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Offlinewilshire
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is meat necessary?
    #5257214 - 02/02/06 09:11 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

are there things in meat you can't get elsewhere?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: wilshire]
    #5257234 - 02/02/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I have heard that it is possible to get everything you need from plants....it's just really fucking expensive though.


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Offlinesoylent_green
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5257640 - 02/02/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

its not expencive at all! you just have to know a little about cooking, and have to be willing to try new things!

the one thing that meat has that would be hard to find is your B12.
B12 aids in the making of new blood cells, for women this is expecally important because we have to go though menstration every month. so you really really want that B12!
(you would end up becomming aniemic without it)
but that wonderful little soy plant seems to have it all.
there are all kinds of fake meat products out there, and no there not that expencive. yes you have to spend a little more on fresh veggies, but its really not that big of a difference once you get the hang of it.
and if you cant get around to cooking up some veggie burgers, or TVP, just grab a big glass of soy milk and you'll be good.
you kinda of learn to love it :P

good luck!


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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: wilshire]
    #5257768 - 02/02/06 11:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You don't need meat to live, but what a sad existence it would be without it. Without it you will never look healthy, be normal, or be trusted into a position of power.

Be careful of that soy stuff if you're a guy - Click Me


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineWillieTomg
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: daimyo]
    #5257892 - 02/03/06 12:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

daimyo said:
You don't need meat to live, but what a sad existence it would be without it.




My food philosophy in a nutshell. Me starving, or choking down a block of tofu won't bring the animal back to life. I might as well enjoy the nutrient goodness it's flesh offers me.

Oh, and I make sure to buy ORGANIC meat every chance I get. I have some scruples about what enters my mouth y'know...


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Battles of wits are impossible with the unarmed.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: WillieTomg]
    #5257974 - 02/03/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

WillieTomg said:

Oh, and I make sure to buy ORGANIC meat every chance I get.  I have some scruples about what enters my mouth y'know...




for me its an issue of ingesting steroids and antibiotics with meat. Organic and hunted meat is good. :smile:


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: wilshire]
    #5258079 - 02/03/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Soylent Green is right.

I think Iron is a mineral you will also become deficient in with a no meat diet.


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: gregorio]
    #5258213 - 02/03/06 03:05 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

hmm, i believe my mom told me that there were one or two things that were in meat and there was very little of it in plants. so vegetarians do get it but not enough... i just cant remember what it/they were.... lol, sorry.

also i think all or atleast the noticable amounts of creatine are only found in the muscles of animals.

so technically you can live a long healthy life as a vegetarian, just that, in my opinion from what ive read and heard, you should eat a little more than you usually would, so as to make sure youre getting enough of what you need. :thumbup:

vegans are a different story.... :thumbdown:


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: wilshire]
    #5258306 - 02/03/06 05:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
are there things in meat you can't get elsewhere?




No.

As said before, meat contains B12. However, a previous meat eater can retain vitamin B12 stores that will not be depleted for 20-30 years. Vegetarians, young children, women, and especially pregnant and lactating woman need to be careful to get enough B12. The RDA of B12 for adults is 2.4 micrograms daily.

Non meat Sources of B12: tempeh, miso, seaweed, algae, spirulina are all thought to contain high amounts, although this varies greatly depending on many factors. Nutritional Yeast, (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) often labeled as a vegetarian support formula, is a food yeast grown on molasses formula and has a cheesy taste, contains high amount of B12 and often be eaten by those sensitive to other types of yeast. Another source is B12 fortified cereal.. read the label. There is also B12 fortified soy milk, meat analogues, and of course.. vitamin B12 supplements. If you eat eggs, milk, or yogurt.. there is another source. However, many foods are already supplemented with B12, so it is not hard at all to get the proper amount.

One of the most important things, if you are not eating meat.. is to get complete proteins in your diet. Proteins are composed of amino acids. The body produces 12 amino acids on its own, the other 9 you must get from your diet. A food containing all 9 amino acids is considered having "complete protein". Most meats contain complete proteins. Most protein from vegetables contains all 9 amino acids, but 1 or 2 may be low in a particular food compared with protein from animal sources. Beans however, are rich sources of all essential amino acids.

However, protein is easy to get. Our society eats way TOO MUCH protein.. the average person only needs, and can only process.. about 40-50 grams of protein a day or less. Unless you are an athlete or bodybuilder of some kind, your body does not really need more than that. And it is EASY to get 50 grams of proetin a day. There are MANY foods rich in protein.. such as

* Cereals and grains - wheat, rye, corn, rice, pasta...
* Leafy green vegetables, including spinach
* Legumes - beans, lentils, peas, peanuts
* Nuts - almonds, walnuts, cashews...
* Seaweed - kelp, spirulina...
* Seeds - sesame, sunflower...
* Soy products - tofu, tempeh, soy milk...
* Vegetables - Brussel sprouts, potatoes, yuca
* Eggs
* Cheese
* Milk
* Yogurt

f you want to be absolutely certain that you are getting enough protein, you should eat food combinations which form a complete protein, such as:

* Legumes + seeds
* Legumes + nuts
* Legumes + dairy
* Grains + legumes
* Grains + dairy

Chances are you already eat complete proteins without even trying. Here are some tasty and healthy complete protein combinations:

* Beans on toast
* Cereal/muesli with milk
* Corn and beans
* Granola with yogurt
* Hummus and pita bread
* Nut butter with milk or whole grain bread
* Pasta with beans
* Pasta with cheese (e.g., lasagne, macaroni and cheese)
* Rice and beans, peas, or lentils
* Rice with milk (rice pudding)
* Split pea soup with whole grain or seeded crackers or bread
* Tortillas with refried beans
* Veggie burgers on bread

Note that these combinations don't necessarily have to be eaten at the same time; you can eat one several hours after the other and still benefit from the complete protein.

The most important thing, is that you eat a variety of foods. Don't eat the same thing day after day.

Animal meat does have complete protein, and B12, but also contains large quantities of uric acid, a waste product of protein metabolism. When you work your muscles for an extended period.. that "burn" you feel is the secretion of uric acid, which is quickly metabolized as you rest. Animal meats contain large amounts of uric acid. When uric acid precipitates it can cause kidney stones or gout. Excess buildups in the body (from meat-eating) are at least partially responsible for heart disease, kidney failure, obesity, etc.

Quote:


gregorio said:
I think Iron is a mineral you will also become deficient in with a no meat diet.




This is incorrect. Iron can be easily obtained from a very wide variety of foods. The consumption of Vitamin C also enhances the body's ability to absorb iron from your diet.

Many (most) cereals are already supplemented with iron. Read the label.
Beans, whole grains, spinach, and dried fruits have a significant amount of iron.
As does broccoli, green beans, lima beans, beets, peas, potatoes (with the skin), watermelon, dates, prunes, pizza, oatmeal, spaghetti, brown rice, wheat, sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, soy products, chickpeas, asparagus, molasses..

Disregard these things saying soy lowers testosterone in men. For one, it's half propaganda by companies trying to sell their protein products, second.. even MASSIVE soy consumption does not significantly reduce testosterone levels. If soy is your only source of protein, then I feel sorry for you. However, even if this is the case, you would have to eat rediculous amounts of soy protein as your only source, and it would not even have a noticeable effect on testosterone levels. As with anything, moderation is key... and so is diversity. Get your protein from many sources. It is not advised to feed infants soy formula as their source of nutrition however.

In fact, soy consumption can significantly reduce your chance for prostate cancer...



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: Shroomism]
    #5258318 - 02/03/06 05:38 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

From one of the links that daimyo provided...

Quote:

Re: Can too much Soy lower Testosterone levels?

There is no evidence that the consumption of soy, which contains
estrogenic compounds known as isoflavones, will cause you to "lose
testosterone". Humans have been consuming soy as a source of protein for
thousands of years, particularly in southeast Asian populations.


The primary issue of concern at present is HOW MUCH soy to consume to
prevent/treat prostate cancer. The fact of the matter is, we just don't
know the answer, because the necessary clinical trials in humans have not
been conducted. The evidence to date is from population studies, i.e.,
observing the dietary habits of populations which consume high amounts of
soy (e.g. Japan) and noting a lower incidence of prostate cancer. In the
case of Japan, it has been noted that, upon autopsy, Japanese men still have
prostate lesions, but they are MUCH SMALLER--not having progressed to a
clinically evident state which would pose a problem. This would indicate
that something in the diet is preventing the GROWTH of prostate tumors, and
this has been shown in animal studies with soy compounds. Exposing prostate
cancer cells in culture to isolate components from soy (isoflavones and
protease inhibitors) can significantly reduce prostate cancer cell growth.
Also, in animals, soy has been shown to inhibit the growth of prostate cancer.

So, what is needed is a clinical trial in men at high risk for prostate
cancer (i.g., elevated PSA levels) or who have been diagnosed prostate
cancer. Such a trial is ongoing at the University of Alabama at Birmingham
under the direction of Dr. Stephen Barnes, but it is not yet finished.
However, the men in the study are consuming 20 mg/day of soy protein isolate
which contains 20 mg of isoflavones--not an extremely high amount and a
level that can easily be obtained through dietary means. A list of foods
(per 3.5 ounce serving) has the folowing amount of isoflavones:

green soybeans = 135.4 mg
roasted soybeans = 162.5
tofu = 33.7
tempeh = 62.5
textured vegetable protein = 138.2

I think that incorporating moderate amounts of soy protein into your diet is
a wise decision.

Clare M. Hasler, Ph.D.




http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/archives/experts/health/1997/0610.html

and here's another one - http://www.csmc.edu/3421.html

You'll notice that most of the sites talking about soy lowering testosterone, are the ones trying to sell you a product. As always, moderation is key. It's not healthy to eat ANYTHING in extreme excess.


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InvisibleFungusMan
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: Shroomism]
    #5258380 - 02/03/06 06:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

All I can add, is that I was a "flexitarian" for 4 months. I ate meat once every 2 weeks. I will say that after eating redmeat, I would get horny as hell. So, in conclusion, fuck giving up meat. We were meant to eat plants AND meat. It shows in our teeth.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: Shroomism]
    #5258382 - 02/03/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I don't buy that whole body-builder myth that soy lowers your testosterone. I drink soy milk and soy supplements like a madman (because I work out and I need protein). My arms are twice as big as they used to be, I've put on 10-15 pounds in muscle, and my voice hasn't gotten high or anything.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: FungusMan]
    #5258397 - 02/03/06 06:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Let it be known that although I know all this shit, I still eat meat. Just not a lot.
It's just easier and more readily available sometimes. When I am offered a meal with meat in it.. who the hell am I to turn down free food? I do however, try to avoid red meats as much as possible.. and eat more lean meats and fish.
And yeah, meat makes you horny.

Exactly Randall.. exactly.


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OfflineCaptain Loafy McPoopdick
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: wilshire]
    #5258402 - 02/03/06 06:49 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Mr. T says meat does a body good. Mr. T also thinks you a foo if you don't eat meat


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: Captain Loafy McPoopdick]
    #5259075 - 02/03/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Is Mr. T wrong about anything? I think not.


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #5259309 - 02/03/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

There is at least one clinical trial finding a reduction of testosterone with a high soy diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...l=pubmed_docsum

You can debate over "how much" or "significant" the reductions were.

Another study showing BOTH positive and negative effects of high soy protein diets.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...l=pubmed_docsum

The issue is debateable.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinekotik
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: badchad]
    #5259355 - 02/03/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

yes you have to spend a little more on fresh veggies, but its really not that big of a difference once you get the hang of it.




how i wish that were true... I am very careful with what I eat, but lately I have been so busy at school, I haven't had time to get a part-time, and honestly the fresh and organic foods are so expensive i can only eat maybe one meal per day, as opposed to a full 3 meals with snacks and juice (obviously not 100% juice, which I love...)

:frown:

honestly, its about finding a happy balance.  get just enough cheap food to stay full, and just enough healthy food to have enough for rent (or whatever).


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: kotik]
    #5259705 - 02/03/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I find if i buy everything fresh, everday, i can eat great all day if i prepare my food for the day at home for $10 or under.

If your shopping with convenience in mind you will pay heavily for it.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: PDU]
    #5259839 - 02/03/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

that sounds about accurate. however i don't have the time, space or equipment to be cooking fresh things all day. its understandable though, having something prepared for you fresh will always cost more than something that was prepared a month ago, and just needs to be nuked and put on toasted bread...


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: kotik]
    #5259994 - 02/03/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

kinda off subject a bit but does anyone else think wal-mart's meat hardly qualifies as such in the first place?

it tastes fucking weird as hell, especially the steaks.....


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: leery11]
    #5260244 - 02/03/06 06:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

They make it from cows that are fed recycled plastic trash bags.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: leery11]
    #5260538 - 02/03/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And the way that they grind up their meat for hamburgers....it looks like little worms.  :tongue:


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Invisibleeligal
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: gregorio]
    #5260633 - 02/03/06 08:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

it is worms  :lipsrsealed:


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."



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OfflineJaimie
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Re: is meat necessary? [Re: wilshire]
    #5267049 - 02/05/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You won't die without it.  :wink:


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Sitting in the silent twilight rapture
Could it be too hard to capture
This velvet moment of serenity



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