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Invisibleeligal
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Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5268611 - 02/06/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

now, this is just an assumption/possibility, or actually just a thought (and I'm afraid of getting shot down for even suggesting this) but,

is there anything, deep down inside you that has been bothering you? maybe some deep childhood experiences? when you were a child was there something about how people perceived you or your friends or family by how they looked? and it possibly might have scarred you?

in the past you have made comments about how angry it makes you when images are imposed on individuals by society, especially the sexual images.

i have the feeling that there is something this is related to, probably from childhood. i think you need to look deep inside yourself and be honest with yourself. look at how you view the world, and the things about the world which might scare you.

please don't get angry or anything, but be honest with us! or at least be honest with yourself.

BTW, a good exercise you might want to try is to sit down somewhere quiet and peaceful, and write or type all the things about the world and society you don't like. all the things you disagree with. and all the things that make you angry. write as much as you can, take all the time you need and all the time you want.
then look over it, read everything you wrote.
what does it say?


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: eligal]
    #5268689 - 02/06/06 07:42 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'm going to draw upon what eligal has said and state that what is generally a good idea before deciding on a course of action like this is to possibly consult a therapist, just to make sure that your desire to do such a thing isn't merely a response to a subconscious problem that is bothering your psyche. Because if that were the case, then once you were to overcome such a problem you'd probably regret the loss of your breasts and they would serve only as both a physical and emotional scar left over from the problem.

Assuming that there isn't an emotional problem... perhaps it is wise to consult an elder, someone you respect for their wisdom, and whom you trust. Ask them what they think about the whole thing. They'll probably give you some useful feedback. Perhaps, given said feedback, you may have a change of heart.

Whatever you do, don't rush into this... you can't get your boobs back once it's been done. The closest available option then would be bags of saline.

Coming from a man, I'll warn you that a flat chest looks horrible on any human no matter what gender. A woman whose breasts have been removed will look equally as ugly as a man with no pectoral muscle mass (which I assume is what you would resemble after a total removal of your breasts, except you would also have a scar there too).


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5268781 - 02/06/06 08:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

would you still go, on the ladies room?
WC?

:smile:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5268881 - 02/06/06 09:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Hi Ellemysh.

I don't think ANY form of unnecessary surgery is a good idea, period.

This statement has nothing to do with what I think of you or your ideas. It has to do with common sense.

Common sense and my life experience tell ME that our bodies are too fragile to fuck with. I will never let anyone cut me with a surgical knife without a rationally sound reason that I can logically understand or deduce. (is that a word?)

There are PLENTY of possible bad outcomes to just about ANY surgery.

--

I see you're really on a roll with this idea... and I think that's all the more reason you REALLY need to stop and check yourself again.

The more enthusiastic we are about a concept, the less likely we are to HONESTLY rethink it.

I have no reason to WANT to persuade you any which way besides towards what will serve you and your well-being. This isn't about "what I think of you"... there's a big difference between someone forming an opinion of you and people reaching out their arms to try and help you understand that what you're suggesting may not be in YOUR best interest.

We love you just the way you are... why can't you? :confused:

If you've truly realized your "true self" to be our collective consciousness, don't you also see that the collective consciousness, completely void of thought, does not harbor any opinion at all of how you are "supposed to be"?

I think you're slipping back into an ego trap... the "you" that wants this is still your ego. You seem to think it is the eternal consciousness that you've identified with in the past, but I don't think it is.

Please, just consider what I've said...  :heart:


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OfflineShdwstr
FSRCanada
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Registered: 02/17/01
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5268896 - 02/06/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
I want to erase all aspect of sexuality from myself. I don't want someone to be able to look at me and tell if I'm a boy or girl.
For one thing, in societies mind, I am canceling out the most obvious thing that makes me female. It sickens me to think of how people fixate on breasts, like they're something so special, like the breast is what makes a woman.
I don't want to play that game anymore. I "quit" being a female, since it's obvious I will never measure up to the standards we impose on one another with gender.





Sounds like your letting the opinions of society infuence your desision more than you might think. You might want to try to seperate what everyone else percieves and thinks from your own inner feelings before making such a life changing desision, and believe me... every aspect of your life will change. That kind of seperation is not an easy task.
We are who we are... surgery may change your appearance of gender, but you are still You!
No surgery can change that.

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best of luck!


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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
Spiral staircasetechnician
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Last seen: 17 years, 1 month
Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5268945 - 02/06/06 10:24 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'll save you about ten paragraphs and just say:

You know you should not do that shit, that is just fucking nuts, and I'm quite sure you would regret it if you do..

No mutilation!

You are! :gd_icon:

(Or: Even society is right about a few things. One of them is that breasts are great!!! :smile:)

Keep yours!  :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
:orly:



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InvisibleDmonikal
Bareback up inthis neden
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: Microcosmatrix]
    #5268985 - 02/06/06 10:50 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Listen to the song "The fragile". May it give you strength.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: Dmonikal]
    #5269797 - 02/06/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I often times find myself wishing that I were a woman and that I had my foreskin.

So I can kind of relate with feeling that your body isn't right with who you really are. I feel extremely incomplete being circumcised and it can get me feeling really down and almost "raped" sometimes....

For me though I have a rampant and burning desire for sexual fulfillment..... and I feel like women have the better end all things considered, the way they function, the sensitivity they have, and the complete antithesis of sensitivity I have from being cut.

So yeah.... that's about all I can really say.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #5270258 - 02/06/06 04:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Hey Jacques :heart:

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:

I think you're slipping back into an ego trap... the "you" that wants this is still your ego. You seem to think it is the eternal consciousness that you've identified with in the past, but I don't think it is.

Please, just consider what I've said...  :heart:




It might be my ego talking.  It's just that...okay, recently (within the past six-eight months) I've had a realization.  I was going to keep it private but many people seem to think I am doing this for other people, so I'm trying to help you understand my motivations.  Well...part of my realization is that I'd be reborn as anything or anyone of my choosing, anything I want to experience.  So you see, I'm writing this book of mine so that I can reincarnate into it, I think that's important.  But I've become impatient.  As crazy as this sounds, I have a desire to become one of my characters, actually, not just a desire, I AM one of them, (in a way).  And I've been wondering what makes this particular character so appealing, and I've realized it's because we're one another, so I identify with it.  IT, yes, it doesn't have a gender.  So maybe you can see where this is going.  I'd like to remove my breasts so that I can be more like this particular character in my head...THAT is the image of Self I was talking about, but maybe it is more of an aspect of Self, not the Self itself if there is ego involved...and there could be.  This particular character isn't the most humble. 

I don't know what gives me this compulsion, but I know that more and more I am seeing things about myself and reality, that are important to me.  So you see, I feel in a sense I am playing a game, and that breasts or no breasts doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things. I feel like I should just have fun, and it's fun for me to "be" someone else (multiple someone's) in the parallel reality that I write about. 

So I've probably just made myself sound even more like a freak, but whatever, I don't care about that anymore.  All I know is that since I've been listening to my SELF (or whatever IT IS I've been communicating with) I've been a lot happier and at peace inside.  I know it sounds ABSURD to some of you to be considering this.  To a small portion of me it sounds crazy too.  But I've learned not to listen to that judgemental side anymore.  I should just do what I feel led to do. 

And that's what I'm figuring out, if in fact I'm being led to do this.  The fact that I'm even considering it makes me wonder if I've been led to this spot, right now, to make that decision.

If I do go through with it, I won't have the money for several more months anyway. 

:tongue:I'm just trying to make myself understood, not sure if it worked this time though.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: eligal]
    #5270407 - 02/06/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

eligal said:
now, this is just an assumption/possibility, or actually just a thought (and I'm afraid of getting shot down for even suggesting this) but,




No one will get shot down in this thread. I really do appreciate every reply, even the unsupportive and brutally honest ones. They're valuable too, and I should hear them.

Quote:



in the past you have made comments about how angry it makes you when images are imposed on individuals by society, especially the sexual images.

i have the feeling that there is something this is related to, probably from childhood.




Thought-provoking...I can't think of anything in particular... It's just that in my parent's house growing up...women and men are given strictly defined roles, through religion. For example, I once told my dad I wanted to be a paster, and he told me I could never do that because "God doesn't choose women to lead." And I wasn't allowed to have male friends because "I was a lady."

Even as a little kid, that sounded fishy. And time and time again, as I grew up, I realized I wasn't the type of girl my parents wanted. But I also wasn't allowed to do the things my brothers did (I have 4 brothers). I also had a hard time choosing friends. I was too rowdy and messy to play with the girls and too demure and aloof to kick it with the guys.

So I've always just been "in-between" and that's how I've come to see myself, someone who is always "in-between."

I guess I'd like to make it physically apparant.


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InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
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Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5270859 - 02/06/06 06:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You should probably talk to a psychologist first, see if you have any issues. You don't want to resolve the issues after the fact, as by then your breasts will already be gone, and it would be a shame if you cut off your breasts because of a temporary neurosis. After all, better to be cautious with an irreversible and unnecessary (physically, anyway) surgery than to jump into it and be a miserable 30 or 40 years down the line because of your rash youth.

But hell, if that's what you really want, go ahead. I'm pretty much apathetic to most things people do, but I never could get my mind around the transgender attitude.

Have you thought about what would happen if you broke up with your husband? How you would get a new mate if you have all these radical surgeries?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: Ravus]
    #5271008 - 02/06/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

After all, better to be cautious with an irreversible and unnecessary (physically, anyway) surgery than to jump into it and be a miserable 30 or 40 years down the line because of your rash youth.




Thanks for the reminder...there is a chance I could just be obsessing right now, but I don't know, I've felt this way for an awfully long time. Honestly, I think I'd rather be a 90 yr old with no breasts then a 90 yr old with breasts. I suspect a lot of people would agree.

Quote:

Have you thought about what would happen if you broke up with your husband? How you would get a new mate if you have all these radical surgeries?




I highly doubt there will be another person in my life if things go that sour with my hubby. But to answer your question...I probably wouldn't be looking for one.


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OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5271181 - 02/06/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Elle, you might find people to talk to, and relate with in the archives of the BME and could definately talk to many people who have modified their bodies in very extreme ways on their community page IAM (however, it requires a somewhat exclusive membership)

There are many people who experience extreme feelings of discontent being as they are born. Encyclopedia - Marylin manson brought the idea of Androgeny to the front lines of the media, and Genesis P.Orridge (who is transforming himself to look alike his wife) amongst others, feels that abolishment of sex is one step closer to god.

Perhaps im way out of step here, but i just wanted to let you know that i understand and have talked with alot of people who have done drastic things in order to acheive their desired body. I havent read the whole thread, but i do somewhat understand and accept what your going through - if you ever need to talk.


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.


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InvisibleLiz
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5271251 - 02/06/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think you would deeply regret making this decision.

Do you ever intend on having children?  You would be unable to breastfeed, and that's a huge deal.  Also, there are the risks involved as with any surgery, and something could go terribly wrong. 

I think that you're one of the most loving, sweet people I know, but to be completely blunt, you sound like you've gone off the deep end a bit...though I'm sure that's not the case...I just want you to stop and think about 10 years from now or so. 

As a fellow girl, my tits bother me from time to time.  They're big, they make my back hurt sometimes, and I don't like bras.  But I would never cut them off. 

Just my 2 cents.  :heart:


--------------------
Remember, remember the fifth of November
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.




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OfflineDarkFluFFy
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: Liz]
    #5271338 - 02/06/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Dont get rid of your breast.. just dont..


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5271431 - 02/06/06 09:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

EllemyshShade said:
Hey Jacques :heart:

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:

I think you're slipping back into an ego trap... the "you" that wants this is still your ego. You seem to think it is the eternal consciousness that you've identified with in the past, but I don't think it is.

Please, just consider what I've said...  :heart:




It might be my ego talking.  It's just that...okay, recently (within the past six-eight months) I've had a realization.  I was going to keep it private but many people seem to think I am doing this for other people, so I'm trying to help you understand my motivations.  Well...part of my realization is that I'd be reborn as anything or anyone of my choosing, anything I want to experience.  So you see, I'm writing this book of mine so that I can reincarnate into it, I think that's important.  But I've become impatient.  As crazy as this sounds, I have a desire to become one of my characters, actually, not just a desire, I AM one of them, (in a way).  And I've been wondering what makes this particular character so appealing, and I've realized it's because we're one another, so I identify with it.  IT, yes, it doesn't have a gender.  So maybe you can see where this is going.  I'd like to remove my breasts so that I can be more like this particular character in my head...THAT is the image of Self I was talking about, but maybe it is more of an aspect of Self, not the Self itself if there is ego involved...and there could be.  This particular character isn't the most humble. 

I don't know what gives me this compulsion, but I know that more and more I am seeing things about myself and reality, that are important to me.  So you see, I feel in a sense I am playing a game, and that breasts or no breasts doesn't really matter in the larger scheme of things. I feel like I should just have fun, and it's fun for me to "be" someone else (multiple someone's) in the parallel reality that I write about. 

So I've probably just made myself sound even more like a freak, but whatever, I don't care about that anymore.  All I know is that since I've been listening to my SELF (or whatever IT IS I've been communicating with) I've been a lot happier and at peace inside.  I know it sounds ABSURD to some of you to be considering this.  To a small portion of me it sounds crazy too.  But I've learned not to listen to that judgemental side anymore.  I should just do what I feel led to do. 

And that's what I'm figuring out, if in fact I'm being led to do this.  The fact that I'm even considering it makes me wonder if I've been led to this spot, right now, to make that decision.

If I do go through with it, I won't have the money for several more months anyway. 

:tongue:I'm just trying to make myself understood, not sure if it worked this time though.




I'm sorry to say this to you, but that appears to be a delusional fantasy. One that could stand to do you harm. Delusions aren't healthy. There's no "except"  or "but" or "maybe" about that rule, either. Delusions are unhealthy and they cannot be made healthy. At best they do a little bit of harm and don't get worse. At worse they lead to a detachment from reality, an obsession with the delusion, and all sorts of nasty stuff.

If a delusion has become so important to you that you are contemplating getting surgery to feed it, then you need to talk to a professional about this. This is a serious concern.

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're going to want to spend that money on a psychological professional instead of a surgical one.

Also, just as a disclaimer, don't think that since you're not crazy you don't need a psychologist. All people could benefit greatly from the help of a psychologist from time to time. Right now may very well be one of those times for you.

Please don't think me wrong and choose not to consult a psychologist, this may be important.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: Liz]
    #5271451 - 02/06/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks Ifallapart for your reply...I value your opinion. You bring up a good point (and several others have also) about childbearing. It's not that big of a priority for me, but Kevin desires offspring. I don't think pregnancy or rearing a child will be a joyful event and I don't think I'd make a good parent but I know Kevin will. If he is adament about having his father experience and won't adopt, I'll have to wait to get boob surgury after the child, because I agree that breastfeeding is healthiest.

The other night my father-in-law made a crack about how if Kevin "wants to keep me busy" he could see about making a Kevin Jr. I know he was kidding but that offended me...like because I am married and I'm almost to my mid-twenties (just turned 23) I'm EXPECTED to have children soon. That bothers me.

Anyway, I'm pretty tired of thinking about this now, so I'm just going to forget I have breasts until I have the money to remove them, in which case I will re-evaluate the situation. I don't want to end up regretting the removal of my breasts but I also am curious about what life would be like without them, how it would effect how I feel about myself, and if that would make being in my earthly body less stressful for my soul.

Based on that last sentence, I suspect they will go eventually. Maybe I'll spend half my life with breasts and then half my life without them.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: Konnrade]
    #5271454 - 02/06/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

How do you know a delusion is a delusion?


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InvisibleLiz
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5271475 - 02/06/06 09:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Just from meeting you once, I know that you would make an excellent mother.  You love radiates around a room.  So do your breasts  :wink:  Seriously, think long and hard about not doing it...I really do think you would regret it to some degree, at least at some point. 

Feel free to PM me ANYTIME if you want to talk further  :heart:


--------------------
Remember, remember the fifth of November
The gunpowder treason and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.




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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Removing my breasts [Re: MOTH]
    #5271529 - 02/06/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'd like to point out to you that your willingness to take drastic action in order to physically manifest a mental picture of yourself bears a lot of resemblance to certain eating disorders.

we all have complexes. But when you do something that is outside the boundaries of what people in your situation normally do, you are stepping over the line from 'complex' to 'disorder'. Easy there.

my advice is to eat a lot of painkillers or ecstacy and really come to terms with the way you were made. Love yourself for who you are. Sure, we can make little adjustments, but you have to draw lines somewhere. There is a big difference between, for instance, a new haircut and a major unnecessary surgery.

What you decide is none of my business and doesn't really have any effect on me one way or the other. Which is exactly why you should realize that I and everyone else here is speaking from a desire to look out for you. This isnt a political debate where people get attached to their opinions. These people are trying to convince you not to do this because they care about you and don't want you to do something you could regret later on. You haven't even lived a quarter of your life yet. Are you sure you want an irreversible treatment? You could be a completely different person in 5 or 10 years. Your age really isn't the time to be making decisions that will effect the rest of your life.

anyway, I say you should definitely wait a couple years and if you still feel the same way then maybe take the idea more seriously. I hate to say it, but members of your sex tend to be impulsive and sensational. At your age, the brain still isn't fully developed and hormones are still a huge factor in your behavior. Don't be a victim to your biology in this way. Sorry to be frank.


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