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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Morales just gets better and better
    #5280687 - 02/09/06 04:22 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Refusing to back down on coca, halving his own salary to hire more teachers. Does a leader get any better than this guy?

'Coca is a way of life'

He's tackling poverty and corruption, he's the first ever indigenous Bolivian president - and then there's that jumper. No wonder they adore him at home. But elsewhere Evo Morales is not so popular because of his refusal to cut down on the production of coca, the raw material for making cocaine.

Evo Morales is standing before an adoring crowd, a garland of coca leaves draped around his neck, a straw hat layered with more coca shielding him from the searing heat of the Bolivian sun. "The fight for coca symbolises our fight for freedom," he yells. "Coca growers will continue to grow coca. There will never be zero coca."
The crowd of mainly coca growers - or cocaleros - goes wild. There are easily 20,000 people from all over the tropical region of Chapare here to welcome the new president of Bolivia, their favourite son. Only a couple of years ago, their crops - the raw material, of course, in the production of cocaine - were faced with eradication under a zero-tolerance policy intended to mollify the United States.

But any uncertainty over the future of coca was removed in December with the election of their Evo. This is the man who meets world leaders dressed in jeans and a stripy jumper, the man who has outlawed corruption in a traditionally corrupt society, the president who halved his salary on taking office so he could employ more teachers.

Morales has put Bolivia on the map. His inauguration two weeks ago has electrified Latin American politics; he is, after all, the first indigenous Bolivian - an Aymara - to hold the highest office in the land. Morales has promised to channel more of the proceeds of Bolivia's vast oil and gas reserves to his poorest people, the poorest in all South America. And he has already taken significant steps to eradicate discrimination and exploitation.

Foreign diplomats in the capital, La Paz, admit he is that rarest of things - an honest, incorruptible politician with an urgent desire to improve the lot of his people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1705476,00.html


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Alex213]
    #5280692 - 02/09/06 04:32 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Foreign diplomats in the capital, La Paz, admit he is that rarest of things - an honest, incorruptible politician with an urgent desire to improve the lot of his people.




I wouldn't go so far as to say "incorruptible". On the contrary, I would say that his support of Coca production is a prime example of corruption. He knows that the majority population in neighboring countries believes coca production to be immoral, and he knows that Bolivian growers are most certainly not growing for domestic consumption. He is attempting to aid members of other nations to break the laws of those nations and calling it "a way of life".

In reality, this makes him no better than the United States when they give money/weapons/support to non-national groups.

Legalized Coca production in Bolivia will inherently lead to lower Coca costs, and ultimately cheaper cocaine production, which will obviously not be consumed domestically. This will line the pockets of criminal organizations throughout the western world, and is likely to help finance rebels and paramilitaries throughout South America.

Now, in an ideal world, the US and Europe would have different drug policies. However, from a moral standpoint, their drug policies should be irrelevent. If the President of Bolivia is taking steps that will enable and strengthen paramilitaries and criminal organizations throughout South America and the western world, his actions are morally no better than those of the United States in the Middle East.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Economist]
    #5280706 - 02/09/06 04:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Now, in an ideal world, the US and Europe would have different drug policies.

Hang on, back up a minute..I agree with what you're saying here...so how do you get from here to saying that other countries should go along with supporting US and Europe in prohibition?

However, from a moral standpoint, their drug policies should be irrelevent

I disagree. You don't get rid of immoral laws by supporting them. There is absolutely no reason why the people of Bolivia should suffer because the US government has a fanatical and utterly deranged atitude toward certain plants. I'm not interested in cocaine but I'd be massively interested in trying the coca leaf and I'd buy coca leaves in a heartbeat. What right have the US to stop Bolivian farmers from making a living?


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Economist]
    #5281097 - 02/09/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Legalized Coca production in Bolivia will inherently lead to lower Coca costs, and ultimately cheaper cocaine production, which will obviously not be consumed domestically. This will line the pockets of criminal organizations throughout the western world, and is likely to help finance rebels and paramilitaries throughout South America.






Oh yeah, all the drug dealers I know can't wait till drugs are legal so they can go back to their real jobs :rolleyes:


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Economist]
    #5281338 - 02/09/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't see how violating an immoral law or advancing the violation of immoral laws is by any stretch itself immoral. Was a German that hid jews in his basement in violation of Nazi law doing something wrong?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5281392 - 02/09/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> Was a German that hid jews in his basement in violation of Nazi law doing something wrong?

As always, it depends upon which side of the fence you are on. Had the Nazi's won WWII, the answer you receive would be much different...


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Alex213]
    #5281434 - 02/09/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Just a general economic question about this issue, to everybody.

Does the legalization of cocoa production in Bolivia stand to create a more even distribution of wealth throughout the country, or is it going to lead to large companies controlling most of the production?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineTao
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Registered: 09/19/03
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Seuss]
    #5281437 - 02/09/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think it would be actually.


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Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:


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OfflineAncalagon
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Registered: 07/30/02
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Seuss]
    #5281441 - 02/09/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Was a German that hid jews in his basement in violation of Nazi law doing something wrong?

As always, it depends upon which side of the fence you are on. Had the Nazi's won WWII, the answer you receive would be much different...



The answer I receive might be different but that wouldn't make it the right answer. There is either something immoral about helping a jew escape extermination in defiance of codified law, or there is not.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5281463 - 02/09/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You don't get rid of immoral laws by supporting them. There is absolutely no reason why the people of Bolivia should suffer because the US government has a fanatical and utterly deranged atitude toward certain plants. I'm not interested in cocaine but I'd be massively interested in trying the coca leaf and I'd buy coca leaves in a heartbeat. What right have the US to stop Bolivian farmers from making a living?




The only reason Coca production would benefit the farmers of Bolivia is because the material is illegal in the United States. Were it legal, they probably wouldn't make any money at all (coffee sales come to mind).

This doesn't have anything to do with the "Nazi that shelters the Jew", because this isn't about protecting an innocent life. This is about making a profit by aiding others to break the law in another country.

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Oh yeah, all the drug dealers I know can't wait till drugs are legal so they can go back to their real jobs




I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. I do know that if drugs were legal, the drug dealers you know would have to find other jobs, because odds are they would be unable to compete with corporate drug sales.

If you want an example of why this would be true, check out this paper on Casinos. To give a brief synopsis of the relevant part, prior to the passage of laws making gambling legal in Las Vegas (i.e. before the late 1970s), the mob ran all the casinos. Post legalization, the mob lost their only comparative advantage (their ability to run illegal operations), and were unable to compete against casinos run by professional corporations. This ultimately led to a demobbing of the casino industry in Las Vegas.

Similarly, were drugs to be legalized, existing drug distribution networks would most likely be unable to compete with professional, likely corporate, distribution systems. So, whether they "want to" or not, were drugs legalized the dealers you know would probably be out of a job.


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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Economist]
    #5281555 - 02/09/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

This doesn't have anything to do with the "Nazi that shelters the Jew", because this isn't about protecting an innocent life. This is about making a profit by aiding others to break the law in another country.



It has everything to do with the hypothetical I raised if you look at it in terms of principle rather than as a unique case. I think you need to clarify what, exactly, you feel is immoral here. If you simply feel that breaking an immoral law is immoral, as Socrates did when he refused to flee from his death sentence, then the hypothetical I raised is absolutely applicable. You should feel the same way about one insofar as it deals with the broader principle of breaking an immoral law as you do about the other. If this is not the opinion you mean to convey, please elaborate on what you do mean.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Ancalagon]
    #5282617 - 02/09/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It has to do with relative immorality.

I am willing to bet that the exact same groups that support Morales, are also the groups that denounce actions the US takes in the Middle East with a goal towards gaining profit via oil.

In the one case, the US is meddling in foreign affairs for the express purpose of benefitting its own citizens. By not just legalizing, but encouraging, Coca production Morales is de facto meddling in the affairs of the US and Europe for the benefit of his own citizens.

Now, I have no problem with someone who believes both that both the decision by Morales to encourage Coca production AND any decisions that the US makes in the Middle East with an eye towards gaining oil rights are completely moral. What I have a problem with are that the groups which support Morales think its okay if you wish to meddle in the affairs of the US and Europe, but not okay for the reverse to happen.

PS - I also think the idea about Coca production is just silly. Once its legalized the profit will go out of the industry and the people will be no better off.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Economist]
    #5282818 - 02/09/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm just confused. It sounds like you are saying that, when it comes to decisions about the production of Coca, Morales or any leader of Bolivia should be more concerned about the US' situation than Bolivia's. Wouldn't it make more sense for Morales to be more concerned with his own country's profit than the effect this will have on America?

Maybe you could clarify this.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Offlinenonick
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Registered: 09/14/05
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5288627 - 02/11/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

if this guy is so cool why doesnt he just legalize all drugs


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: nonick]
    #5291110 - 02/12/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Coca is farmed by the idigenous peoples the poorest of the poor. to my knowledge in boliva there are no major corporations doing this work. They have already begun producing many products with coca to sell in teh country(soap, shampoo, all sorts of things cant remember alot of em though. even talk of nutritious value and that it should be in school lunches) They are currently speaking with China to export these products. Up till now there has been only a very small coca market, beyond the stimulent uses.(chewing drinking snorting)

Up till now the coca farmers have been severelly takean advantage of, a 50lb sack of leaves may make a few grand in cocaine but the farmer will get less than 50bucks. if the farmers have the option of getting a better price to sell to some soap comapany they will take it. If the drug cartels want it themselves they will to pay more for it. Its a win win for the poor people.

He knows how it is for his people, he grew up in a hut just like they did, THATS why hes a good leader.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Alex213]
    #5293213 - 02/12/06 10:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with you completely, Alex. I hate cocaine, but I'd love to try coca leaves and I think it's a great thing that Morales is standing up for freedom of choice when it comes to coca.







--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday



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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Learyfan]
    #5295267 - 02/13/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

you hate cocaine? always or have you had a bad time with the white bitch?


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: blaze2]
    #5296270 - 02/13/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"good leader"

who knows... communism always fails.

but it got me thinking about the drug war/coco plant.

could you imagine if Saudi Arabia told the US that they would not send us anymore oil unless the US stops producing beer (illegal in Saudi Arabia but still smuggled in).

And then Saudis started spraying weed killer over hops fields in Idaho??????


no wonder Morales hates us.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5297513 - 02/13/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
you hate cocaine? always or have you had a bad time with the white bitch?




It's just a bad drug, in my opinion. Besides the fact that I think the nature of cocaine is bad (judging by what happens when people use it often) , it costs WAY too much and it doesn't last very long at all.




Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
no wonder Morales hates us.




I'm surprised to hear you say this.







--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  The Apple-Glass Cyndrome - Someday



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Offlinekotik
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: Economist]
    #5300194 - 02/14/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I would say that his support of Coca production is a prime example of corruption. He knows that the majority population in neighboring countries believes coca production to be immoral, and he knows that Bolivian growers are most certainly not growing for domestic consumption. He is attempting to aid members of other nations to break the laws of those nations and calling it "a way of life".





come on man, everyone knows that somewhere, someone will be growing coca for cocaine. its worth too much to go be eradicated. look how much money is made in our country from the stuff. it has funded wars.

Morales is being real. If his country isnt growing it, another one will. At least hes educating children. of course there is a degree of corruption, otherwise he would have been dead a long time ago.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Morales just gets better and better [Re: kotik]
    #5303755 - 02/15/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree there is a reason why I call her the white bitch, but when I'm drunk as shit and I snort a nice rail for 5 bucks its a great high, and its worth it. I used to do it way to much definately spent to much on it, but its fun goddamit. cant beat that. peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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