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Microwave sterilization of grain
    #527646 -

Ok, I've been thinking about this for a little while. I was wondering if anyone thinks it'd be possible to sterilize your subtrate using a microwave?

My first idea for going about this was to steam your finch seed or grain, then put it in microwave safe jars or a spawn bag and nuke it for like 15 - 20 minutes... I'm thinking it will blow up though. But, lets say the grains do blow up but don't mess up your bag or jars... wouldn't it still contain all the nutrients and stuff and the mycelium still colonize it? Another thing I thaught of with this tek is that the microwave might dry out the substrate real bad.

My second idea just now came to me and it sounds like it might work... I had one of those eureka things when I was fixing some ramen noodles. I always put my ramen noodles in a bowl with water and nuke it instead of boiling the stuff. That made me think of putting the dry (not steamed or boiled or anything) finch seed in the microwave safe jars with water and nuking them for like 20 minutes. Just like the other way of going about making your grain jars with a pressure cooker. I was thinking that this method would help lessen the chances of drying out your substrate and it would also keep the grains from exploding and also allow you to nuke it a lot longer. Just an idea

Keep in mind that its not heat sterilization, its the radiation thats sterilizing everything. Also, radiation heats from the inside out (thats why stuff blows up) so I'm thinking that means it will work fine with getting inside grain. I'm gonna use a peanut butter jar or something later on tonight and see how well my second idea works. Assuming the grain expands and absorbs the water like I'm hoping it will, I'm going to sit the jar up and see if any contams show up... if they don't, I'll repeat the process a few more times to make sure I didn't just get lucky.

Whats everyone's thaughts on this? It'd be quicker than pressure cooking and it'd also allow people to use grain substrate without investing in a pressure cooker. Oh ya... and does anyone know if canning jars and poly-fil are microwave safe? hehe


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Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #527657 -

Ok... I forgot to mention this... I think the water will probably boil and I also know from experience that you can melt plastic containers full of water in the microwave and shatter glass, hehe. I'm still gonna experiment with this though.


--------------------
Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #527672 -

Microwaving for 20 minutes without water might cause the substrate to burn. When I microwaved substrate for 10 minutes the container started to melt after 8 minutes and a short while later the substrate started to burn because most of the water was gone.

You can microwave canning jars but the lid will have to be loose so the steam can escape, one inoculation hole will not be enough. An alternative would be to just use the ring with a filter disk and the filter disk will allow for the steam to escape. Also you will have to cover the metal with something to keep it from being exposed, otherwise you'll get arcing in the microwave. (Try the Glad "Stand & Zip" quart bags, just put them upside down over the jar - I've used this to boil a batch of mycellium/honey water).

I really doubt a microwave will do a good job on a quart jart with grain. I did a test recently with a quart jar filled with PF style substrate. I boiled it for an hour then immediately transferred it to the microwave for 5 minutes on high. As soon as it was done, I shoved a candy thermometer in the middle of the jar half way down and the temperature was under 200 degrees farenheit. This tells me that the microwaves weren't penetrating deep enough to heat the interior of the mass - but it was a lot hotter on the surface.

I have had good results (better than boiling half pint jars but still not perfect) microwaving smaller flat containers, again with the PF style substrate but never with whole grains.

Edited by evolving (01/21/02 08:57 PM)

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: ]
    #527674 -

I think that filter patches are water tight aren't they? So that would mean the air would be able to escape the jars without losing moisture I think. I didn't think this would work with larger jars or spawn bags but I figured it would be worth a try if it did work with half pint and pint size jars. I had thaught it might burn the substrate after drying it out also... thats why I considered the ramen noodle idea a eureka moment, hehe... I'm thinking it would be a while before the grain expanded and absorbed all the water, so you'd just have to keep an eye on your jars and then pull them out once the grains have expanded.

Oh ya... I use the plastic, reusable lids on my jars with 1/4" holes stuffed with poly-fil


--------------------
Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!

Edited by DarK_SavioR (01/21/02 09:16 PM)

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #527702 -

Filter patches will allow steam to escape (at least the material I have used), liquid water has a harder time. Also you should really pre-soak the grain to activate the bacterial endospores, this makes them easier to kill. Endospores can be thought of as bacteria that have gone into hibernation to survive a dry environment, in this state they are much more resistent to high heat and other environmetal conditions which might ordinarily kill them. By pre-soaking the grain, bacteria become active again and more vulnerable to our efforts to kill them

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: ]
    #527793 -

I'll try soaking the seeds for a little while first but not to the point that the grains begin to swell. That should help out some and still allow me to nuke it longer without the grains swelling and absorbing all the water and getting burnt or too dry. Thanks for mentioning that.


--------------------
Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #528003 -

what was wrong with a pressure cooker?...
the microwave has alot of other problems.. not to mention that it really does not cook very well.. ever made steak in the microwave?...


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If I made affront, I apologize.
If I made affirmation, I apologize.
I merely came to listen, came to say.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DinoMyc]
    #528319 -

Nothings wrong with a pressure cooker... the microwave would just be another alternative and save you the cost of a pressure cooker. I plan on using a pressure cooker 99.9% of the time, I just figured a microwave would be a good way of going about it for people that just grow for small personal stashes and stuff... just something to experiment with.


--------------------
Vitamin C chase, kill the taste. You can tell its nasty by the look on my face.
Ralphster44 & The FSR!
All thats stated above is for humor and a lie!!

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #528550 -

my wookie friend sometimes sterilizes pf type jars (but with whole brown rice) in the microwave for about 5-7 minutes, you just cant allow the grain the explode, thats bad.
i think you're gonna have to use a PC to use a whole grain culture the way you want... cmon, its not that hard you lazy bastard. :wink:
good luck.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: felixhigh]
    #549606 -

bad ideah. very very bad...charlie babit squeazed and pulled and hurt my neck..yeah....bad ideah...definately definately a bad ideah....yeah

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: kevman]
    #549615 -


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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #549710 -

>Keep in mind that its not heat sterilization, its the radiation
>thats sterilizing everything.

You obviouosly don?t quite know how a microwave works.
It?s the heat that emerges when the microwave radiation hits certain molecules, not radiation that sterilizes. We?re talking microwaves here, not gamma rays.

Please read how it works here:
http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/HTW/microwave_ovens.html
http://www.howstuffworks.com/microwave.htm
hthttp://www.gallawa.com/microtech/mwfaq.html


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Anno]
    #549789 -

not quite as high up on the spectrum ...hu...hu

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: DarK_SavioR]
    #23953549 -

Lost my pressure cookers some time ago, I have been using the microwave ever since. It took some time but my method is solid. Grown cubes, oyster, reishi using the microwave method. I have also made sawdust spawn, grain spawn (rye grain was a problem) and spawn with wood shavings. I can share the method if you are interested.

R

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Radley]
    #23954747 -

I'd like to know your method. I have heard of pressure cookers which are made for microwave use before.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Immutabl3]
    #23955265 -

You bumped a 14 hear old thread buddy....
The microwave things are not actually pressure cookers. They're more like as seen on TV shit



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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23955876 -

The guy above me did, which is quite impressive. I was wondering how they could be legit, certainly wouldn't have much pressure in them.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Immutabl3]
    #23956331 -

Good luck with that bootleg shit :shrug:


--------------------
Welcome to the Advanced Mycology Forum

Bod's Library    Article behind a paywall? I can try to get it for you

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23961186 -

I wouldn't worry too much about broken glass or melted plastic, most stuff out there is microwave safe.
But the grains on the other hand need constant low heat to get properly sterilized, i'm not saying it's impossible with a microwave but c'mon... a pressure cooker is worth the money and you can use it for yummy food as well.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Immutabl3]
    #23962241 -

Radley said:
I can share the method if you are interested.



I'd be very interested to see your method. Most attempts/methods I have seen are bad, and so unlikely to work. I find it odd that some are convinced it could never work, yet have seemingly never tried it themselves and have possibly made their mind up after presumably reading people making poor attempts. Or maybe they did find someone attempting it in the way they would have done it themselves.

I don't think I have ever seen a failed attempt where I wondered what went wrong.

Immutabl3 said:
I have heard of pressure cookers which are made for microwave use before.


There was one in the 80s that went to 30psi, not on the market anymore. I know there is at least one out now that goes to 4psi. Many build up minimal pressure, they are just bowls with holes in them to restrict the steam coming out. A pot with a high energy heat source and tight fitting lid will build up pressure if the steam cannot escape fast enough, same with a sealed bowl with a hole in it in the microwave.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23962306 -

what about a microwve PC


--------------------
Always up for a trade, pm me ive got lots of peyote seed, prints and chems.

Trade list
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23962426

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Theblingbling]
    #23962897 -

Theblingbling said:
what about a microwve PC


they are expensive enough and small and do not go to high pressure. They still might suit some people though, as they might use it for cooking and might not have room for a regular PC, let alone a big canner. Some people would be happy to grow a single PF jar once every couple of years -some seem blind to this or unable to accept people are not like them.

This tupperware one vents at 8psi. http://ultimatesalesorg.com/presscooktraining.pdf
This might suit a guy I know who has very limited storage space in his place, and would grow infrequently. I like using microwaves as I feel confident leaving it cooking on its own unmonitored. Moisture may be lost from jars but that is easily monitored by weighing. I would use that 8psi one for cooking rice to eat normally.


you can see a few on sale on amazon, the cheaper ones would not be proper pressure cookers. A few seem to be the exact same one with different brand names, I am pretty sure thats the 4psi one.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2/151-3834459-5396930?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=microwave+pressure+cooker

Edited by blackout (12/28/16 02:38 PM)

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23966215 -

From what I have read, a microwave PC would be useless since the steralisation process requires high temps and pressure over a long period of time in order to kill certain bacteria. I don't think I've ever microwaved food more than a few minutes. I'm waiting on my PC arriving but was just curious of this microwave option.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Immutabl3]
    #23967448 -

I love how you incorporated your stand in this in your 'title' blackout.

MICROWAVER! :wink:


--------------------

Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1

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--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..

Edited by pablokabute (12/30/16 08:00 AM)

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: pablokabute]
    #23968087 -

Immutabl3 said:
From what I have read, a microwave PC would be useless since the steralisation process requires high temps and pressure over a long period of time in order to kill certain bacteria.


One of the PCs I linked goes to 8psi, this should be find for the likes of PF jars, but you would have to monitor any moisture loss. Hot/cold spots are an issue in microwaves but inside a PC in the microwave it should be less of an issue as it will be surrounded with steam. I already often cook grains inside a tub in another tub or bag in the microwave so it is surrounded by steam and has a slight pressure build up. I also reheat & cook food using this method and it does heat far more evenly.

The likes of LC broths or agar fare better in the microwave as there are no real hot/cold spots as it can naturally stir itself as it boils -but agar can bubble up a lot. 8psi could feasibly do grains too, people just extend the time in lower psi regular pressure cookers. People will steam grains for 8 hours.


Immutabl3 said:I don't think I've ever microwaved food more than a few minutes.

most people are only reheating food in the microwave, or defrosting "ready meals" which are already cooked too, so again just defrosting and reheating. The problem is people are used to doing a frozen dinner in say 6mins, while the instructions say in an oven it might take 40mins. So people seem to think the microwave has some magical power and they then use these stupidly short times in their laughable attempts of heat treating grains etc in the microwave.

I do properly cook some foods in the microwave, e.g. rice. I will heat it until boiling which takes 2-4mins, and then lower the power and heat for 10-13mins to fully cook it. This is pretty much the exact same time I cook it for on the hob in a saucepan. But you get idiots doing a PF jar for 5mins in a microwave and think its going to be the same result as steaming for 90-120mins.

At full power a microwave might get the substances to their maximum temperature faster than an oven might, or steaming, so the overall time might be able to be reduced. e.g. if you steam a 500ml jar of LC it might take 10mins to reach 100C, while it might take 4mins in a 1000W microwave to get to boiling. From there on I would recommend heating for the same times. Stuff like PF a jars I might do for longer as there is the issue of hot/cold spots.

I have cooked grains in the microwave for hours, some people cannot seem to get their head around the fact you can do this since they are so used to reheating small amounts of food at full power for a few minutes. They would probably have no problem picturing someone slow cooking a stew for 6 hours in a wok, even though it is usually used to cook stuff in very short times.

There is some evidence of other effects in the microwave which may allow shortening of times for heat treatments (i.e. that the microwaves themselves have an effect as well as the heat generated), but I think it is far safer to stick to times people know work for steaming.


Quote:
Immutabl3 said:I'm waiting on my PC arriving but was just curious of this microwave option.

If you have a PC on the way it is all you need to use, and will be far easier to use and follow guides here. There are posters here who admitted they still are clueless about using microwaves, and are burning their tongue on microwave dinners which at the same time are still frozen in the middle. I think it is still good to be curious about using microwaves as it might give a better insight into what is really going on during heat treatments, and why we do the things we do, e.g. PCing large bags of grain for very long times.


Quote:
pablokabute said:
I love how you incorporated your stand in this in your 'title' blackout.

MICROWAVER! :wink:


:smile: I use a PC most of the time, and do a lot of combinations using both the PC and microwave. If you are a small grower like me its handy to say preheat your jars in the microwave before PCing, so the core temp is near boiling from the start. If you are a big grower this would not be as handy. I have been doing quite a bit of agar work in the microwave lately, using it as a steamer.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23968785 -

Fantastic response, thanks very much blackout. My PC arrived today, I noticed it's pressure can reach 13 PSI max. I was only planning on using the PF Tek as well as with agar after gaining more experience, would this pressure be suitable for other common/beginner teks?

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Immutabl3]
    #23972853 -

Immutabl3 said:
Fantastic response, thanks very much blackout. My PC arrived today, I noticed it's pressure can reach 13 PSI max. I was only planning on using the PF Tek as well as with agar after gaining more experience, would this pressure be suitable for other common/beginner teks?


Yes, many only steam PF jars. For grains most recipies/guidelines are based on 15psi cookers. People have used 10 or 12psi with success, just increasing the time. Instead of 90mins you might go to 110 or 120mins.

You can see info here.


so your 13psi will be in between 116 & 121C, other charts or calculators would show the temp for 13psi.

below is a thermal death time chart.



If you draw a line up at the 120C mark at the bottom you can see it is about 5minutes, meaning this particular "contaminant" is killed in 5minutes once at that temperature. While at 110C it takes nearly 40mins.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23973187 -

Hi.

I am doing another spawn run tomorrow. I will take some pictures and share in more detail, there are other growers in SA that exclusively use this method.  I have used this method with grain-spawn, wood shavings-spawn and sawdust-spawn. I have also succesfully cultivated oyster, reishi and cubes using coir/verm production blocks.

So here is the method:

Microwave Grain Tek.

Step 1.

Soak for 12 hours.

Moisture loss is an issue with the microwave, and I have failed with both dried up grains where the mycelium stops growing after a bit and wet mycelium where the surface liquid prevented growing altogether.

Step 2.

Place in a large plastic container and microwave for one minute and thirty seconds.

Step 3.

Spread out all the grains on a plastic surface so that surface moisture can evaporate, I use a refuse bag for this step, no need to wait till the grains are completely dry, small amounts of surface liquid is acceptable.

Step 4.

Pour your grains into a grow-bag, fold in the bottom edges (so it can stand up) and fold the top of the plastic bag twice over. 

Microwave for 10 minutes.

Step 5.

I remove the bags immediately allowing steam to escape from the opening. After some steam escaped the plastic bag will start vacuum sealing itself.

There we go.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Radley]
    #23974041 -

If that works I could consider it a pure fluke. You do not even mention the amount of grains, with the amount of grain people typically use in bags after just 10mins it might not even have reached 100C, especially as you do not even mix them. Unless you microwave is unsually high power.

I hope nobody tries this, and if they do I hope they post back here when it fails to warn off others.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23974064 -

blackout said:
I hope nobody tries this, and if they do I hope they post back here when it fails to warn off others.


whatever man, there's people all over the world that make grain spawn by steaming 12-24hrs at 0 psi.  I can't say I recommend it , but it does work in some contexts.  I think you might be taking this a bit too seriously.  EM radiation probably is a lot different for bacteria than radiant heat as well.


--------------------
Fiery Fungi (like us on faeboo)

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: drake89]
    #23978690 -

Correct, I did not explain the detail, it was, however, an overview. Given your pessimistic nature, I wouldn't recommend doing it. But education, in the end, will set you free.

J Am Dent Assoc. 1985 Feb;110(2):194-8.
Microwave sterilization.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Radley]
    #23978749 -

Give steam engines another shot at being effective for moving trains around the country. That's the same pessimism I hear when people say microwaves are stupid, they are.


--------------------
Welcome to the Advanced Mycology Forum

Bod's Library    Article behind a paywall? I can try to get it for you

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23979559 -

drake89 said:
blackout said:
I hope nobody tries this, and if they do I hope they post back here when it fails to warn off others.


whatever man,


can you please be a bit clearer here. I am advising people not to bother trying this, I have done enough microwave experimention to think this will not work. Are you advising people to try it? I don't want people fucking up and then blaming you for recommending they try it, if you have doubts. Your comment could be taken as a disagreement and therefore seen as a go-ahead to try it.

You have a TC tag so presumably a few grows under your belt, its people like you I want to hear from when I said
blackout said:
maybe they did find someone attempting it in the way they would have done it themselves.
.


So would you give the thumbs up for this proposed method?

Quote:
drake89 said:EM radiation probably is a lot different for bacteria than radiant heat as well.


I covered this, IMO its best to err on the side of caution.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23980866 -

I'm just saying YMMV and you shouldn't just knock something outright because it seems silly.  Obviously nobody's going to grow a whole shit load of mushrooms with microwaved spawn, but I'm sure you could manage a few jars here and there.


--------------------
Fiery Fungi (like us on faeboo)

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: drake89]
    #23983907 -

drake89 said:
I'm just saying YMMV and you shouldn't just knock something outright because it seems silly.


I am not saying microwave sterilization does not work. I am one of the few who strongly support experimentation with it. I have had plenty of successful grows using microwaves.

I do want to "knock this outright" as it is "silly", as I said there is not even a mention of how much grain to use.

You brought up steaming for 12-24hours, you will see plenty of people agreeing it will work, RR was running a mushroom far with similar treatment. If you have heard of anyone supporting or doing similar to what Radley posted then please share it.

Edited by blackout (01/05/17 01:59 PM)

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #23991604 -

Do you lose nutrients with MW? Have nuked substrates without problems.

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: Radley]
    #28039388 -

Would like to know your method for substrate/ grain sterilization if you would be so kind as to share it with me. Thanks and have a great dsy- Al- Algreen5001@protonmail.com

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Re: Microwave sterilization of grain [Re: blackout]
    #28348171 -

blackout said:



I'd be very interested to see your method. Most attempts/methods I have seen are bad, and so unlikely to work. I find it odd that some are convinced it could never work, yet have seemingly never tried it themselves and have possibly made their mind up after presumably reading people making poor attempts.


The internet in a nutshell.  It's anonymity coupled with people's desire to reply to everything—just fucking reply even if they can't offer anything to the topic. 

Choose not to reply.  You can choose not to post anything.  Nothing is an option.

Don't point out the irony or you're worse.

Edited by cornertrippa (06/05/23 12:14 PM)

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