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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5291080 - 02/12/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Like Casteneda's Don Juan Matus: "Death is my advisor." Besides mortality being the mother of all anxiety (Freud), it is also "always near" (J. Morrison). Death is a continual advisor to be involved as deeply as possible in each moment. This is the "impeccability" of a "Man of Knowledge" that Don Juan was all about. As my Lady's mum always says: "Tomorrow is not promised." It is not about experiencing fear, it is about being conscious. Death means limitation and like a timed test, the duration of which we are not told, we must focus in earnest, not in terror. The moment-to-moment goal is to BE in peace/fearlessness/freedom. As the Boy Scouts of America motto says: "Be Prepared."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5291103 - 02/12/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Certainly. The realization of death and its acceptance serves to bring oneself within one's being and engage in the here and now experience as much as possible. The resolution of the fear of death assists this as well, the acceptance of the fact that one's sense of identity and one's experience is not permanent turns off emotional interference and mental barriers that obstruct one from their direct perceptions and state of being.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5291275 - 02/12/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I like the Zen saying that death is merely 'an expiration that is not followed by an inspiration.' Just the simple fact of the cessation of breathing - no metaphysics - is rather comforting to my metaphysical mind. Or again, when asked what dying is like, the dying Roshi said "The sound of the squirrel, running on the roof," which is what his awareness was of at the moment of the question. It can be that simple. It is nothing to get upset about.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5291286 - 02/12/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Interesting. :thumbup:

I looked out the window for a bit and felt a lot of stillness, silence. :grin: Contemplating death in such a perspective makes it out to be very non-threatening, which is certainly towards the other end of the spectrum from constant fear. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5291405 - 02/12/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

This is the last book I read which reminds us to dis-identify with the embodied ego and with our thoughts and feelings. Instead of seeing Reality as being an embodied mind, we are to induce a figure-ground shift and see ourselves as awareness in which our body and mind exists.

An older book that also speaks to this identification with awareness is: I found Tolle's use of language to be nothing less than masterful (I was not going to spend hundreds of dollars to listen to him on stage - I'm not a personality cultist, but this book is his Opus Magnus).

I like the predominently Western flavor of these books even though the authors are not averse to mentioning Buddha or the East when appropriate. Like BE HERE NOW which said:
"After you finish the whole thing & you've vibrated your spine for years & and done your pranayama & meditated for years & years & sat in a cave & ants have eaten your arms & legs...you're right HERE again.........& what blows your mind is you were HERE all the time & it's such a cosmic joke it's so funny your struggling to get HERE."

And four pages later it says:
"There is nowhere to go & there is nothing to do & we're going to keep coming to know one another more & more free of being identified with any veil...As you find God in yourself there is God everywhere."

Well, after 30+ years of reading in this book, it seems I've only recently begun to find people who are dis-identifying with their veils, with their roles and delusions about what is Real, and I have not met but one of these people in Real life, but I seem to encounter them 'through a glass darkly,' to use St. Paul's expression, but meaning my computer monitor  :wink:. The most complex mandala that symbolizes Reality, leads one's eye to the Center, to a Singularity, to Zero dimension, to Ultimate Simplicity, to The ONE.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflinePhoshaman
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5292999 - 02/12/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
When I have a negative thought, I've tried to rationalize with it, I've tried to refute it, I've tried to complete it to make it whole, I've tried to just let it voice itself and not care, I've tried to admit to myself that I just have evil thoughts, so you can see I've tried working out for myself an understanding of how this works so that I can control things, but nothing helps. I get afriad that I am too far gone and the burden is too big. What is wrong with each of these ways of dealing with , and what is the thing you are supposed to do? Are you supposed to just not care whatever happens? I try that a lot and it doesn't seem to work.





You're trying wayyyyy too hard.


--------------------


Edited by Phoshaman (02/12/06 10:09 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5293321 - 02/12/06 11:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Does this take thinking about, or not thinking about? This is where I get afraid of becoming unconscious when letting go.




Try playing frisbee.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: How do you let go? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5293605 - 02/13/06 01:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Phoshaman and MushmanTheManic, lol.

I've made progress in understanding from the help in this thread, and also from reading "The Bhagavad Gita," "What the Budda Taught," and my knowledge of the bible. It's all piecing together a fuller picture.

dblaney, Wiccan_Seeker's trip report is quite similar to a few I've had. I believe the rebirth that is desired is not dependant on death first. It can come at any time, whenever a person allows it, but once someone is completely destroyed it is the easiest to let it happen. There are those who never let it happen, and never quite let themselves be fully destroyed so that they'd be at the point of no more resistance. I believe that is what schizophrenia is. Too bad that's not the approach medical "professionals" take.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5295412 - 02/13/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
And I think that if I let go I'd move ahead while they'd stay stuck where they are, 



Me too!
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Has it not occurred to you that you are not READY to die? Just because your ego thinks it should have mastery over the fear of death doesn't mean anything. You need to live a long healthy life so that the fear begins to leave naturally. Over 85% of octogenarians (those over age 80) do not have fear of death (I am trained in human development). It is a difficult path and a tragic one at that when young people die. They must prepare as best they can before dying. As BE HERE NOW put it, 'the snake must shed its skin at the rate that the skin sheds. If you 'skin' the snake, it dies.' The thinning of the ego's fear (like the thinning of one's hair, skin, memory, etc.) is a natural process.

You'd like to be 'the Buddha of Fearlessness' in what...your 20s? Wouldn't that be cooler than being a multi-millionaire in your 20s? Instead of being able to feed all your desires, you wouldn't have any desires that needed to be fed! Of course, (and I've posted on this before), it's very very difficult to live life at an early age without desires keeping you in the game of life. Fear of death means that you are still very vital, and being vital it is unnatural to want to relinquish life because having a life means living, and living means desires - even natural desires like raising a family (not unnatural desires or exaggerated desires like owning a Dodge Viper so one can pick up gold-digging strippers more easily [sorry, that's one of my exaggerated desires :blush:]).

Stop wanting to be done with your ego - that is tantamount to wanting to be done with life. It is renunciation, but it is also subtley suicidal. Renunciants are dead to the world. They are either homeless vagrants or cloistered monks. Some are incurable psychotics with pathologically decompensated egos - not enlightened beings. The Middle Way my friend, The Middle Way is The Way.





This is a very helpful post! But to me something seems 100% wrong with this world that we HAVE to make some sort of transition to higher consciousness for it to be meaningful.

I don't get much pleasure from the norms of life, except for interacting with other humans. For me, I have a desire to feel a spiritual connection, it does not have to be that I can close my eyes and in 3 seconds leave this entire universe behind and be one with nirvana [i wish though? but doing so would probably scare us shitless which is why our egos wont' "die" when we "trip"] but you know I'd like to just sit and not think. And just be in the sun and feel content like you feel when you've had a small smoke and just go out and enjoy the evening.

I'd like to at least be peaceful. That doesn't come from chasing desires..... if you go on a quest to find a beautiful flower you might overlook a splendid garden thats sitting right in front of you. You know? This is another form of letting go that is very foreign to me unless I'm on drugs. I guess its becasue I'm still pretty ugly inside, and a lot of people are really ugly and don't even recognize it.

Look at family photos. Do you see happy people? Well you aren't seeing accurately then. There is no substance behind FORCED smiles. There is nothing quite as subtly peculiar and unsettling as seeing someone who smiles and yet is completely devoid of any sort of emotions that s mile should convey.

The person who lets out a feigned laugh and holds that smile. Someoneo who says "HAh, yeah !  :cool:" when they should be saying "h ...ah.... yyyyeaaaaah  :confused: " with a monotone voice.

It's fake. You know. I do it and am learning not to... but there is nothing quite so disturbing as seeing someone who uses the language of emotion, yet is completely hollow inside.

You know? Fake, fake smiles.

Anyway..... someone posted about fear of death being paralyzing. From the trip linked to in the first post of this thread (which I just had a few days ago) I can certainly attest. The television is here to keep your desires in "check", by which I mean to keep them raging.

You can NEVER fuck all these beautiful women. You can never get laid as quickly as the guys in the axe commercials. You can never win the lottery (well maybe you can). You do not jump and down out of joy when you get a tax-refund. Hamburgers do not make you happy, hip, and cool.

This is the fake plastic smile. Look at television, it looks like this girl is at one with the universe while she's scrubbing her face to that frutise or whatever commercial that goes "ooh ooh! ooh ooh1" these people on TV are enlightened individuals. But ..... guess what. They aren't. It's bullshit.

So here we have the pieces in motion to set unrealistic expectations of happiness through consumerism, fair enough.... but think about the fear.

Look at the show 24. That's some intense shit, good programming as far as it goes I guess, but abhorrently evil message. I watched the first 3 seasons, was hooked on the first 2. This season I watched one episode, and the next day noticed that I was constantly thinkbing about what I would do if I got in these outlandish Jack Bauerish fights in shopping malls, because of how I noticed people ran through crowded escalators when chasing "terrorists." I realized that's a-fucking-nough of that.

Look at the news. Read my thread that's linked in here. The fucking news had a weekliy segment called KID KILLERS... listen very carefully to what the commercials say..... "keeping you INFORMED and SAFE." INFORMED AND SAFE. Does that register with you guys? It doesn't for many.

What it means is that if you don't watch the news, you will die. That is really 100% what it means. Think about it. Informed and safe. Keeping your family safe from crime. Keeping you alert and aware of danger. Almost every news station says something like that. 27 doppler radars creating a SAFETY SHIELD AROUND *blank* county .... think about that bullshit! Think about it!

How does playing footage of an airplane supposedly hitting a tower all day long keep us safe? Huh? How does it, please tell me how seeing the destruction of our nation as a visual mantra for days on end, over and over again.... kept us safe.

Please tell me one way that mass-media produces any feelings of tranquillity in everyone. I've been addicted to TV. It used to be where I kept the TV on even if I wasn't watching it, and if someone turned it off I felt empty and awkward as I was suddenly confronted with silence.

Some people sleep with the TV on. Some people use the TV as a sleep-aid. The average person sees 1500 commercials a day and 98% of them have detrimental, horrible, and downright evil messages.

I know this is a bit of a tangent, but a key staple in getting over anxiety is severing yourself from the television and any mass-produced media advertisements about how life should be.

Fuck that, you say seeing people die is entertainment. I say it's self-mutilation. No more. I don't think I'll voluntarily watch a violent movie again unless I've heard that it is especially compelling in some sort of artistic or altruistic way.

fuck it.

Life's no ordeal if you come to terms. Reject the system dictating the norms.

But here's the kicker. If you hate television, if you see the evils of the world and become obssessed with them. You will go absolutely crazy. To judge television is to judge the huge portion of humanity that enjoys watching it.

You cannot reject ANY concept, at all. Because we are all humans, and beneath all languages is ONE language, one mind.... to strip all the surface aways IS to have ego-loss, which is to realize the unity of all living beings.

Hitler, Bush, John Lennon, the really buff guys that you don't like seeing at the gym because they make you self-conscious, the alcohols starting fights, the stoners spreading peace, the stoners destroying their minds because they don't use properly. The ants some little child is smashing for fun. A prisoner being tortured by a man that is equally tortured inside.

We're all in it together. A key part in being able to let go is accepting right where you are, and letting go of ANY negative attributions you have about ANYONE. You could jsut as easily be someone else as you are you.

The concept of YOU is meaningless. YOu won't be "you" someday, just as sure as you haven't always been you, but you have no idea what you were before you became "you" in the first place.

I really want to see what a 3-4 year old feels about their existence before birth, surely they don't have a solid and fake identity set in place.

I dunno. So much rambling, much of it for my own benefit.

Fear is my obstacle in letting go to any spirituality or even connection with a human being. I can't even really keep eye contact with anyone, not people I know, not strangers. The best I can do is gaze into someone's eyes while I'm walking past them, because it makes me feel like I have control over the encounter and I realize that they aren't paying attention (generally) so won't really think anything of it.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (02/13/06 03:41 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5297204 - 02/13/06 09:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm deadly serious. Frisbee is an as valid path to liberation as any other, and in my opinion, extremely effective. I recommend it to everyone.  :heart:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5297614 - 02/13/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

learning to let go is something ive struggled with a lot, its one of those things where you know that when you're struggling to do it you can't but somehow knowing that doesn't seem to help and you can just go around and around in circles with your mind. im studying for an exam right now so i dont have the time to write a proper response but if you're interested to hear more of my thoughts feel free to PM me and i will get back to you. a couple quick points

1) you need to learn to surrender the little things before you can make the big surrender (for instance if you cant stop worrying about the outcome of your job interview, you're simply not going to be able to surrender your ego). also a simple affirmation such as "Oh God, be it unto me according to thy will" can be extremely helpful (say it a number of times every day). the goal is to start relating to what's beyond your ego in a positive sense so you can let go of all fear of letting go. if you concieve of yourslef as surrending to God it will be far easier than if you concieve of yourself as surrendering to some strange and unknown reality. in other words, you must have faith that surrender is the right way to go, that you will be in good hands. otherwise your ego will trick you into thinking you need it.


Edited by Deviate (02/14/06 12:02 AM)


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OfflineXUL
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5298568 - 02/14/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
You need to let go of letting go.





thats some cool advice. yea, people tell me, just forget about accomplishing ego loss and just be. I have never had ego loss.

I have been on my way to it, but didnt get there.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: XUL]
    #5302976 - 02/15/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I never realised what it was till I experienced it on shrooms.

I found that by even trying understand or comprehend what was happening - is enough to stop ego loss happening.

You literally have to just 'be',
no thoughts are involved.


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: How do you let go? [Re: Ego Death]
    #5303557 - 02/15/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

At this point in the thread three things are apparent:

1. None of you are speakingly clearly about what you wish to say.
2. The English language is incapable of expressing what "letting go" consists of.
3. The only way of letting go is to wish to control things by summoning the volition to "let go".

As Heidegger said: you cannot control control.


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OfflineHarmonic_Order
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5306095 - 02/16/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When I want to let go, I relax the muscles of my forearm. That way, whatever I caught hold of falls out of my hand. Try it.

H_O


--------------------
.oOo. Are you high? .oOo.
.oOo. You look like you're on some kind of drug .oOo.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: Harmonic_Order]
    #5307220 - 02/16/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:nut:


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: eligal]
    #5307595 - 02/16/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

if you practice, you may be lucky, if when amazing things begin to happen,
you can remember
to begin to let go, and
to keep on letting go, and
to keep on beginning to let go - right in the center of the activity.

Amazing things can keep arising and passing away.
for a time, the action of letting go may become effortless and can continue of its own accord, but
soon you will need to initiate it again as distraction and associations begin to kick in.

for me the desire to wrap some experience in words or understanding is the beginning of associations, and that is the best time for me to initiate the letting go again.

sometimes I see that kind of moment as the urge to take souvenirs.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisibleeligal
Noobie

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Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
Re: How do you let go? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5307972 - 02/16/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

death is the final and only true test to know whether you are ready or not, to know for sure if you can let go  :uptosomething:


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Re: How do you let go? [Re: eligal]
    #5309363 - 02/17/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

applying such a test goes beyond the rights of humans.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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