doing about it all Blue?

Then what gets really whacked, is I will jet off on a plane somewhere and looking out the window, all I see are TREES and open lands. The cities and surrounding  suburbia and little towns are like small dots amongst all of the vastness of trees. Then I wonder what all this talk of deforestation and over population is all about. I think a lot of it is biased, limited focus, news media painting a BS picture of the broader reality at hand.

I do believe the governments like to keep the peoples in fear because scared people are easier to manipulate and control. I'm not buying into the doom and gloom fear machines. Fear just paralyzes people or causes them to act rashly. Some bodies have to keep their heads together, or else we would all be huddled and cowering in the proverbial corner.

Any of you can go cower in the corner if you want. I'll be going to the beach this week end and one of the things I do when i go is bring a bag and I collect trash before I go collecting sea shells and building sand castles. I'm alive now and scary scenarios are not going to rob my life or world away from me.

The dinosaurs were wiped out, but did that stop human life from existing here? Should it go down like this- "Joe, you fucking selfish idiot! You just killed the last Saber tooth Tiger. THAT'S IT! Were all doomed. Everybody gather around now. Time to drink the poisoned kool aide."

Really, is that the attitude to have? 

Whats with the give up so easy attitude?

Support those working for the health of the planet and its inhabitants and those working on alternative fuel sources. Recognize the good and support it. Get to it yourselves where and when you can. Spread information about constructive solutions and what people can do to help create positive change if you care. If you don't care, then, what's the hub bub for? 

I see no constructive point or purpose in self induced depression, fear and negativity nor attempts to induce it into others.


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5307120 - 02/16/06 01:54 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Granted I am speaking for the neck of reality I inhabit, and I see children having more freedom and opportunities for a grand life now then EVER before.

I wonder what makes you believe people are unhappy in life? Most everyone I know off the internet anyway, enjoys it over all.

I don't understand what you mean when you say children's fundamental needs as humans can not be met. Can I ask where you live that children are shelter less, food less, clothless, school-less, and health care less? 

True not all children of the world are provided these things, and thats a crying shame because they all could be. For those who can provide them that and much more, unconditional love, compassionate warmth and patience being vital ingredients, I see no reason not to have them, if you are moved to.

I don't understand why those who can't provide at least the above do. Sometimes I get pissy and want them all sterilized. That feeling only lasts for minutes. Then I settle down and realize, the last thing I want is to play God over other peoples lives.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5307140 - 02/16/06 01:59 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Some families in extremely poor countries have as much children as possible to reap the benefits of some governmental programs. There should be a cap on the amount of children allowed; no doubt about that. What the hell is the point of having 12 kids knowing 6 will probably die an unnecessary death?

The world as we know it, will end this century. There is an impending oil crisis, we have gone past the point of no return for global warming, and theres far too many people to keep order and balance.

Sometimes pain is necessary for growth.

Your perspective is spot on, however, jiggy. There is so much productivity and progression. The world will hopefully be restructured according towards a progressive attitude and that the survivors will learn from the mistakes of the past and a new world will be built around compassion and understanding. I intend to survive, and I hope you do too!

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