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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris?
    #5287672 - 02/10/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

With the environment heading straight down the toilet and our kids doomed to inhabiting hell on earth, should we all just drive SUV's and Ferrari's while we can?

Global warming: passing the 'tipping point'
Our special investigation reveals that critical rise in world temperatures is now unavoidable
By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
Published: 11 February 2006

A crucial global warming "tipping point" for the Earth, highlighted only last week by the British Government, has already been passed, with devastating consequences.

Research commissioned by The Independent reveals that the accumulation of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has now crossed a threshold, set down by scientists from around the world at a conference in Britain last year, beyond which really dangerous climate change is likely to be unstoppable.

The implication is that some of global warming's worst predicted effects, from destruction of ecosystems to increased hunger and water shortages for billions of people, cannot now be avoided, whatever we do. It gives considerable force to the contention by the green guru Professor James Lovelock, put forward last month in The Independent, that climate change is now past the point of no return.

The danger point we are now firmly on course for is a rise in global mean temperatures to 2 degrees above the level before the Industrial Revolution in the late 18th century.

At the moment, global mean temperatures have risen to about 0.6 degrees above the pre-industrial era - and worrying signs of climate change, such as the rapid melting of the Arctic ice in summer, are already increasingly evident. But a rise to 2 degrees would be far more serious.

By that point it is likely that the Greenland ice sheet will already have begun irreversible melting, threatening the world with a sea-level rise of several metres. Agricultural yields will have started to fall, not only in Africa but also in Europe, the US and Russia, putting up to 200 million more people at risk from hunger, and up to 2.8 billion additional people at risk of water shortages for both drinking and irrigation. The Government's conference on Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change, held at the UK Met Office in Exeter a year ago, highlighted a clear threshold in the accumulation of greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere, which should not be surpassed if the 2 degree point was to be avoided with "relatively high certainty".

This was for the concentration of CO2 and other gases such as methane and nitrous oxide, taken together in their global warming effect, to stay below 400ppm (parts per million) in CO2 terms - or in the jargon, the "equivalent concentration" of CO2 should remain below that level.

The warning was highlighted in the official report of the Exeter conference, published last week. However, an investigation by The Independent has established that the CO2 equivalent concentration, largely unnoticed by the scientific and political communities, has now risen beyond this threshold.

http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article344690.ece


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5288168 - 02/11/06 09:11 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris?

Bush says yes:

"We need an energy bill that encourages consumption."
George W. Bush
Sept. 23, 2002

:banghead:


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Registered: 10/17/03
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5288287 - 02/11/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

why the fuck would we want to drive SUVs and ferraris? i think they are fucking stupid. it kind of seems like you suggest that they are (universally?) desirable to begin with, and that the environment is the only reason to not drive them.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: exclusive58]
    #5288426 - 02/11/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

exclusive58 said:
Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris?

Bush says yes:

"We need an energy bill that encourages consumption."
George W. Bush
Sept. 23, 2002

:banghead:




Got a link for that?  I'd love to see it.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5288453 - 02/11/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

googled it in the provided quotes and got a ton of results. trenton, new jersey, date indicated.


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"I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: kilgore_trout]
    #5288462 - 02/11/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

OK so let's have it. You know the deal here.


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Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5288520 - 02/11/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, you know, Alex. The capitalists still believe the global warming thing is a silly, wild myth.

SUVs are grossly excessive and unnecessary, but I cannot tell people what to do.


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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5288724 - 02/11/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i'm running my next vehicle on used vegetable oil.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5288732 - 02/11/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Here's my new SUV:



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Invisibledownforpot
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Male
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5291452 - 02/12/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm getting a 2003 suburban. CHYEA!!!!


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5291551 - 02/12/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris?



No, only rich, heterosexual, white males.

Quote:

our kids doomed to inhabiting hell on earth



"Something else I'm getting tired of is all this stupid bullshit we have to listen to all the time about children. It's all you hear in this country, 'children', 'help the children', 'what about the children', 'save the children'. You know what I say? FUCK THE CHILDREN! Fuck em." - George Carlin


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: daimyo]
    #5291771 - 02/12/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Global warming is still one of those things given to try to explain something. There is no proof of this idea of Global Warming. In the science world it was to be prooven and/or replicated for it to hold any weight. Read STATE OF FEAR and it goes more in depth.

WB


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5291839 - 02/12/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Global warming is scientific fact. What is in dispute among reputable scientists is to what degree humans are contributing to it. Considering how much humans have changed the earth since the industrial revolution, I'd say it's likely that we have contributed a great deal to it. Global warming is going to happen with or without us, but the danger is that we may be accelerating climate change faster than ecosystems can adapt.


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: daimyo]
    #5291877 - 02/12/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Don't read State of Fear. It's shit.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


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Invisiblebukkake
Male

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5291984 - 02/12/06 04:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteBunny said:
Global warming is still one of those things given to try to explain something. There is no proof of this idea of Global Warming. In the science world it was to be prooven and/or replicated for it to hold any weight. Read STATE OF FEAR and it goes more in depth.

WB



State of Fear is fictional...


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: bukkake]
    #5292118 - 02/12/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

the story is but the references are not... they are actually data.
I am reading the HOT ZONE right now that is based on a true story but is still fictional...

Look into the signing the Leipzig Declaration in 1996

The following items of interest were quoted in the August 1997 edition of Environment News:

* A Gallup Poll found that only 17 percent of the members of the Meteorological Society and the American Geophysical Society think that the slight warming experienced in the 20th century has been the result of man-made greenhouse gas emissions ? principally CO2 from burning fossil fuels.
* Only 13 percent of the scientists responding to a recent survey conducted by Greenpeace believe catastrophic climate change will result from continuing current patterns of energy use.

Global Warming is not a fact it is an opinion. To really understand the earth warming trends you would have to look at data from a time period many many many times longer than the time data was collect and even not to long ago the accuracy of that data is highly questionable.

WB


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Gijith]
    #5292123 - 02/12/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Don't read State of Fear. It's shit.




It's not shit...not a crazy thriller either just interesting. It's the type of book some people like a lot and other people view as propaganda. There is only one way to find out.

WB


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5292140 - 02/12/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteBunny said:
Global Warming is not a fact it is an opinion.



In your own post, you give data about warming trends. Just what do you think global warming is? There's a difference between saying global warming is not caused by humans vs. saying it doesn't exist.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5292189 - 02/12/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Put me down for a Ferrari.


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Offlinerawtoxic
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5292202 - 02/12/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Might as well have a good time while we can. We're going to use the all the oil eventually might as well do it all fast possible.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: rawtoxic]
    #5293347 - 02/12/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I honestly don't give a fuck if the weather changes. I will drive a gas guzzling Escalada or a ferrari. And when the shit hits the fun, I'll have my AK ready to plunder others and keep me safe.


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: downforpot]
    #5293359 - 02/12/06 11:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not a believer in Global Warming. We didn't even keep records from back in the 1800's, we started sometime in the early 1900's, and even that was innacurate. Tell someone to go outside and test if it's windy or not isn't affective as when we started monitoring it scientifically around the 1956's and 70's, that's when the best records were recorded. There's Urban warming. They put these sensors at airports generally to tell temperature rises and monitor it, well you've got a lot of hot asphault, there are other things too that disprove that the temperature shifts of less than .5degree were not caused by actual global warming...

I can't remember what I was trying to say because I'm really stoned. It took me a long time, somewhere up by asphault is when I forgot, and had to figure out a way to get to this excuse, then gave up.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Maverick]
    #5293625 - 02/13/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DRTMaverick said:
I'm not a believer in Global Warming. We didn't even keep records from back in the 1800's, we started sometime in the early 1900's, and even that was innacurate.



Apparently you aren't aware that scientists are able to determine global temperatures from back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth. Record-keeping isn't necessary when you've got the polar ice sheets and the geological record to tell you the history of the earth's climate.


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5294060 - 02/13/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

WhiteBunny said:
Global Warming is not a fact it is an opinion.



In your own post, you give data about warming trends. Just what do you think global warming is? There's a difference between saying global warming is not caused by humans vs. saying it doesn't exist.




Global warming is a constant heating of the earth a warming trend or cycle is a temporary heating of the earth followed by a cooling trend. Global Warming is a term used to describe the belief that human man made CO2 is causing the Global warming. I doubt if you were to ask someone what Global Warming was caused by and they believed in Global Warming that they would say something other than man and/or fossil fuels.

WB


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5294735 - 02/13/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I doubt if you were to ask someone what Global Warming was caused by and they believed in Global Warming that they would say something other than man and/or fossil fuels.



On the contrary, if they were scientifically competent, they would readily admit that volcanic and solar activity contribute a great deal to it.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5295451 - 02/13/06 03:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WhiteBunny said:

Global Warming is a term used to describe the belief that human man made CO2 is causing the Global warming.

WB




So which part don't you believe?

If you don't believe that an atmosphere consisting of a mixture of gases, including CO2, is the primary way our planet maintains its temperate climate, then Visit the moon, or mars, or any other astral body that doesn't have an atmosphere. Note how fucking cold it is. The greenhouse effect is how our planet stays warm, naturally. You would be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees with this fact, although I'm sure there's someone out there on some "climate research project" funded by Exxon who would.

If you don't believe that an increased amount of C02 in the atmosphere leads to increasing average global temperature, than you don't really understand the fundamental facts about greenhouse gases. C02 particles literally "trap" heat in the earths atmoshpere instead of allowing it to escape. More C02 particles means more trapped heat.

If you don't believe that the burning of fossil fuels releases C02, than you probably failed high school chemistry. If you burn carbon, you get C02.

So I don't get what part you don't believe. Burning fossil fuels releases C02 right? And C02 goes into the atmosphere, right? And more C02 means more greenhouse gases, right? And more greenhouse gas means higher temperature, right?

I don't see how anyone can argue with this process, unless they believe science itself is nothing more than a worldwide conspiracy to take money away from oil companies.

P.S. SUV's would still be lame even if they were fuel efficient.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5295585 - 02/13/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I believe the right-wing view is any increase is completly natural and mankind has had no effect. (So capitalism can continue as it is forever)

The right-wingers on the board often refer to a "list of 17,000 scientists" who allegedly said global warming didn't exist. Unfortunately when you read the names of the "scientists" you noticed Ginger Spice was on it.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Maverick]
    #5296085 - 02/13/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not a believer in Global Warming. We didn't even keep records from back in the 1800's, we started sometime in the early 1900's, and even that was innacurate. Tell someone to go outside and test if it's windy or not isn't affective as when we started monitoring it scientifically around the 1956's and 70's, that's when the best records were recorded. There's Urban warming. They put these sensors at airports generally to tell temperature rises and monitor it, well you've got a lot of hot asphault, there are other things too that disprove that the temperature shifts of less than .5degree were not caused by actual global warming...




A prominent climatologist recently resigned from a government panel on global warming because his research showed exactly what you are talking about. His contributions to a report were edited out and replaced with more "politically friendly" conclusions (i.e. stating that global climate change is man-made) so he resigned.

He basically stated that man-made local climate change is a major problem and that global climate change is probably due to other factors, besides the fact that it cannot even be measured with good statistical significance at this point.

Anyone who says the US government is out to downplay global warming does not understand the scientific/political landscape. The US government is spending unprecedented amounts of money on global warming research for the express purpose of linking it to human factors. They do this because it is politically popular to fund the research. Any scientist will tell you that if you throw enough money into an area of research, you will generate papers and findings that you are looking for, regardless of if they are true or not.

Nowadays, half of the journal "Nature" is nothing but global warming papers. This isn't because there is no other important life-science research going on. It is because global warming is what scientists call "hot" right now (no pun intended). This means that funding is pouring in and scientists who don't usually study this area begin to flock to it. Journals then begin to publish all of these papers, blowing it up even more and making the area even hotter.

"Hot" areas of research are notorious for turning out questionable and even falsified papers (stem cells rings a bell). There was actually a scientific study done last year that proved this.


Edited by Catalysis (02/13/06 06:15 PM)


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Catalysis]
    #5297618 - 02/14/06 12:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Anyone who says the US government is out to downplay global warming does not understand the scientific/political landscape. The US government is spending unprecedented amounts of money on global warming research for the express purpose of linking it to human factors.

Are you sure about this? Wasn't there a big hullabaloo recently about the US demanding the removal of certain phrases from a climate change treaty to deny the existence of man-made global warming?

"Hot" areas of research are notorious for turning out questionable and even falsified papers (stem cells rings a bell).

That depends on the science. If the science is correct the fact that it's a "hot" area is irrelevant. I don't think there's a serious scientist on the planet who doubts that man has contributed to global warming. You usually find most of the "scientists" who deny it are being funded by oil companies.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5297730 - 02/14/06 12:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

This is a little off topic, but the SUV haters have always kind of bothered me.

First off, a lot of SUVs aren't even that bad, many of them actually have smaller engines like minivans that don't use an excessive amount of gas.

Secondly, only a small amount of pollution comes from SUVs. When you consider the number of smaller cars out there, they contribute a HUGE amount to the problem, SUVs are just somewhat worse.

Even if everyone switched to smaller cars, the difference made would be negligible. People just like to have someone else to blame, so that they can feel like they're the good guys, and that there's someone else out there who's REALLY doing wrong. That way they can feel smug and superior without really doing anything significant to help the environment... after all, it's all those SUV driver's faults, not mine.

...and no, I don't drive an SUV, the only car I drive is my mom's 1988 Mazda 323, which is pretty easy on the gas.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Phluck]
    #5297770 - 02/14/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My hatred of SUV's is much like that Hunter S Thompson quote about hustlers that you have in your sig. It's not so much the pollution that bugs me. It's the kind of people who drive them. SUV's just seem to attract rude, inconsiderate people.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5297785 - 02/14/06 12:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't know if that's really accurate though. I've only known a few people who drove SUVs, a couple of them were just regular friendly people, and one of them was the ex-fire chief in my city who now runs a firefighters museum that I helped him setup, and one of the awesomest old dudes with cool stories that I've ever met.

There are probably assholes with SUVs out there, but I don't know that they make up the majority.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlineexclusive58
illegal alien

Registered: 04/16/04
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5298130 - 02/14/06 05:36 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
My hatred of SUV's is much like that Hunter S Thompson quote about hustlers that you have in your sig.  It's not so much the pollution that bugs me.  It's the kind of people who drive them.  SUV's just seem to attract rude, inconsiderate people.




Ya, like this dude here:

Quote:

downforpot said:
I honestly don't give a fuck if the weather changes. I will drive a gas guzzling Escalada or a ferrari. And when the shit hits the fun, I'll have my AK ready to plunder others and keep me safe.




I agree with Phluck though, its true that, in the absolute, pollution coming from SUVs comes in extremely less quantities than pollution coming from other cars. But on the other hand, SUVs are on the top of the polluting pyramid (for automobiles) and the fact that they're so popular in the US shows that there's a big lack of respect for the environment and this demonstrates that caring for our biosphere is the last of worries to some. Its a very selfish attitude IMO, how people just don't give a shit about anything except the fulfillment or their personal desires. Shameful...

And SUVs in cities is a big :thumbdown:



Also, is it only in the US that some people think humans aren't responsible for the global warming and for the devastation of certain ecosystems? I mean in France pretty much nobody believes otherwise...Its just really surprising to me to see how certain people are fooling themselves...or are being (probably willingly) fooled by others, such as Exxon brainstorming groups, who of course have very deep ties with the Bush dynasty, and who come up with the ideas that attempt to refute man's responsibility in global warming.


Anyways, on a sidenote, there's a commercial for Total (the french oil company) that just started airing on TV which made me giggle, their punchline is: "For you, our energy is inexhaustible."  :smirk:


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5299491 - 02/14/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I believe the right-wing view is any increase is completly natural and mankind has had no effect. (So capitalism can continue as it is forever)

capitalism is not incompatible with protecting the environment or responding sensibly to global climate change.

our current system awards government subsidies to the fossil fuel industry and allows those who use fossil fuels to externalize much of their true cost. neither of these is how capitalism works.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: wilshire]
    #5299544 - 02/14/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
I believe the right-wing view is any increase is completly natural and mankind has had no effect. (So capitalism can continue as it is forever)

capitalism is not incompatible with protecting the environment or responding sensibly to global climate change.

our current system awards government subsidies to the fossil fuel industry and allows those who use fossil fuels to externalize much of their true cost. neither of these is how capitalism works.




Abosultely. We tweak capitalism and the law books to reward our current corporate system...we could just as easily tweak capitalism to reward a system that was based on sustainable production.

In addition, a lot of people don't realize that if the government wasn't so committed to the oil industry, there would be a lot of economic incentive to pollute less. After all, energy costs a lot of money. The technology exists to produce more energy for less money with a fraction of the pollution...and I'm not talking about nuclear power. I'm talkin bout steam, wind, solar. I'm talkin bout energy efficient natural insulation for homes and power saving lights. I'm talkin bout green design techniques instead of cutting corners when constructing new buildings. I'm talkin bout compostin. I'm talkin bout cars that run on used vegetable oil that fast food companies have to pay money to have dumped. I'm talkin about efficient, clean energy. It's not a myth, its actually the natural order of planet Earth.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineLiquid_Dimension
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300026 - 02/14/06 04:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

SUV or ferrari? neither...gimme a Buggatti Veyron please! 1001HP 16 cylinders mmm...PURE POWER.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Liquid_Dimension]
    #5300197 - 02/14/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

LiQuiD_DiMenSioN said:
SUV or ferrari? neither...gimme a Buggatti Veyron please! 1001HP 16 cylinders mmm...PURE POWER.




Well, since we're expanding the wish list, make mine black.


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5300291 - 02/14/06 06:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think there's a serious scientist on the planet who doubts that man has contributed to global warming. You usually find most of the "scientists" who deny it are being funded by oil companies.




You can sit around and tell yourself that until you are blue in the face but that won't make it true. To the contrary, many of these scientists are shunned by the government for espousing politically unpopular opinions.

If you are really interested in the arguments against global-level anthropogenic climate shifts, you can watch the below movie made by highly distinguished Canadian researchers.

http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=3

You guys even admit that global warming is politically popular. Exclusive58 even says that everyone in his country believes CO2 emmissions are responsible for global climate change in the past 20 years, even when scientific evidence cannot rule out the same factors which caused climate shifts for the past 4 billion years.

To me, it is absurd that everyone is so concerned about this when we have real problems with pollution and localized anthropogenic changes in the ecosystem which pose a far greater threat than a theory which may or may not prove to be true and may or may not wipe us out in god only knows how many thousand years.

By the way, what ever happened to the global cooling scare?


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: wilshire]
    #5301563 - 02/14/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

capitalism is not incompatible with protecting the environment or responding sensibly to global climate change.


As Einstein remarked, you cannot solve a problem with the same thinking you used to create it.

You can have capitalism or you can have a habitable planet, but you can't have both.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5301570 - 02/14/06 11:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You can have capitalism or you can have a habitable planet, but you can't have both.



False.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Catalysis]
    #5301588 - 02/15/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

To the contrary, many of these scientists are shunned by the government for espousing politically unpopular opinions.


I don't know about the government, I know they are shunned by the scientific community. When did you last hear a speech by George Bush on man-made global warming?

You guys even admit that global warming is politically popular.

I don't think it's popular among governments, because it's going to mean an enormous reduction in profits for big buisness.

far greater threat than a theory which may or may not prove to be true and may or may not wipe us out in god only knows how many thousand years.


It's a lot sooner than that. The next 50-100 years look like they'll be enough to cause worldwide devastation.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5301670 - 02/15/06 12:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You can have capitalism or you can have a habitable planet, but you can't have both.




Tell that to the people who were around Chernobyl in the communist Soviet Union.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5301770 - 02/15/06 01:04 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
You can have capitalism or you can have a habitable planet, but you can't have both.




Tell that to the people who were around Chernobyl in the communist Soviet Union.



Furthermore, tell it to these guys.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5302355 - 02/15/06 08:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I don't think it's popular among governments, because it's going to mean an enormous reduction in profits for big buisness.




I don't think that's it. It's not popular amongst governments because it would mean a massive change in lifestyle for citizens living in modern countries. What would modern society be like if we weren't able to drive very far, have products delivered to far-flung places, and our standard of living were drastically reduced? How would you like living in a society that was materially equivalent to the early 1900's?

What causes pollution is the fact that humans use a lot of stuff and a lot of energy. That computer you are using right now (which was made with all kinds of chemicals, metal, and plastic) is using energy which is polluting the environment. People in modern societies aren't going to give up their conveniences.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5302369 - 02/15/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

the only thing in this world that generates more money than something that corrects a problem, is something that creates a problem.

the burning of fossil fuels, pollution of the air and water, the raping of the earth, all of this is actually a win-win for big business and government, at least in its current state.

Think of how much it would hurt the economy if there was no reason all of a sudden to buy bottled water, hepa-filters, water filters, the entire government recycling program, etc. Do we really want to hurt our economy by or own selfish instincts to make the earth look "pretty
and smell "nice?"

</sarcasm>


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: kotik]
    #5302382 - 02/15/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That computer you are using right now (which was made with all kinds of chemicals, metal, and plastic) is using energy which is polluting the environment. People in modern societies aren't going to give up their conveniences.




that is quite a stretch, considering how invisible the amount of energy is needed for a computer, compared to heating, cooling and lighting (in the context of home use). None of that even compares to industrial use.

Although I recognize the intention of the post, everyone is to blame. True. but there are supposed to be environmental regulations that stop the problems where they start - with companies that manufacture popular technologies that generate pollution. If the companies would reduce not only their own pollution in production, but also the pollution produced by their products, then it would have an exponential effect.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5302395 - 02/15/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You can have capitalism or you can have a habitable planet, but you can't have both.

what about capitalism makes it incompatible with having a habitable planet?


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Alex213]
    #5302549 - 02/15/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ford Working On 60 MPG Truck

February 14, 2006 2:30 a.m. EST


Matthew Borghese - All Headline News Staff Writer

New York, New York (AHN) - Ford is reportedly developing a "new form of automotive propulsion," which could dramatically change the automotive landscape.

Ford is said to be developing a "Hydraulic Hybrid" for implementation in it's F-150 series truck.

According to NewTechSpy, "the hydraulic hybrid could be the greatest innovation since the internal combustion engine itself."

The new engine differs from the conventional hybrid design. Currently a "hybrid" engine's main energy comes from gasoline which recharges batteries that move the car at low speeds.

In hydraulic systems, excess energy is stored in hydraulic cylinders, which have 3 times the capacity of a nickel metal hydride battery.

Ford is set to launch the hydraulic hybrid F-150 in August, 2008.
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7002397595


if ford comes out with an F-150 that gets 60mpg in 2008, I will trade in my Dodge (11mpg).


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: kotik]
    #5303434 - 02/15/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

That computer you are using right now (which was made with all kinds of chemicals, metal, and plastic) is using energy which is polluting the environment. People in modern societies aren't going to give up their conveniences.




that is quite a stretch, considering how invisible the amount of energy is needed for a computer, compared to heating, cooling and lighting (in the context of home use). None of that even compares to industrial use.




Sure that little box you call a computer might not draw a shitload of power. But, think of the energy that was put into manufacturing that box and delivering it to market. And, you brought up a good point when you talked about the heating and cooling of homes. To do these things requires a large amount of energy.

Even the most avowed Greens amongst us use or consume stuff which causes pollution. I always find it hypocritical when they bitch about pollution yet they willingly partake in the modern conveniences which cause it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5303440 - 02/15/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I prefer to wear warm clothes around the house rather than turning the heat up.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5303452 - 02/15/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
I prefer to wear warm clothes around the house rather than turning the heat up.




You live in California. I wasn't aware that you people out there had to turn the heat up.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5303456 - 02/15/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
I prefer to wear warm clothes around the house rather than turning the heat up.




You live in California. I wasn't aware that you people out there had to turn the heat up.



It can actually get rather cold at night during the winter. Of course, it's still much better than the East Coast. Winter in California tends to be like Fall everywhere else.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5303471 - 02/15/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
It can actually get rather cold at night during the winter.




What...like 60 degrees God forbid?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5303484 - 02/15/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The low for tonight is 31 degrees.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5303495 - 02/15/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
The low for tonight is 31 degrees.




Not bad. Your low temperature rep is somewhat respectable. You still don't have shit on Pennsylvania though.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5303899 - 02/15/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sure that little box you call a computer might not draw a shitload of power. But, think of the energy that was put into manufacturing that box and delivering it to market.




yes, but at the same time consider how many steps a computer eliminates. It reduces the need for paper, travel-related pollution, and otherwise temporary items such as letters, ads, business cards, maps, etc.

Quote:

Even the most avowed Greens amongst us use or consume stuff which causes pollution. I always find it hypocritical when they bitch about pollution yet they willingly partake in the modern conveniences which cause it.




the bottom line is that we as humans look at pollution as being unnatural and bad, because it is bad for us. I have a feeling that with or without mankind and the pollution that goes along with mankind, the earth will go on spinning.

at least until we pull off some crazy nuclear winter shit that throws the entire planet off orbit or something.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineWhiteBunny
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: kotik]
    #5304041 - 02/15/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

you have to look at the atmosphere in literal terms. Lets say the atmosphere is a football field were each 1 yard is one %. Around 79% or 79 yards of this football field is just nitrogen. The rest up to the one yard line is oxygen and that last yard is other gases included CO2. The science world is trying to debt that about an inch of this football field explains changes in temperature for the world on data that really isn't that accurate in terms of the history of there earth. I mean earth is pretty damn old and we only have accurate data for a blink of time and to say you can explain something from this blink is a ridiculous statement.

WB


--------------------


Edited by WhiteBunny (02/15/06 09:28 PM)


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: WhiteBunny]
    #5304094 - 02/15/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

agreed, although scientists can usually account for causes and effects, extrapolation of theories are for the most part, throwing darts at a blurry object, in the dark, with one eye open.

Although I cannot say that its hard for me to believe that all the extreme pollution created by industry is changing the environment. And given that the environment is pretty habitable in its current state, I don't think any change from where we are at now would be that great, as much of a fan I am of change.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Should we all just drive SUV's and Ferraris? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5307271 - 02/16/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Quote:

kotik said:
Quote:

That computer you are using right now (which was made with all kinds of chemicals, metal, and plastic) is using energy which is polluting the environment. People in modern societies aren't going to give up their conveniences.




that is quite a stretch, considering how invisible the amount of energy is needed for a computer, compared to heating, cooling and lighting (in the context of home use). None of that even compares to industrial use.




Sure that little box you call a computer might not draw a shitload of power. But, think of the energy that was put into manufacturing that box and delivering it to market. And, you brought up a good point when you talked about the heating and cooling of homes. To do these things requires a large amount of energy.

Even the most avowed Greens amongst us use or consume stuff which causes pollution. I always find it hypocritical when they bitch about pollution yet they willingly partake in the modern conveniences which cause it.




While technology doesn't have us at a point where we can make abundant energy with insignificant amounts of pollution (i.e. cold fusion), green energy sources DO exist, we just don't use them. There is also incredible technology out there, such as lights and types of insulation, that drastically reduce the amounts of energy people use.

Were we as committed to making use of this technology and developing better versions of it as we were to, say, building condos in florida or putting up new walmarts, we could basically be a green country. The Ecosystem can handle pollution in small doses. It is the unbridled releasing of greenhouse gases into the air and nitrogen into the water that surpasses the ecosystem's ability to process it.

My point is this, if we were more efficient about saving energy and making use of green technology, we could live our modern lifestyle without damaging our ecosystem.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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