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OfflineFospher
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The tie between spirituality and society's progress
    #5293364 - 02/12/06 11:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If you look over the history of the past 2000 years, you would notice that most scientific, battle, and materialistic progress has been done by Western civilizations, ie Europe (or the US, which I consider just a chunk of Europe being moved to another continent).

You would also notice that the dominant religion in developed countries is Christianity.

You would also notice that successful people in any nation tend to be Christian. As I drive through rich suburbs and see Lexus', BMWs, or gas guzzling SUVs which have some kind of emblem on their cars, it's usually Jesus fish or some Christianity-related ribbon. You dont tend to see "Free Tibet" bumper stickers on Escalades, instead you usually see them on beaters, or those cars which have like 20+ political-core and enviromental bumper stickers on them.

Why this trend? Why doesnt Buddhism or Taoism drive people to this level of success? Im not saying that you should have a lot of dough to be fulfilled, but why cant I just not picture a world class CEO meditating? The mark on the horizon for Christians is to perfect themselves in the holy image of God. But what's the drive for Eastern Philosophy?


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5293411 - 02/13/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think buddhism would somehwat conflict w/ capitalism. Though a western buddhist would be fine. there just isnt too many. maybe its like a club, when your in the club its easier to be successful.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: fresh313]
    #5293447 - 02/13/06 12:14 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Capitalism? But Im not even talking about the modern times. I mean for the past 2000 years, Christians thrived in not just economics, but also science, exploration and warfare.

Quote:

maybe its like a club, when your in the club its easier to be successful.




Maybe a Jesus fish on your bumper may save you from a speeding ticket, but you wont get promoted to manager because of your religious beliefs.

Even Japan - where Christianity is not the dominant religion, wouldnt have been where it was without Western Christian influence. Until the 1860's it was a closed country to anything but ships from Portugal coming in. After it opening itself to the Western mindset, it flourished.

This direct relation between the two variables makes quite an obvious pattern.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5293511 - 02/13/06 12:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Why this trend? Why doesnt Buddhism or Taoism drive people to this level of success?

Because "success" is a very relative word...and neither Buddhism or Taoism define "success" as "having lots of money and a fancy car" :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: trendal]
    #5293571 - 02/13/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Did you read the rest of that paragraph?

And I didnt limit success to being financially stable. I limited sucess to society's development in the sense of the scientific, battle, explorative ... and almost any other progressive aspect.

And since Buddhism/Taoism doesnt define "sucess" as "having lots of money and a fancy car", then it must say something about beemers in the Bible, I just cant find it. Maybe you can help me out?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5293590 - 02/13/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Did you read the rest of that paragraph?

No, I just read the one line that I chose to quote :smirk: :rolleyes:

I'm quite sure it doesn't say anything about beemers in the Bible :smirk:

Christians aren't the only ones attaining a high level of success in today's world. In fact I've met far more "successful" people who are atheist than Christian. There's also Jews, I've met a whole hell of a lot of successful ones. Anyone can be wildly successful in today's world and religion really has nothing to do with it.

I think the reason you see so many successful Christians is simply because (a) there's so many Christians in the Western world and (b) our current society started here in the Western world where, as per A, there are a lot of Christians.

Not successful because they are Christian. Just successful and Christian.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: trendal]
    #5293657 - 02/13/06 02:03 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Im not saying that you should have a lot of dough to be fulfilled, but why cant I just not picture a world class CEO meditating?

i'm not sure, in the past century eastern spirituality has gained entry into the business world and i would be willing to wager just about anything that there are CEOs who meditate. there are even a number of business books that make use of it such as the chineese tao of business.

edit: i would have won that wager, just do a google search. there are tons of articles about CEOs who meditate and how studies have shown it reduces the stress of the business world.


Edited by Deviate (02/13/06 02:06 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5293665 - 02/13/06 02:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Midaeval Europe was Christian, and yet China was far more advanced at that time. It wasn't until after the crusades, when people brought back ideas from the Muslim world, that the Renaissance came about, bringing Europe out of the Dark Ages. The real secret to advancement is contact with other cultures, and a willingness to learn from them. Cultures around the Mediterranean had an advantage of being connected to one another by means of the sea. This was intensified by the Romans uniting the area, which also helped Christianity spread throughout the region. Later, when the invention of the compass allowed certain European powers to start navigating the world, they built empires throughout the world, giving them even more cultural contact, and allowing further advancement. China, a once greatly advanced culture, lagged behind due to its extreme xenophobia.


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Edited by Paradigm (02/13/06 02:25 AM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5293888 - 02/13/06 06:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
If you look over the history of the past 2000 years, you would notice that most scientific, battle, and materialistic progress has been done by Western civilizations, ie Europe (or the US, which I consider just a chunk of Europe being moved to another continent).

You would also notice that the dominant religion in developed countries is Christianity.

You would also notice that successful people in any nation tend to be Christian. As I drive through rich suburbs and see Lexus', BMWs, or gas guzzling SUVs which have some kind of emblem on their cars, it's usually Jesus fish or some Christianity-related ribbon. You dont tend to see "Free Tibet" bumper stickers on Escalades, instead you usually see them on beaters, or those cars which have like 20+ political-core and enviromental bumper stickers on them.

Why this trend? Why doesnt Buddhism or Taoism drive people to this level of success? Im not saying that you should have a lot of dough to be fulfilled, but why cant I just not picture a world class CEO meditating? The mark on the horizon for Christians is to perfect themselves in the holy image of God. But what's the drive for Eastern Philosophy?




More specifically it's the Protestant cults with their individualization (focus on reading, each man's interpretation fo the Bible), Industrial Revolutions (N. Europe / Protestant), early development of nationalism (national consciousnesses) and printing presses (distribution of newspapers, support for national identity, access to information, new-found political activism of the lower classes)...

It's not a matter of philosophy of East vs. West, nor spirituality vs. "progress" (what is that anyhow? but a pat on the definer's back?). It's a matter of a an entire tradition, pulling two currents within that and finding their causal relations will be a construction only useful in analytical purposes, but say nothing about the events themselves.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5294088 - 02/13/06 09:07 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If anything, Christianity has hindered scientific progress and still continues to do so. Also, I've never seen any type of Christian propaganda on a respectable vehicle, but perhaps that's just how it is in my area.

To answer your question, I imagine that many middle-upper class Western citizens gravitate towards Christianity in order to achieve a sense of moral superiority, security, and community, just as many of these types of people that I have encountered wear the same type of clothes, live in similar houses, and find their entertainment solely within the mainstream. That Christianity is "good" while any deviation from it is "bad" is a faulty notion ingrained by our society which still lingers today and is readily accepted by many.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5294294 - 02/13/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

its because 90% of "christians" are nothing of the sort, its a false religion. Making it easier to put on the costume, to impress others, and its become vainity. Im a christian, but I'm poor, which is the only way you can be a true christian. otherwise your going against everyhting that he taught.

"To answer your question, I imagine that many middle-upper class Western citizens gravitate towards Christianity in order to achieve a sense of moral superiority, security, and community, just as many of these types of people that I have encountered wear the same type of clothes, live in similar houses, and find their entertainment solely within the mainstream. That Christianity is "good" while any deviation from it is "bad" is a faulty notion ingrained by our society which still lingers today and is readily accepted by many"

good call.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5294606 - 02/13/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Funny that you mention the middle-upper class, because the lower class tends to be much more religious.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Silversoul]
    #5294879 - 02/13/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, that's true. The reason I specifically referred to the middle-upper class was because he said this:

Quote:

Fospher said:
You would also notice that successful people in any nation tend to be Christian. As I drive through rich suburbs and see Lexus', BMWs, or gas guzzling SUVs which have some kind of emblem on their cars, it's usually Jesus fish or some Christianity-related ribbon.




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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5295241 - 02/13/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

the lower class tend to be more honest in their faith, if you are rich or even middle class and call yourself christian then I tell you now you have less chance than the theif who truly repents to make it into heaven.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: blaze2]
    #5295394 - 02/13/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

As far as I can tell, there is no correlation between socioeconomic class and level of honesty.


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Offlineseeker
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5295547 - 02/13/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Even Japan - where Christianity is not the dominant religion, wouldn't have been where it was without Western Christian influence. Until the 1860's it was a closed country to anything but ships from Portugal coming in. After it opening itself to the Western mindset, it flourished."

Just to clarify; Japan didn't open itself, but was forced open by "Western Christian influence" which manifested itself as a fleet of ships sitting off shore threatening to block it's ports and demanding trade at low prices. The adoption of "the Western mindset" was probably more a means of survival than a philosophical shift. As for spirituality, from what I've seen and read the Christianity of Japan has Shinto leanings as do other religions introduced there.

Though Christianity has had major influence on the growth of Western culture, I think it has more to do with the shift in perspective from Jehovah speaking to his prophets to Jesus speaking to the common man. The idea of personal attention from the powers that be may have been the added incentive that drove the innovation giving the narcissist and the socialist spiritual justification; just look at the progress made after the protestant reformation.


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In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: seeker]
    #5295698 - 02/13/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

honesty in your faith is not honesty to a person. as long as a person is honest with God, then at least he is trying. A rich person who KNOWS hes a "christian" and KNOWS he is doing "good" is not being honest with God. The Bible makes it clear, if you have to give you should and certainly you do not need 3 cars, a big house, the list goes on and on. Rich people dont even give because they think its right most of the time they are only looking for tax writeoffs, or personal bragging rights. You, paradigm are either blind or lost. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: blaze2]
    #5296152 - 02/13/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Such hostility coming from you. Please, work out your own inner demons and don't act like I'm the one with the problem. What'd I ever do to you anyway?


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The tie between spirituality and society's progress [Re: Fospher]
    #5296196 - 02/13/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"both! ..and then some"
-Unknown :P


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