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InvisibleDisco Cat
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How do you let go?
    #5288962 - 02/11/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Speaking on ego death, how does one let go? It is my biggest fear and I have been extremely damaged from too many bad trips where I refused to let go. It's so bad that even now, when I'm sober, I can feel my clinging on and the fear growing bigger.

I know that letting go will heal me because years ago I experienced this a couple times, but since I have not been able to let go.
I've had many experiences even worse than what is described in this thread and I know that what Lunatik said is true. This is what he said:
Quote:

Yes, I've had that happen before...several times.

It's basically a period right before a specific type of ego-loss. It's the type where you are pushed to release your ego by being crushed with negative thoughts. However, you didn't let go, so that's why it stuck with you. I'm positive of this.




When I have a negative thought, I've tried to rationalize with it, I've tried to refute it, I've tried to complete it to make it whole, I've tried to just let it voice itself and not care, I've tried to admit to myself that I just have evil thoughts, so you can see I've tried working out for myself an understanding of how this works so that I can control things, but nothing helps. I get afriad that I am too far gone and the burden is too big. What is wrong with each of these ways of dealing with , and what is the thing you are supposed to do? Are you supposed to just not care whatever happens? I try that a lot and it doesn't seem to work.

I need the help of someone who knows how to let go and can instruct me through this and tell me what I'm doing wrong and assure me that I'm not too far gone  :frown:

Are you supposed to do anything with all those negative thoughts in order to let go of ego, are you supposed to ignore them (because I never can)? Where is the consciousness directed while you make this transition? I get way too attached to feelings and try to use them as guidlines, but if I don't I don't know what I'm supposed to use to guide the way to mentally go.


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InvisibleDmonikal
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5288974 - 02/11/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ego death IS still you man. Just a different part of you. Ego death isn't even remotely scary, in fact it is the opposite. You will think some thoughts you probably NEVER had in your entire life. Very nice therapy for some people.


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Give your money or your life
Take 'em both for all I care
Dump your bullets right here


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Dmonikal]
    #5288986 - 02/11/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

How can I make that conscious recognition when I don't know what it looks or feels like? How will I ever know I'm going in the right direction and that the next step will take me into that healing space? I suppose if I'm taking a path at all I'm probably going in the wrong direction, and that it's just a one step thing, but I don't know how to find that step. How do you find that step and what does it look like? I've lived destroyed for so long that I've convinced myself it is normal to feel like this and it would be unnatural and wrong to feel full and whole, and I don't know how to change that perception.

I've even been to several doctors about it, but they all think I'm making things up, or need psychotic meds. I know that it is only a matter of being able to let go tho. My mom is also a strong case of not being able to let go, and so her behavior is an influence on my perception of what I'm able to do.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5288998 - 02/11/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You need to let go of letting go.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (02/11/06 03:06 PM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5289011 - 02/11/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Does this take thinking about, or not thinking about? This is where I get afraid of becoming unconscious when letting go.

Another issue is that I guilt myself into thinking that I don't deserve to let go and feel good about myself and get distraught when I think about ways that I've hurt my family. And I think that if I let go I'd move ahead while they'd stay stuck where they are, even tho they're all way better off than I am, probably not even affected, for the most part. And then I try to earn my way, justifying it thru behaviour.
I also get afraid that if I let go I'll do too much, be too free. It's a weird concept, but that I'll be inhumanly unstoppable and amitious. I don't know what that's a fear, but I think it might be fear that I'll be different from the rest of inhibited society, because I see inhibitions everywhere I look.


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5289022 - 02/11/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

In my experience, I dont have a choice of letting go. My ego/self/everything I once knew is torn away from me.

In the process Im usually lying on the floor, just breathing deep. Somewhat a form of meditation. Not trying to hold on to reality and my surroundings...whats going on? Am I going to be ok? Maybe I should call for help etc.

Just lay back and let it run its course. Its like getting mentally raped by something much greater then yourself. You have no choice. Might as well lay back and wait for it to be over.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #5289067 - 02/11/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Hearing how you people experience it is good.

Another thing that gets to me is how so many people talk about it in different ways, but only one of the ways is good sounding and happens to be my experience. This makes me believe that many people only experience the negative without letting go and then assume that what they experienced was ego loss, and therefore ego loss isn't enjoyable. As I've experienced it, it is the greatest experience in life, and nothing compares. It is the thing that makes exery other action in life either desireable or not desireable. But since nobody draws lines on the discussion to define what it is and it isn't I lead myself to believe that my experience was my imagination (bother times were about 5 years ago) and I lose hope and figure my condition is physical malady and that there is no truth to the matter. I know that there is truth, but I can't seem to hold on to it when everything I see in people suggests that they are not aware of any of it.

I get very angry that it is even referred to as "ego death," beause that scares people, and me away from it right away. I feel the same way about Jesus, tho everything he taught is true and agreeable with all positive philosophy, all the books explaining him and his followers use negative terminology to describe everything. It stirrs up great feelings of hate for him, even tho what he offered is what I want. I don't know if that was his choice, or if others have translated all the books in such detrimental ways, but it makes me want to tear apart whoever is responsible.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5289121 - 02/11/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Check this discussion out:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5243429#Post5243429

There is a difference between ego loss and ego death.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Dmonikal]
    #5289171 - 02/11/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ego death IS still you man. Just a different part of you. Ego death isn't even remotely scary, in fact it is the opposite.




Nice  :thumbup:

Hmmmm good question, I think everyone has there own methods for blipping off the radar screen when they want the break.

To experience a mild form of egolessness, just get quiet and listen and observe for as long as you can. Do it long enough until it dawns on you that the world keeps moving and life keeps going on with or with out you.

When you get to that point, any sense of self importance you had fades away. Then a great sense of freedom envelopes you. Its like wearing the cloak of invisibility. Like monocle said, it becomes the opposite of the sort of scary that goes along with self consciousness or showing up on the "enemy radar". That just goes along with a separatist ego state of mind-the idea of enemies. It takes two for there to be opposition.

In ego loss you are a part of the one and the opposition disappears.

The fear leaves.

Your question is, why are you afraid of leaving fear?

Well its exciting and makes our senses come alive on high alert making us feel more alive. Maybe its the expression "ego death" that scares people because people are instinctively afraid of death.

I look at it differently in my own world. I see the times where I am just at one with life as the silent witness, the real naked me. When we go to interact with life, we become a self reference point, an identity, to the environment and some form of ego is required. I look at ego states as being like indentifiers or clothes we wear. You wear different outfits to meet different environments and activities needs.

If you find yourself wearing clothes that feel or look evil to you "however you define that" , what environments or activities are you engaging in to feel a need for that get up? Think on that one for a while. Maybe some change made there alone will do the trick.

It sounds to me like you feel you need to keep protected. Remember, when you get to the place of being at one or at one ment atonement, there is no opposition to be afraid of. It's all you in spirit, individualized wearing costumes, playing along with the role of the costume "as if they are it". Its so beleivable because how how much people beleive themselves to be the roles they play and costumes they wear.

Think of how you feel at a costume party. You know its all friends and the costumes aren't real and you laugh at the clowns, and shudder at the big scary demons, and delight at the princess's. They are as real as we believe them to be for a spell or play along with them as if they are.

The more belief we have in the costumes, the more power we give them to become real to us. It's our power they have to use against us if we give it away through belief and that includes, the false things we believe about ourselves and how we can act against the self even.

Get to a point where you can see reality that way, being the silent invisable observer and being at a costume party at the same time. Then you are free to be in either state without fear of loss because, you have access to it all.

Start with becoming the quiet observer until you see, life goes on without you and your sense of self importance tanks down to nothing. Thats what I do when I get so caught up in the costume party and the pretend play I start believing in the costumes, including my own.

I use the word pretend "loosely" . Of course this stuff is real in physicality. If I hit you you'll feel it. Its pretend dress up play from the perspective of the one eternal spirit seeing itself individualized and wearing costumes in physicality.

If you want to walk around naked from ego like Jesus or the Buddha, you can do that as if you went to the costume party in jeans and a T-shirt. You're no longer anything grand and fancy, ridiculous, or ugly and scary. You just are happy to be there with friends, casually sharing life with them. No need to make judgments about the costumes or react and respond to them as if they are real because, you know they are not and that, regular people just like you, in jeans and T's "in spirit" are behind them. 

I don't know if any of this helps you at all. Just thought I would put some different perspective and methods out there. I'm sure more will and something will click with you.

I don't see complete ego loss as being a practical state for functioning in this world. Even Jesus had some use of one he couldn't escape while in the flesh and so did the Buddha. What sets them a part is their compassion and unconditional love for all, and their consistent awareness of being atoned with spirit.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5289368 - 02/11/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

breath inn..

hold your breath..

now..... keep holding it!

feel/felt it?





that exhale, ... is letting go [of]..
:crazy:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5289459 - 02/11/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Has it not occurred to you that you are not READY to die? Just because your ego thinks it should have mastery over the fear of death doesn't mean anything. You need to live a long healthy life so that the fear begins to leave naturally. Over 85% of octogenarians (those over age 80) do not have fear of death (I am trained in human development). It is a difficult path and a tragic one at that when young people die. They must prepare as best they can before dying. As BE HERE NOW put it, 'the snake must shed its skin at the rate that the skin sheds. If you 'skin' the snake, it dies.' The thinning of the ego's fear (like the thinning of one's hair, skin, memory, etc.) is a natural process.

You'd like to be 'the Buddha of Fearlessness' in what...your 20s? Wouldn't that be cooler than being a multi-millionaire in your 20s? Instead of being able to feed all your desires, you wouldn't have any desires that needed to be fed! Of course, (and I've posted on this before), it's very very difficult to live life at an early age without desires keeping you in the game of life. Fear of death means that you are still very vital, and being vital it is unnatural to want to relinquish life because having a life means living, and living means desires - even natural desires like raising a family (not unnatural desires or exaggerated desires like owning a Dodge Viper so one can pick up gold-digging strippers more easily [sorry, that's one of my exaggerated desires :blush:]).

Stop wanting to be done with your ego - that is tantamount to wanting to be done with life. It is renunciation, but it is also subtley suicidal. Renunciants are dead to the world. They are either homeless vagrants or cloistered monks. Some are incurable psychotics with pathologically decompensated egos - not enlightened beings. The Middle Way my friend, The Middle Way is The Way.



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5289520 - 02/11/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

But isn't there a difference between fearing death and simply wishing to hold off on it for a while. I've thought about it many times, and figured that I'm not afraid to die if my time comes sometime soon, but I'd prefer not to, simply because I feel my work here is not done.


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5290296 - 02/11/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:thumbup:

This is such a cool post because it's such a different perspective on the subject. 

But, in the same sense, because it makes me feel better about fearing ego loss/death, it instinctively makes me think that I'm selling out and taking the easy way out and that it's OK to avoid it.... :confused:

Ego games again??????? :tongue:


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5290421 - 02/11/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm liking the idea that ego is an important part, and a good part of you. It looks like I had things viewed the wrong way around. There's a whole website on ego-death and this is one of the things said on it:
Quote:

For New Agers, disparaging talk of 'the ego' is not really about 'the ego' that we all are born with: they are thinking of hateful arrogance and undeserved vanity...

But the ego that we all are given, that structure which disintegrates in schizophrenia, is different than the vain ego or the political ego. The interesting and universal 'ego' that is a given for all healthy, normal people, is the ego as a cognitive structure -- a structure that is not simply one structure among an entire mental model of the world, but rather, it is a particular relationship and set of associations among the self-symbol and the concept of the world, the concept of agency in general, the concept of time, and the concept of (metaphysical) freedom and power. These are the primary concepts that are wrapped up with the ego-concept. Vanity and political freedom are tangential issues distinct from the ego and the egoic mental model of the world.



http://www.egodeath.com/virtualego.htm

It also makes sense to me to say that when you surrender to hell it becomes heaven, as described in the other ego thread link to in an above post by dblaney. The opposition no longer becomes opposition, but one with you, and you find out that it was god, who is all things "bad" and "good,"you were resisting.
I think there is even a verse out of the OT which says along the lines of: If you become smug before me I will devour you and rip you to pieces. Then when you are destroyed I will piece you back together, cradle you in my arms and smother you with kisses.
That is my own wording because I do not know where the verse was, but something close to that is there. It's not important, just coincidental.


Edited by Disco Cat (02/12/06 12:06 AM)


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5290533 - 02/12/06 12:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps it is also easy to feel like you're threatened and alone, resulting in spiritual slipping when you focus only on a single aspect of your ego. When you combine many aspects together it may be a lot easier to feel strength and secureness...
This only applies when your ego has been shattered, like mine.

Perhaps combining the different ego shards, or personalities, is the key to the rebuilding of the person.


Edited by Disco Cat (02/12/06 12:36 AM)


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5290698 - 02/12/06 02:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I need the help of someone who knows how to let go

One cannot let go of something if one does not want to let go of it - a motivation fueled by some form of dishonesty or evasion of reality.

One cannot let go of something until they first acknowledge that they possess it, just as one cannot consciously drop a habit until he accepts the fact that he has it.

Upon acceptance of such facts, one should review their own thinking [philosophy] which gives rise to their actions [ethics] that create undesired effects. This is the hard part, and often requires brutal self-honesty and full acceptance of the facts of reality. You may even realize that you need an entire philosophical makeover, and to start over from scratch, rebuilding your philosophy, step-by-step in accordance to your new-found respect for reality. It may not be pleasant at first, in some areas.. but a quote comes to mind:
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."
Dr. Dolf DeRoos



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5290770 - 02/12/06 04:34 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

hmm, i think i let go, but how can you ever be truely sure you have let go?

basically ive just accepted it. i look back at my life and see and realize all that ive learned and all which ive enjoyed. i think about all the times that ive smiled, about all the things and people that made me feel pure joy and happiness.

but how can you ever let go? i think maybe you just have to accept that you cant let go. and thats live. with our animal instincts of survival, we will always try to survive, so through genetics and thus psychological dilemas, we can never truely let go. but thats ok. its the fight which we live for. dont lay down and let yourself die, fight for life, and thats all you can or need to do.

hope you get through this man :heart:


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5290780 - 02/12/06 04:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

SkorpivoMusterion, I like that lesson you posted.

And eligal, if you're whole inside then you've let go. If you're empty inside you know you haven't let go in the right way :smile: and it hurts :frown: But thanks a ton for you positive words  :laugh: I'm looking to this forum to build me up enough to let go  :heart:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5290942 - 02/12/06 08:17 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Fear of death means that you are still very vital, and being vital it is unnatural to want to relinquish life because having a life means living, and living means desires - even natural desires like raising a family.
Stop wanting to be done with your ego - that is tantamount to wanting to be done with life. 




A fear of death is not necessary to actively engage in one's life and accomplish that which one wishes to accomplish. I would, in fact, consider it a great detriment. A fear of death quite naturally manifests in situations where an immediate threat on one's life is not evident. One begins to associate their identity with their life, a certain way of thinking with their life, one's possesions with their life, one's abstract senses of manhood, etc.,  and when it is questioned or "threatened", it is the equivalent of threatening one's life itself.

All of which drains one's mental resources and diminshes one's awareness, which effectively lessens one's ability to influence reality to present itself as one would prefer it to. The sooner one accepts the reality of their situation, the better. I prefer to come to terms with what remains glaringly obvious, so that I can form a better understanding of life, so that I can more productively live and enjoy it, instead of striving to accomplish my tasks while being drug along by a riptide of fear so that I can die with a sense of "completeness". Its terrible that I already feel complete at such a young age; I've already given up. :rolleyes: :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: VirgilKane]
    #5291066 - 02/12/06 09:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps like myself, you need to look into a masochistic personality streak which colors one's spirituality in an ascetic way. I struggled with celibacy, ethical vegetarianism, sleeping on the floor without a pillow, refusing gifts, and all manner of self-denials. I modified my celibacy into monogamy, I give thanks to God and the animal that unwillingly died for me (I eat meat sparingly), I sleep on a firm bed with an orthopaedic pillow, I graciously accept reasonable gifts, and I do not buy myself extravagant things even though I could.

When I 'renounced the glamour of Satan' at my Baptism years ago, I never really grokked that 'glamour' is the illusion that makes things appear much more desirable than they are (sexed-up women, Rolex watches, Hummer vehicles, etc.) I do reject the power of such illusions which is what the desire for 'status' is all about ('trophy wives,' fashionable cars, designer clothes, big name jewelry, etc.). I'll buy a couple thousand dollars worth of diamonds to sparkle-up my Lady's engagement ring, but the most expensive piece of jewelry that I own is a $65 Kabbalistic Tree pendant that I wear around my neck. I don't wear a watch at all for philosophical reasons - I wear a Tibetan Buddhist bracelet with the Great Mantra to remind me of indwelling Eternity. I wear Wrangler jeans and drive a Mazda Miata (I didn't know til recently that the car was named after God in Zoroastrianism - Ahura Mazda). I refuse to own a cell phone because I see the psychological dependency on it. People would have the phones surgically implanted if they could - and they probably will.

I'm clearly not an ascetic when compared to St. Anthony of the desert, or St. Francis of Assisi, or St. Teresa of Avila, but on closer inspection there was some serious masochistic pathology among them! St. Teresa wrote about her compulsion to put her lips to the most disgusting coughed up snot on the ground, to humiliate herself - and she did it! Yeccchh!!! Francis mixed ashes with his simple food so he couldn't possibly, accidentally enjoy his God-given sense of taste. Anthony was either tripping out on ergot-tainted bread (for which ergotism was named 'St. Anthony's Fire') or he just went mad from his austerities and fought demons his whole life (as painted by Bosch, Bruegel, etc.).

So, what do you want, Illumination or pain. It's not a matter of 'no pain, no gain,' that is egotism too just like too much pleasure. Yogi Hari Das Baba was asked "What are you thinking?" and he replied "I am not thinking about anything, I am keeping myself between pleasure and pain." (The Yellow Book).

Explore the masochism.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5291080 - 02/12/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Like Casteneda's Don Juan Matus: "Death is my advisor." Besides mortality being the mother of all anxiety (Freud), it is also "always near" (J. Morrison). Death is a continual advisor to be involved as deeply as possible in each moment. This is the "impeccability" of a "Man of Knowledge" that Don Juan was all about. As my Lady's mum always says: "Tomorrow is not promised." It is not about experiencing fear, it is about being conscious. Death means limitation and like a timed test, the duration of which we are not told, we must focus in earnest, not in terror. The moment-to-moment goal is to BE in peace/fearlessness/freedom. As the Boy Scouts of America motto says: "Be Prepared."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5291103 - 02/12/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Certainly. The realization of death and its acceptance serves to bring oneself within one's being and engage in the here and now experience as much as possible. The resolution of the fear of death assists this as well, the acceptance of the fact that one's sense of identity and one's experience is not permanent turns off emotional interference and mental barriers that obstruct one from their direct perceptions and state of being.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5291275 - 02/12/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I like the Zen saying that death is merely 'an expiration that is not followed by an inspiration.' Just the simple fact of the cessation of breathing - no metaphysics - is rather comforting to my metaphysical mind. Or again, when asked what dying is like, the dying Roshi said "The sound of the squirrel, running on the roof," which is what his awareness was of at the moment of the question. It can be that simple. It is nothing to get upset about.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5291286 - 02/12/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting. :thumbup:

I looked out the window for a bit and felt a lot of stillness, silence. :grin: Contemplating death in such a perspective makes it out to be very non-threatening, which is certainly towards the other end of the spectrum from constant fear. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5291405 - 02/12/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

This is the last book I read which reminds us to dis-identify with the embodied ego and with our thoughts and feelings. Instead of seeing Reality as being an embodied mind, we are to induce a figure-ground shift and see ourselves as awareness in which our body and mind exists.

An older book that also speaks to this identification with awareness is: I found Tolle's use of language to be nothing less than masterful (I was not going to spend hundreds of dollars to listen to him on stage - I'm not a personality cultist, but this book is his Opus Magnus).

I like the predominently Western flavor of these books even though the authors are not averse to mentioning Buddha or the East when appropriate. Like BE HERE NOW which said:
"After you finish the whole thing & you've vibrated your spine for years & and done your pranayama & meditated for years & years & sat in a cave & ants have eaten your arms & legs...you're right HERE again.........& what blows your mind is you were HERE all the time & it's such a cosmic joke it's so funny your struggling to get HERE."

And four pages later it says:
"There is nowhere to go & there is nothing to do & we're going to keep coming to know one another more & more free of being identified with any veil...As you find God in yourself there is God everywhere."

Well, after 30+ years of reading in this book, it seems I've only recently begun to find people who are dis-identifying with their veils, with their roles and delusions about what is Real, and I have not met but one of these people in Real life, but I seem to encounter them 'through a glass darkly,' to use St. Paul's expression, but meaning my computer monitor  :wink:. The most complex mandala that symbolizes Reality, leads one's eye to the Center, to a Singularity, to Zero dimension, to Ultimate Simplicity, to The ONE.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePhoshaman
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5292999 - 02/12/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
When I have a negative thought, I've tried to rationalize with it, I've tried to refute it, I've tried to complete it to make it whole, I've tried to just let it voice itself and not care, I've tried to admit to myself that I just have evil thoughts, so you can see I've tried working out for myself an understanding of how this works so that I can control things, but nothing helps. I get afriad that I am too far gone and the burden is too big. What is wrong with each of these ways of dealing with , and what is the thing you are supposed to do? Are you supposed to just not care whatever happens? I try that a lot and it doesn't seem to work.





You're trying wayyyyy too hard.


--------------------


Edited by Phoshaman (02/12/06 10:09 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5293321 - 02/12/06 11:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Does this take thinking about, or not thinking about? This is where I get afraid of becoming unconscious when letting go.




Try playing frisbee.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5293605 - 02/13/06 01:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Phoshaman and MushmanTheManic, lol.

I've made progress in understanding from the help in this thread, and also from reading "The Bhagavad Gita," "What the Budda Taught," and my knowledge of the bible. It's all piecing together a fuller picture.

dblaney, Wiccan_Seeker's trip report is quite similar to a few I've had. I believe the rebirth that is desired is not dependant on death first. It can come at any time, whenever a person allows it, but once someone is completely destroyed it is the easiest to let it happen. There are those who never let it happen, and never quite let themselves be fully destroyed so that they'd be at the point of no more resistance. I believe that is what schizophrenia is. Too bad that's not the approach medical "professionals" take.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5295412 - 02/13/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
And I think that if I let go I'd move ahead while they'd stay stuck where they are, 



Me too!
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Has it not occurred to you that you are not READY to die? Just because your ego thinks it should have mastery over the fear of death doesn't mean anything. You need to live a long healthy life so that the fear begins to leave naturally. Over 85% of octogenarians (those over age 80) do not have fear of death (I am trained in human development). It is a difficult path and a tragic one at that when young people die. They must prepare as best they can before dying. As BE HERE NOW put it, 'the snake must shed its skin at the rate that the skin sheds. If you 'skin' the snake, it dies.' The thinning of the ego's fear (like the thinning of one's hair, skin, memory, etc.) is a natural process.

You'd like to be 'the Buddha of Fearlessness' in what...your 20s? Wouldn't that be cooler than being a multi-millionaire in your 20s? Instead of being able to feed all your desires, you wouldn't have any desires that needed to be fed! Of course, (and I've posted on this before), it's very very difficult to live life at an early age without desires keeping you in the game of life. Fear of death means that you are still very vital, and being vital it is unnatural to want to relinquish life because having a life means living, and living means desires - even natural desires like raising a family (not unnatural desires or exaggerated desires like owning a Dodge Viper so one can pick up gold-digging strippers more easily [sorry, that's one of my exaggerated desires :blush:]).

Stop wanting to be done with your ego - that is tantamount to wanting to be done with life. It is renunciation, but it is also subtley suicidal. Renunciants are dead to the world. They are either homeless vagrants or cloistered monks. Some are incurable psychotics with pathologically decompensated egos - not enlightened beings. The Middle Way my friend, The Middle Way is The Way.





This is a very helpful post! But to me something seems 100% wrong with this world that we HAVE to make some sort of transition to higher consciousness for it to be meaningful.

I don't get much pleasure from the norms of life, except for interacting with other humans. For me, I have a desire to feel a spiritual connection, it does not have to be that I can close my eyes and in 3 seconds leave this entire universe behind and be one with nirvana [i wish though? but doing so would probably scare us shitless which is why our egos wont' "die" when we "trip"] but you know I'd like to just sit and not think. And just be in the sun and feel content like you feel when you've had a small smoke and just go out and enjoy the evening.

I'd like to at least be peaceful. That doesn't come from chasing desires..... if you go on a quest to find a beautiful flower you might overlook a splendid garden thats sitting right in front of you. You know? This is another form of letting go that is very foreign to me unless I'm on drugs. I guess its becasue I'm still pretty ugly inside, and a lot of people are really ugly and don't even recognize it.

Look at family photos. Do you see happy people? Well you aren't seeing accurately then. There is no substance behind FORCED smiles. There is nothing quite as subtly peculiar and unsettling as seeing someone who smiles and yet is completely devoid of any sort of emotions that s mile should convey.

The person who lets out a feigned laugh and holds that smile. Someoneo who says "HAh, yeah !  :cool:" when they should be saying "h ...ah.... yyyyeaaaaah  :confused: " with a monotone voice.

It's fake. You know. I do it and am learning not to... but there is nothing quite so disturbing as seeing someone who uses the language of emotion, yet is completely hollow inside.

You know? Fake, fake smiles.

Anyway..... someone posted about fear of death being paralyzing. From the trip linked to in the first post of this thread (which I just had a few days ago) I can certainly attest. The television is here to keep your desires in "check", by which I mean to keep them raging.

You can NEVER fuck all these beautiful women. You can never get laid as quickly as the guys in the axe commercials. You can never win the lottery (well maybe you can). You do not jump and down out of joy when you get a tax-refund. Hamburgers do not make you happy, hip, and cool.

This is the fake plastic smile. Look at television, it looks like this girl is at one with the universe while she's scrubbing her face to that frutise or whatever commercial that goes "ooh ooh! ooh ooh1" these people on TV are enlightened individuals. But ..... guess what. They aren't. It's bullshit.

So here we have the pieces in motion to set unrealistic expectations of happiness through consumerism, fair enough.... but think about the fear.

Look at the show 24. That's some intense shit, good programming as far as it goes I guess, but abhorrently evil message. I watched the first 3 seasons, was hooked on the first 2. This season I watched one episode, and the next day noticed that I was constantly thinkbing about what I would do if I got in these outlandish Jack Bauerish fights in shopping malls, because of how I noticed people ran through crowded escalators when chasing "terrorists." I realized that's a-fucking-nough of that.

Look at the news. Read my thread that's linked in here. The fucking news had a weekliy segment called KID KILLERS... listen very carefully to what the commercials say..... "keeping you INFORMED and SAFE." INFORMED AND SAFE. Does that register with you guys? It doesn't for many.

What it means is that if you don't watch the news, you will die. That is really 100% what it means. Think about it. Informed and safe. Keeping your family safe from crime. Keeping you alert and aware of danger. Almost every news station says something like that. 27 doppler radars creating a SAFETY SHIELD AROUND *blank* county .... think about that bullshit! Think about it!

How does playing footage of an airplane supposedly hitting a tower all day long keep us safe? Huh? How does it, please tell me how seeing the destruction of our nation as a visual mantra for days on end, over and over again.... kept us safe.

Please tell me one way that mass-media produces any feelings of tranquillity in everyone. I've been addicted to TV. It used to be where I kept the TV on even if I wasn't watching it, and if someone turned it off I felt empty and awkward as I was suddenly confronted with silence.

Some people sleep with the TV on. Some people use the TV as a sleep-aid. The average person sees 1500 commercials a day and 98% of them have detrimental, horrible, and downright evil messages.

I know this is a bit of a tangent, but a key staple in getting over anxiety is severing yourself from the television and any mass-produced media advertisements about how life should be.

Fuck that, you say seeing people die is entertainment. I say it's self-mutilation. No more. I don't think I'll voluntarily watch a violent movie again unless I've heard that it is especially compelling in some sort of artistic or altruistic way.

fuck it.

Life's no ordeal if you come to terms. Reject the system dictating the norms.

But here's the kicker. If you hate television, if you see the evils of the world and become obssessed with them. You will go absolutely crazy. To judge television is to judge the huge portion of humanity that enjoys watching it.

You cannot reject ANY concept, at all. Because we are all humans, and beneath all languages is ONE language, one mind.... to strip all the surface aways IS to have ego-loss, which is to realize the unity of all living beings.

Hitler, Bush, John Lennon, the really buff guys that you don't like seeing at the gym because they make you self-conscious, the alcohols starting fights, the stoners spreading peace, the stoners destroying their minds because they don't use properly. The ants some little child is smashing for fun. A prisoner being tortured by a man that is equally tortured inside.

We're all in it together. A key part in being able to let go is accepting right where you are, and letting go of ANY negative attributions you have about ANYONE. You could jsut as easily be someone else as you are you.

The concept of YOU is meaningless. YOu won't be "you" someday, just as sure as you haven't always been you, but you have no idea what you were before you became "you" in the first place.

I really want to see what a 3-4 year old feels about their existence before birth, surely they don't have a solid and fake identity set in place.

I dunno. So much rambling, much of it for my own benefit.

Fear is my obstacle in letting go to any spirituality or even connection with a human being. I can't even really keep eye contact with anyone, not people I know, not strangers. The best I can do is gaze into someone's eyes while I'm walking past them, because it makes me feel like I have control over the encounter and I realize that they aren't paying attention (generally) so won't really think anything of it.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (02/13/06 03:41 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5297204 - 02/13/06 09:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm deadly serious. Frisbee is an as valid path to liberation as any other, and in my opinion, extremely effective. I recommend it to everyone.  :heart:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5297614 - 02/13/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

learning to let go is something ive struggled with a lot, its one of those things where you know that when you're struggling to do it you can't but somehow knowing that doesn't seem to help and you can just go around and around in circles with your mind. im studying for an exam right now so i dont have the time to write a proper response but if you're interested to hear more of my thoughts feel free to PM me and i will get back to you. a couple quick points

1) you need to learn to surrender the little things before you can make the big surrender (for instance if you cant stop worrying about the outcome of your job interview, you're simply not going to be able to surrender your ego). also a simple affirmation such as "Oh God, be it unto me according to thy will" can be extremely helpful (say it a number of times every day). the goal is to start relating to what's beyond your ego in a positive sense so you can let go of all fear of letting go. if you concieve of yourslef as surrending to God it will be far easier than if you concieve of yourself as surrendering to some strange and unknown reality. in other words, you must have faith that surrender is the right way to go, that you will be in good hands. otherwise your ego will trick you into thinking you need it.


Edited by Deviate (02/14/06 12:02 AM)


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OfflineXUL
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5298568 - 02/14/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
You need to let go of letting go.





thats some cool advice. yea, people tell me, just forget about accomplishing ego loss and just be. I have never had ego loss.

I have been on my way to it, but didnt get there.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: XUL]
    #5302976 - 02/15/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I never realised what it was till I experienced it on shrooms.

I found that by even trying understand or comprehend what was happening - is enough to stop ego loss happening.

You literally have to just 'be',
no thoughts are involved.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Ego Death]
    #5303557 - 02/15/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

At this point in the thread three things are apparent:

1. None of you are speakingly clearly about what you wish to say.
2. The English language is incapable of expressing what "letting go" consists of.
3. The only way of letting go is to wish to control things by summoning the volition to "let go".

As Heidegger said: you cannot control control.


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OfflineHarmonic_Order
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5306095 - 02/16/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When I want to let go, I relax the muscles of my forearm. That way, whatever I caught hold of falls out of my hand. Try it.

H_O


--------------------
.oOo. Are you high? .oOo.
.oOo. You look like you're on some kind of drug .oOo.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Harmonic_Order]
    #5307220 - 02/16/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:nut:


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: eligal]
    #5307595 - 02/16/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

if you practice, you may be lucky, if when amazing things begin to happen,
you can remember
to begin to let go, and
to keep on letting go, and
to keep on beginning to let go - right in the center of the activity.

Amazing things can keep arising and passing away.
for a time, the action of letting go may become effortless and can continue of its own accord, but
soon you will need to initiate it again as distraction and associations begin to kick in.

for me the desire to wrap some experience in words or understanding is the beginning of associations, and that is the best time for me to initiate the letting go again.

sometimes I see that kind of moment as the urge to take souvenirs.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5307972 - 02/16/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

death is the final and only true test to know whether you are ready or not, to know for sure if you can let go  :uptosomething:


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: eligal]
    #5309363 - 02/17/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

applying such a test goes beyond the rights of humans.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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