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OfflineSneezingPenis
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The latency of perception
    #5291621 - 02/12/06 02:16 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Like the lapse of time between an audio signal taken in by a microphone to the actual time it takes for that signal to come out speakers.

With regards to perception, this makes me ask which is truly the present?
The current "now" perception of reality, or the external reality?

There has to be a latency between the actual reality (existentialists need not apply), and our perception of reality.

So where does actual time fall? in the external reality which we are not aware of until hundredths of a second later, or the reality of what we perceive?

If someone were to say "NOW", they could atleast in some way grasp and label a point in their present time, but it would not be the same for everyone listening, due to the latency.... we would perceive the word "NOW" in our individual present time, but it would not be the same as the person stating their present.

Much like the Superbowl this year, we are on a delay... we are perceiving reality in "our time" and will never be able to perceive "true reality" in the present.


anyone get this at all?


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5291753 - 02/12/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Latency goes both ways...

In the 1980s, neurologist Benjamin Libet conducted an interesting experiment:

He used a tool called an electroencephalograph (EEG) to map the electrical activity in his experimental subjects' motor cortex. This is the part of the brain from which muscle movement is caused to occur.

His subjects were placed in front of a clock with one hand that went around once per second. They were then asked to press a button at random times. Each time the button was pressed, the position of the clock hand was recorded electronically, and the subject was asked what the position of the hand was when they first became aware of their intention to press the button.

On average, the subjects reported awareness of their intention to press the button about 200 milliseconds before the button was actually pressed.

Now the interesting part is that the activity in the motor cortex leading to the pressing of the button began 500 milliseconds before the button press. This is 300 milliseconds (1/3 second) before the subject consciously willed the button press.

This means that there is a 'backward' latency in the assertion of free will. The brain is electrically a third of a second into the series of events required for the button press when the person first decides to press the button.

These results lead to deep questions about the existence of free will.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5291754 - 02/12/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Time is your perception of total motion. There is no numerical clock literally counting down your demise. Time is an invention just like a ruler is. Time has nothing to do with anything other than measurement, and is not universal. Try using a ruler to measure the coast of Europe. You'd have to change the medium of measurement to do that, and still you will be inaccurate. No ruler can give you the definate exact value for the length of say... France.

The latency of perception is subjective and malleable. Certain Buddhist meditation techniques show how you can consciously expand and contract the perception of time.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



Edited by psyka (02/12/06 03:10 PM)


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5291755 - 02/12/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

its all reality , there is just a latency til it becomes part of your reality.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5291794 - 02/12/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

we are perceiving reality in "our time" and will never be able to perceive "true reality" in the present.


Our sense perception is human [read: specific], and as such, it has a specific nature. It utilizes a specific process, and that process takes a certain amount of duration.

If I pick up a baseball, and hold it in my hands, I can see that it is white, with red stitches, and I can feel that it is round, smooth, except for the stitches which feel bumpy and rough, and it is hard. All these qualities were experienced through my faculty of sense perception [read: consciousness], within a certain amount of duration that can be measured in time - which to us, is lightning-like. All this occurred within the present - The Now. Any specific process of sense perception with any living being, be it a human, insect or Martian, will, by it's own specific nature, require an amount of duration.

The baseball outside of my human sense perception, is something that I can only have inferential knowledge about. Although I can say that a dog or cat will percieve the same reality, read: the same existent, I cannot say exactly how the dog or cat will interpret the sensory data that they recieve through their faculty of perception.

The fact that we cannot step outside of our human perception does not change the fact that we can gather immense amounts of information about the object, from the material it is made out of, and what that material is made out of, and going all the way to sub-atomic levels.
There is no reason to conflate reality that is unobserved by our human sense perception as any more or less "true" - different, most certainly, but not in a way that would imply any invalidity of our sense perception.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: Diploid]
    #5291830 - 02/12/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ive heard about that study before and the only thing that bothers me is that the persons acknowledgment of when they thought of something is taken as a control, when it is most definitly a variable.
Thoughts, and ideas just come, before you can actually tell their origin, or time of arrival.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5291844 - 02/12/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Im not stating that we cannot perceive reality, just stating that we can never experience it exactly as it is happening.

and I didnt mean to infer that any reality is more "true" than any other, just really trying to make a literary distinction. Maybe the better word would have been "external".


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5291855 - 02/12/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Reality extrinsic to our sense perception? :smile:



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5291867 - 02/12/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Light travels through space at the speed of two hundred thousand miles per second. It takes just over eight minutes to reach us from the sun, so that the picture we have of the sun is as it was eight minutes before we looked at it. It takes four years and four months for light to reach us from the nearest star, and thirty-six years for it to reach the North Star? It takes several centuries to reach us from certain other stars which we consequently see as they were several centuries ago."


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5291887 - 02/12/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Time exists only in our minds man. there is no "Real Time". Just what we percieve. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: blaze2]
    #5291912 - 02/12/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

is not what we percieve , real time.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: fresh313]
    #5291932 - 02/12/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

nope no time is "real" its all an illusion, or an idea. there is only a single moment in truth. a "now" if you will but teh now is the whole of the past and future. its ALL. "time" is the just the observation of dynaminc matter.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: fresh313]
    #5291946 - 02/12/06 04:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Factor relativity into the question and there truly is no such thing as a universal "now".

Lets say we are both watching a ball that will be dropped from a ceiling. You are just a foot or two away from the ball, while I am ten or twenty feet away. When the ball first hits the floor we will both make a mental note of it.

The ball is dropped.

You "see" it hit the floor and make a note of it. However you didn't see it as it was happening due to the already mentioned latency in perception. Further, it takes time for the light to travel from the ball to your eyes which adds another (incredibly) small latency.

I "see" it hit the floor, though again I only "see" it after the fact due to latency of perception. I also see it a little later than you do because I am much farther away from the ball than you are - so the light takes even longer to reach my eyes.

So then my concept of the "now" when the ball hit the floor is almost entirely independant of your own concept of that "now". We both had latencies of various times added to our perception of the event.

In a physical sense, there is no such thing as universal time. One person's "now" is only their own - it can never be exactly the same as anyone else's "now".


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: trendal]
    #5292015 - 02/12/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

dude your still on percievnig time, but how can your percieve a thing that doesnt exist? you cant in reality there is no time, because time as a human idea is the passing of a moment, but the moment doesnt actually pass the things inside the moment just change. Change is not perception of time, because time only exists inside the mind, and Change obviously exists all throughout the universe even where there are no observers, so change must be independent of the perception of time.

we consider Time because we REMEMBER, if we had no memories would we even have a word for it? Nope. Things just are in the moment, they change in teh moment, the move in teh moment, but they can never leave the moment, which is why time travel is impossible(unless of course you start talking about multiple realities which is a whole different basket of eggs.) There is no past or future, they dont exist, the past is wiped away by the moment adn the future is only what the moment will become.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: blaze2]
    #5292043 - 02/12/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i think these latency of sounds smell taste vision touch are negligble enough to be considered real time for all humans.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: trendal]
    #5292077 - 02/12/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

this is exactly the direction I wanted this thread to go in....

Blaze 2 is dead on IMO.

But with the ball analogy, I think you are discerning between physical latency.
If you were further away from the ball than I was, you would perceive it slightly later than I would, but that is mainly due to physical travel of reflections of light.

what I am talking about is the actual lapse in time between sensing something physically, and acknowledging it mentally- where it becomes the present, or "reality".


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5292096 - 02/12/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

in the mind the moment can never be realized. It is like trying to hold on to smoke.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: blaze2]
    #5292107 - 02/12/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
dude your still on percievnig time, but how can your percieve a thing that doesnt exist? you cant in reality there is no time, because time as a human idea is the passing of a moment, but the moment doesnt actually pass the things inside the moment just change. Change is not perception of time, because time only exists inside the mind, and Change obviously exists all throughout the universe even where there are no observers, so change must be independent of the perception of time.

we consider Time because we REMEMBER, if we had no memories would we even have a word for it? Nope. Things just are in the moment, they change in teh moment, the move in teh moment, but they can never leave the moment, which is why time travel is impossible(unless of course you start talking about multiple realities which is a whole different basket of eggs.) There is no past or future, they dont exist, the past is wiped away by the moment adn the future is only what the moment will become.




I certainly can perceive time, even if it isn't a physical "thing" to be seen or touched. Can you perceive distance? I can.

Time is just distance - the distance between two events, between two instances of "now".


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Edited by trendal (02/12/06 05:39 PM)


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: trendal]
    #5292931 - 02/12/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

awsome read.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: The latency of perception [Re: BleaK]
    #5294256 - 02/13/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

the perception of something does not make it real. is distance real? It is measurable, but that does not mean reality.

In reality there is only one Now, the mind remembers past moments and that is the only place they exist. If something doesnt exist outside the mind how can it be real?


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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