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Offlineagoutihead
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lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism....
    #5280833 - 02/09/06 07:12 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i just came to this realization last night...

one of their main things they pumped at the symposium was that it treats alcoholism... (maybe just so it has some grounds to argue on that it should be legal.. kinda like a scapegoat)

but what i find really interesting is that they had stated in literature that as far as hofmann knows only him and his wife have tried lsd... none of his kids.

im quite surprised he didnt want his kids to do this... but as a parent i kind of understand.

but to know your son is an alcoholic, and to have created a drug that is supposed to "cure" that disease and not give your son the treatment so that he can live (hofmanns son died at 52) i dont know... its kind of fucked up if you think about it.

any thoughts?


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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Invisibleperfectsphere

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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... *DELETED* [Re: agoutihead]
    #5280905 - 02/09/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by perfectsphere

Reason for deletion: .



Edited by perfectsphere (11/04/13 06:11 PM)


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: perfectsphere]
    #5280923 - 02/09/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Um, what if his son didn't want to take it? You guys are acting like he should have force fed his son LSD.


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5280929 - 02/09/06 08:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i think it was fairly high.. 60 70 or 80 percent... it was a very worthwhile study.

and no im not implying that he should have forced him... obviously i know nothing about the actual subject.. maybe he did try and convince him who knows... but its just an interesting topic.


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: agoutihead]
    #5280944 - 02/09/06 08:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Some people don't want to get better. Sometimes people want to drink themselves to death. It happens way too much.

No matter how much Hoffman may have wanted to help his kid, the kid may not have wanted help. Besides just because something doesn't work for someone famous doesn't mean shit. We are all different, and the situations forming things such as alcoholism can be so different that it is not funny. It seems the reason LSD and other psychedelics seem to work is that it helps those people who are clouded and know not why they are stuck in the hole of depression and boozing, see their way out of that tortuous cycle. For people who don't want to get out of it, well there is little more than nothing you can do for them. You can't change someone's mind for themselves, nuff said.


--------------------
No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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Offlineagoutihead
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: mecreateme]
    #5281012 - 02/09/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

mecreateme - your right if one isnt willing to change there is nothing anyone can do about it.


--------------------
"When I'm on LSD and hearing something that's pure rhythm, it takes me to another world and into anther brain state where I've stopped thinking and started knowing" - Kevin Herbert

"Psychedelics let you see the world through a child's eye."

"Experience the liquid realm..."

"The evolution of mankind is in the alteration of consciousness" - Dr. Albert Hofmann


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OfflineVeter
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: agoutihead]
    #5281151 - 02/09/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

LSD only works in treating alcoholism in a very controlled manner...you cannot simply give it to someone who is an alcoholic and theyll be cured...you need a psychiatrist who can guide the trip.

There are WAY too many factors to this, there is no way you can discredit anything because of this.


--------------------
Let the Demons have their place, if so, it's angels you'll create.


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: perfectsphere]
    #5281227 - 02/09/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

perfectsphere said:
Hmm.. did they give stats about the % of ppl who were 'cured' after lsd therapy? I'm pretty sure its not a given, but I'm also surprised he didn't want his kids to take it




I have the exact numbers written down somewhere, was watching it in a documentry on TV. Dont have the numbers on hand at the moment (at school right now)

But, I think the sucess rate of treating it with LSD was 50%, which is far above the 20% of Alch Anonymous, and they had something like 5,000 patients in the trial.

Note, these #'s are comming from memory, but I do have them written down at home somewhere, I'll verify once I get in.


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: kaniz]
    #5281240 - 02/09/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Also, the initial theory of LSD therapy was

"Give them LSD, they will have a horrible expierence, and then once they sober up, we'll tell them that this is what your life will be like if you keep drinking like that" - they wanted them to hit rock bottom, without the risk of death that hitting rock bottom with booze can cause.

However, they were supprised by the fact that the patients actually ended up ENJOYING the expierence, and were able to come to terms with their roots/cause of their drinking, a better sense of self-understanding, and in turn - helping to solve their alcholhism.

However, these were also done in controlled settings at hospitals/etc with trained therapists/etc doing the expirment. It wasnt 'toss a bunch of LSD at someone and send them running lose'.

I was actually supprised to hear what a big role Canada had in all of this.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: kaniz]
    #5281371 - 02/09/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You also have to take into consideration what was considered an "alcoholic" and what the definition of "success" was in treating them.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: agoutihead]
    #5281528 - 02/09/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

agoutihead said:
...................but to know your son is an alcoholic, and to have created a drug that is supposed to "cure" that disease .....



Alcoholism is no disease. It's a life choice. Some people are simply more willing make the choice to be alcoholics.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Offlinegururvishnu
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5282330 - 02/09/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
Quote:

agoutihead said:
...................but to know your son is an alcoholic, and to have created a drug that is supposed to "cure" that disease .....



Alcoholism is no disease. It's a life choice. Some people are simply more willing make the choice to be alcoholics.




Alcoholism is a disease. It is a physical change in a person's body for the worse.


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OfflineeVil_
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5282590 - 02/09/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
Alcoholism is no disease. It's a life choice. Some people are simply more willing make the choice to be alcoholics.




:thumbup:


--------------------
It's great to be here. I thank you. Ah, I've been on the road doing comedy for ten years now, so bear with me while I plaster on a fake smile and plough through this shit one more time. - Bill Hicks

<Guest> has anyone ever heard of sprinklen a freshcow pattie w dust and hangin it from a tree in cheese cloth and watering it?


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: gururvishnu]
    #5282608 - 02/09/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gururvishnu said:
Alcoholism is a disease. It is a physical change in a person's body for the worse.



This whole idea is mostly a device created by Alcoholics Anonymous to help alcoholics place blame somewhere other than squarely on there shoulders. Alcoholism is a choice that can be reversed. I know of no disease that can be stopped merely through the shear will to end them.

Don't get me wrong, I have pity for alcoholics. They have a hard road to travel, but they chose to walk down that path.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Offlineshrooma
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5283009 - 02/09/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Alcohol is a terrible disgusting drug IMO. From my experiences of of certain family members of mine drinking I will never drink alcohol. It's one of the few drugs that makes you a massive problem no only to yourself but also to everyone else around you.
Sorry if I offended anyone here I'm sure there are lots of people who enjoy a drink here and there but I just feel disgusted when I see people who are absolutely troughed. Then they can't remember how stupid they acted so they think everything was ok until they find FUCKING PISS STAINS AND SHIT STAINS ALL OVER THEM AND FUCKING LIVER PROBLEMS, VOMIT SPLASHED ALL OVER THEIR FACE AND BLOOD RUNNING DOWN THEY'RE FUCKING HEAD FROM WHERE THEY FELL, AND THEY'VE BEEN DRIBBLING ALL OVER THE PLACE LIKE A MOTHERFUCKING RETARD TRYING TO START FIGHTS WITH PEOPLE YET TRYING TO RAPE THEM AT THE SAME FUCKING TIME UNTIL FINALLY THEY"RE LIVER FAILS AND THEY LOSE ANY RESPECT THAT WAS ONCE DUE!!! Sorry


--------------------
"[More than] half the people in federal prison are there for drug offences. We're arresting half a million people a year for possessing marijuana. We're locking up kids sometimes for life for their first drug offence. We have no room in our prisons for rapists and child molesters and murderers cause we're filling them up with these non violent drug offenders." - Steven Duke, Yale Law School on 'Hooked: Illegal Drugs and How They Got That Way'
-


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: shrooma]
    #5283433 - 02/09/06 08:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

REALLY!!??
I know alcoholics who haven't raped anyone.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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InvisibleGratos
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5283435 - 02/09/06 08:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ekstaza said:
Quote:

gururvishnu said:
Alcoholism is a disease. It is a physical change in a person's body for the worse.



This whole idea is mostly a device created by Alcoholics Anonymous to help alcoholics place blame somewhere other than squarely on there shoulders. Alcoholism is a choice that can be reversed. I know of no disease that can be stopped merely through the shear will to end them.

Don't get me wrong, I have pity for alcoholics. They have a hard road to travel, but they chose to walk down that path.




Ah, but there lies the crux of their problem. No amount of shear will will keep an alchy from his drink. I used to work with them, street bum to college professor. One moment they can see their life with amazing clarity (more so then most people IME) and be absolutely convinced mind, body and soul that they absolutely must not take another drink and in the next moment all clarity and will to not drink are gone. I believe it is a mental disease. They are the most stubborn self-willful group of people (as a whole) I have ever met. I do not hold with the theory that an alchy can cure himself with self-will. Ive seen too many of these completely self-willed people try it and fail. Addiction is a real phenomenon, especially to alcohol, IMO.

EDIT: IMO alcohol is the most disgusting of drugs. It boggles the mind as to why it is legal yet psychedelics are not?!?



Edited by Gratos (02/09/06 08:59 PM)


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Gratos]
    #5283477 - 02/09/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Taking that drink is always a choice. It's no different than when I sneak a cigarette. The compulsion is there, I just need to use my better judgment. I believe firmly in personal responsibility.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5283552 - 02/09/06 09:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

but you assume choices are free.

I personally do not.

Going to high school is a choice, but why do even then most of the people that absolutely hate it stick with it rather than drop out and get their GRE?

It's hard to uproot mental loops, karma, etc.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleGratos
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5283582 - 02/09/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

What Im saying is that their judgment/willpower is non-existent when an urge to drink comes along. As an ex-smoker I understand the 'when I want a smoke' analogy. When I want to smoke I realize (after some difficulty sometimes) that I wont stop if I smoke one.

From what Ive experienced and been exposed to a drunk cannot reason his way out of drinking. Ive seen it time and time again (this is just my experience here). Reason is completely over ridden by the urge to get plastered. From what Ive read, the basis of a program such as Alcoholics Anonymous is to find something that keeps you from drinking and I see why they need something other them themselves to do it.

Hell, who knows? I once saw a chemistry professor die from cirrhosis. That was sad. Maybe he couldve stopped, maybe not. I, myself, do not believe alcoholism can be controlled by an alcoholic though.

EDIT: Some late night grammar correction


Edited by Gratos (02/09/06 09:20 PM)


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Offlinegururvishnu
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Gratos]
    #5283665 - 02/09/06 09:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The disease is in the fact that you have that physical urge. I know it can be a choice, but it physically changes your ability to make that choice.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: gururvishnu]
    #5283693 - 02/09/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I just see it much differently. If alcoholics can defend there drinking by making up so many excuses that they had to think about to come up with, then they can find reasons not to drink. I'm not saying it's not hard to do, but simply that it's possible.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.


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OfflineVeter
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Re: lsd is supposed to fight alchoholism... but one of hofmanns kids died from alcoholism.... [Re: Ekstaza]
    #5284998 - 02/10/06 08:55 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Ekstaza, I would typically agree with you, but that is like saying major depression is not a disease but a choice.
Sure, they made the choice to drink in the very first place, and they somewhat made the choice to get stuck into the cycle they have themselves in, but once they are in it, the choices are gone. Alcohol is HIGHLY addictive. These people have lost the choice to quit. They think different than you or I might, they cannot see that they shouldn't take that next drink, just as a person with major depression cannot see why their irrational thoughts are wrong. No matter how many times they hear that what they are doing is wrong, their body is telling them different. Its hard to go against everything youve ever trusted.

Alcohol is a terrible drug and should be used only in moderation. People love their egos, though, and would do just about anything to feed it. THAT is why psychedelics aren't legal.


--------------------
Let the Demons have their place, if so, it's angels you'll create.


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