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InvisibleSilversoul
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Crime and bad parents
    #5290687 - 02/12/06 01:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I realize this is technically a political question, but it has far-reaching philosophical consequences. It's pretty well established that violent criminals often tend to have a bad childhood while growing up. Therefore, should the people responsible for that bad childhood be held legally responsible for their part in bringing up a thief/rapist/murderer? After all, their irresponsible behavior is a threat not only to their children, but to society. It is illegal for a bartender to serve someone more drinks when he knows someone's had too much. Yet bad parenting can have much further-reaching consequences than letting someone drive drunk. So why should the latter be punishable by law, but not the former?


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InvisiblePsychoChipmunk
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5290711 - 02/12/06 02:36 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Sometimes those who've had bad childhoods/parents grow up and become good parents as a result. I agree that parents have the single largest/most important influence on a child's life, but they cannot completely control all aspects of it (such as school difficulties.) Like the saying goes, "It takes a village to raise a child."

In order to make this into a binding law, you would have to legislate morality/childrearing. Granted, parents who beat their kids, molest them etc are certainly breaking the law. Some things are obvious, but where do you draw the line? Parents who are emotionally distant? Divorced parents? Parents bringing up kids in an intolerant fundamentalist religion?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5290715 - 02/12/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Therefore, should the people responsible for that bad childhood be held legally responsible for their part in bringing up a thief/rapist/murderer?

And often it is the case that their parents were victims of poor parenting as well, and so on ad infinitum. Should this not be taken into consideration as well?

If they are to be held legally responsible for their offspring's deviation from the norm, then by what standard[s] of evaluation are we to evaluate the legal punishment they are to recieve?

What method[s] of analysis should be employed to accurately determine the extent of psychological damage that was caused by the parents, as well as other factors, e.g., social situations, intrapersonal circumstances, and cultural upbringings? How are we to distinguish truth from falsehood, i.e., who's telling the truth and who's telling lies?

Yet bad parenting can have much further-reaching consequences than letting someone drive drunk.

Agreed.


So why should the latter be punishable by law, but not the former?

I surmise the reason is practicality, as it is much more level-headed and unspeculative. The former would, in reality, ensue in staggering amounts of complication - all built upon foundations of unverifiable question marks.

The best we can do, at the moment, is to halt such bad parenting in-action as we see it today, and to promote educated, rational and healthier modes of behavior as effectively as we can.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5290804 - 02/12/06 05:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

half of what we know is what we learn from the world. obviously, parents are a hug influence.

from what i have heard, all child abusers were abused as children themselves. it might not be the parents who abused them, but someone who was close to them. this can destroy the childs view on trust and comfort and security. my teacher gave a small lecture on this last class, and i wish i could explain it as well as she did, but i cant. lol. basically, the only way to get stop future child abusers, is to stop the current ones before they can abuse someone.

this is one example but it can be used for many other views such as the one stated above.
although, one thing is being abused, another thing is being a criminal. once you touch crime, there is a vast array of different crimes which consist of different people with different histories who do crim for different reasons. and who decides what a crime is?\

violence it self can be learned in a multitude of ways. school (school fights), the street (street fights), clubs, the sand box... the list goes on and on. also, some people tend to be genetically more violent (i say genetically because some people can be realy violent even with the gentlest of parents and some really gentle environments). remember, even when we were cavemen, we had to hunt for food, we had to defend territory, etc etc. its been a part of our survival to be agressive. and agressive can indirectly turn to violence.

sometimes having bad parents shows us how we dont want to be, it shows us how not to behave. but for this to work, the child must first see that what his parent/s are doing is wrong.

so, what im sayin is that the foundation of violence itself is to hard to find and isolate. the only way to get violence is to get the world, the whole human race to stop being agressive, and stop people from fearing that they might be attacked. and this task is impossible.


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: eligal]
    #5290810 - 02/12/06 05:16 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

eligal said:
so, what im sayin is that the foundation of violence itself is to hard to find and isolate. the only way to get violence is to get the world, the whole human race to stop being agressive, and stop people from fearing that they might be attacked. and this task is impossible.




I fail to grasp what aspect of this task defines it as impossible to implement. It is only impossible if you yourself fail to act as the catalyst to such change. It is your responsibility. It might still remain improbable, but its possibillity is no longer negated. One must be the change that one wishes to seek.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5290840 - 02/12/06 05:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

society should be held responsible, send em all to jail, they all made my kid a murderer, i was a great parent


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5291291 - 02/12/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I pretty much see it as skorp does and wanted to add something to it.

I saw a show where some schools were taking proactive measures to keep another columbine from happening.

Instead of the usual procedure to send troubled kids causing trouble to the principles office or detention hall or suspending them, they sent a specialist into the child's home.

The specialist gave the parents/care givers new parenting techniques to implement. In all of the cases where the parents used them, the child's behavior automatically changed in a short time.

This seems to be a great solution for holding parents/care givers responsible for the actions of their 17 and unders in a constructive way that actually produces the desired changed.

The cycle of abuse is chain that won;t be broken until, one of the persons in the cycle, breaks from the pattern of behavior. It takes some for of intervention. Some people from abusive households, make that "intervention change" on their own and seek information as to how to break it and set a new pattern.

It can be done, with "parenting education". If I had my way with the school board, I would implement the first program in all schools, I first mentioned and I would also make parenting classes mandatory for all HS Juniors and Seniors.

Even if someone at that age thinks they will never have children, they may none the less, and may still find themselves in some role or occupation which has a strong influence over other peoples kids.

Education is key in this area. It takes nothing more the raising awareness of the pattern of abuse and how it will repeat itself if their is no intervention, and that there are ways to break the pattern and set new ones with alternative techniques for child rearing.

The problem also runs in an area less easier to see. Kids who are neglected, though not physically abused and non violent, are being abused mentally and emotionally just the same and they may become physically abusive to others.

The shooter in the columbine incident are a perfect example. Their parents and the school staff did not recognize something was hurting them. They were being bullied at school. Rage built up in them and they acted out against the school kids to make it stop.

A proactive approach takes recognizing all potential sources of spawning violent behavior in children, that if not addressed, moves on into their adult behavior.

I think the education budget should be increased to implement programs like the one I outlined as educating parents and people how to parent falls under "public education". Everyone benefits as it makes all of our communities safer places to be.

Some people with out children say, "Its not my problem" and vote No to increases in the education budget. When they get assaulted in a parking lot or by a boyfriend/ hostile neighbor or coworker, it is their problem.

We share this world with each other. Violence and abuse is everyones problem to start taking responsibility for in whatever way we can and it starts with education. Neglecting those that are non violent who are being abused by others then their parents is often a missed time bomb in the making. When you see it, do something to let them know, what is happening to them is not right.

If nothing is said and done, they get the message from society at large that violence/abuse must be the right way to get your way and its a matter of time before they may act out violently or abusively to make it stop.

Important topic that doesn't get enough attention in this world paradigm. Thanks for bringing it up! Maybe some day, rearing respectful and decent human beings will become a priority to the 3 Rs.

I liked how one man said, "What good is it if little Johnny knows his times table and can't keep from biting his little sister?"

Where are our priorities as a collective of people?  If we don't ALL do what we can to make this world a safe and peacefull place to live in as our number one priority, wherever, whenever and however we can then we are ALL to blame IMHO.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5291750 - 02/12/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, identify with the root of the problem.

You have a bad child and you have a bad parent. The parent was once a child too... was the parent a bad child then, as well? If so, what is the root problem? What spawned the first bad child?

It has a lot to do with the structure of society and the pursuit of comfort.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineWysefool
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5291758 - 02/12/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Monkey see monkey do :creepymonkey:


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5291870 - 02/12/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

eligal said:
so, what im sayin is that the foundation of violence itself is to hard to find and isolate. the only way to get violence is to get the world, the whole human race to stop being agressive, and stop people from fearing that they might be attacked. and this task is impossible.




I fail to grasp what aspect of this task defines it as impossible to implement. It is only impossible if you yourself fail to act as the catalyst to such change. It is your responsibility. It might still remain improbable, but its possibillity is no longer negated. One must be the change that one wishes to seek.





dude, as hard as you try, its impossible to stop the eintire world from being violent... lol. damn optomistic hippies...  :tongue: i never said not to try, i just said that it wont happen. :thumbup:


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5292010 - 02/12/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It kinda takes away some responsibility of adults for their actions if they can somehow prove they had bad parents and subsequently a bad childhood. While alot of criminals may have had bad childhoods, so have countless other people who have grown up to live productive, law abiding lives.


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Basilides]
    #5292061 - 02/12/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
It kinda takes away some responsibility of adults for their actions if they can somehow prove they had bad parents and subsequently a bad childhood. While alot of criminals may have had bad childhoods, so have countless other people who have grown up to live productive, law abiding lives.



This is hinting at where I was going with this: Are we victims of circumstance, or do we in fact have the power to choose our own destiny? Clearly, two people can have similar backgrounds and yet make different choices. Does the fact that certain things impact us psychologically mean that our choices are already predetermined?


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5292064 - 02/12/06 05:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Are we victims of circumstance, or do we in fact have the power to choose our own destiny?

Yes.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5293127 - 02/12/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
It kinda takes away some responsibility of adults for their actions if they can somehow prove they had bad parents and subsequently a bad childhood. While alot of criminals may have had bad childhoods, so have countless other people who have grown up to live productive, law abiding lives.



This is hinting at where I was going with this: Are we victims of circumstance, or do we in fact have the power to choose our own destiny? Clearly, two people can have similar backgrounds and yet make different choices. Does the fact that certain things impact us psychologically mean that our choices are already predetermined?




well there is a theory, i forgot who started it but it basically says that based on your background, if someone were to analyse it enough, they would be able to predict your decisions before you made them. thus, you have no choice, rather you are following the formula of which life has surved you


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: eligal]
    #5293315 - 02/12/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I was talking about this last night with my husband. I'm writing this to the general reader.

I think it can be argued/reasoned that both predetermined actions and free will hold truth.

I think its true that people are often on the auto pilot programming of monkey see monkey do, because its easier. You don't have to think for yourself and you have something to blame/back your actions on.

I also think its true that people break from auto pilot thinking and question why they should or not do something a certain way just because, its all they have seen or know. At that point, a program pattern can be altered and free will can be engaged.

I read in a research report years back that people on average spend about 10% of their waking day in cognitive thought. Thats a sad average. Get cognitive as much as possible if you want to be free. That stat means the rest of the day they are running off subconscious auto pilot programming. Thats a robot, not a free thinking free willing person.

Test yourselves and see how often you catch yourself, rethinking what you are doing and why you think you have to be or should be doing it that way, if at all.

Start asking yourself this vital question "WHO SAYS?" You will learn in short time who your "proverbial" slave masters are if you have any and what has been keeping you from your freedom to think, choose and will life for yourself. 

Anyway, I could argue the truth of predetermined action and the truth of free willing actions.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: Silversoul]
    #5293323 - 02/12/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

B.F. Skinner thought it was operationally possible to have a world without punishment.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5293403 - 02/12/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
B.F. Skinner thought it was operationally possible to have a world without punishment.




Principle Skinner from the Simpsons??


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\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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OfflineKamek
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Re: Crime and bad parents [Re: eligal]
    #5294204 - 02/13/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I was thinking that it's possible to predict every action anyone might ever take by putting everything that exists into a huge computer. Every thoughts, creatures, ideas, every little cell etc etc etc etc etc.... Everything...

But then i was thinking it would be impossible to put the computer into the computer as well...


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