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OfflineFraggin
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Sudden Realization about moisture.
    #5254411 - 02/02/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

When becoming acclimated to the use of a pressure cooker, I experimented on some WBS jars as to not waste my precious verm and brf. So, I followed the tek that involves rinseing and soaking of the wbs. (24 hour soak) Followed by another rinse, then a simmer for 20 minutes.
I loaded my jars down with wbs about 3/4 way full, and added a bit of water. The damn wbs expanded so much after pc'ing, the jars were packed. So, I thought instantly that I put too much water in the jars.
Well, I left 3 to use as control jars just to see if my PC techniques resulted in any contams.
Being ready to now do my verm/BRF jars, I was damn certain to no have them too moist. I followed the 2:1:1 rule, and mixed the verm water and brf together. Being a bit confused about field capacity, I did what I thought was the right thing. I took my verm/brf mixter out of it's bowl a handfull at a time, and squeezed it like I was squeezing juice out of a lemon. (until no more water came out) Then chuked it into another bowl and mixed it around well, then added to my jars.
After I inoculated my verm/brf jars the next morning, I had a bit of spore soloution left, so I inoculate on of my overly packed overly saturated WBS test jars just for shits and giggles.

Well, That WBS jar was done days ago and most of my verm/brf jars are only 50% colonized and seemed to have stalled even after removing foil from the lid and turning them upside down.

So, my sudden realization is that getting the correct moisture content in your jars requires a bit of practice at first.


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Offline_OttO_
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: Fraggin]
    #5254419 - 02/02/06 09:06 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Grain also just colonises a LOT faster.


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Offlineonetime
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: _OttO_]
    #5254469 - 02/02/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A qt jar of grain will be done in 8-14 days. A 1/2 pint of brf will be done in about two weeks plus.


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: onetime]
    #5254542 - 02/02/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Hmmm. If the grain (WBS) colonizes faster, would it be safe to assume that WBS Flour would colonize faster?


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Offlinejamman
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: Fraggin]
    #5255571 - 02/02/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Your problem with WBS was that you added water to the jars after following Doc's tek. The grains already soaked up water during the 24hr soak and especially the simmering step.


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InvisiblePremedman1
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: Fraggin]
    #5255601 - 02/02/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Fraggin said:
Hmmm. If the grain (WBS) colonizes faster, would it be safe to assume that WBS Flour would colonize faster?



No. The advantages of WBS over BRF is the consistency of the substrate and the ease of getting the proper moisture content. It's light and airy, not tightly packed, allowing the mycellium to move through the subs faster and easier. If you grind the WBS, it will pack tightly, slowing myc growth. If growth did prove to be faster than BRF, the results would be minimal.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: Premedman1]
    #5255854 - 02/02/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Field capacity has nothing to do with grains. It is a measure of moisture in casing and compost mixes. Grains require a totally different method of measuring moisture. Read and study the teks friend. It will take a few weeks, but well worth the effort.
RR


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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5255925 - 02/02/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Right. But my realization is that getting proper moisture content with pf tek ver/brf jars seems to be tricky.


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OfflineRemainRandom50
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: Fraggin]
    #5256288 - 02/02/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

wbs is a very fast colonizer, thus why many people do it for bulk grows and etc.


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Offlinedjsage420
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: RemainRandom50]
    #5256312 - 02/02/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The only thing faster than wbs that I have tried are poo cakes.....


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: djsage420]
    #5256512 - 02/02/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

FYI WBS is much slower colonizing than rye (noticeably!) And I must also reiterate "Read and study the teks friends. It will take a few weeks, but well worth the effort"!!!! GL and have fun


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Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
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Offlineonetime
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: jamman]
    #5256689 - 02/02/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

jamman said:
Your problem with WBS was that you added water to the jars after following Doc's tek. The grains already soaked up water during the 24hr soak and especially the simmering step.




GRAIN WILL NOT SOAK UP MUCH WATER DURING THE SOAK!! this is uber important any one who has ever read any thing about grain teks would know this. Soaking is to germinate ENDOSPORES to make them weak so that they die in the pressure cooker. Water is added to grain when you simmer it.


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Invisiblemusher_420
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: onetime]
    #5256887 - 02/02/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Grain WILL soak up ENOUGH water at room temperature to be colonized by the mycellium. This is perfect for if you intend to spawn the WBS. (The best use of WBS anyways.)
I NEVER simmer my WBS. It works fine.

Simmering is suggested if you plan to directly fruit the WBS.


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Edited by musher_420 (02/02/06 08:10 PM)


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Offlinelardnar
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: onetime]
    #5257195 - 02/02/06 09:08 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

onetime said:
GRAIN WILL NOT SOAK UP MUCH WATER DURING THE SOAK!! this is uber important any one who has ever read any thing about grain teks would know this. Soaking is to germinate ENDOSPORES to make them weak so that they die in the pressure cooker. Water is added to grain when you simmer it.




you can use moist horse poo as a small moisture buffer in your jars, just don't shake it too hard or the poo splats on the jar


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Offline_OttO_
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: onetime]
    #5257286 - 02/02/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

onetime said:
GRAIN WILL NOT SOAK UP MUCH WATER DURING THE SOAK!! this is uber important any one who has ever read any thing about grain teks would know this. Soaking is to germinate ENDOSPORES to make them weak so that they die in the pressure cooker. Water is added to grain when you simmer it.




Where do you get this information from? Lots and Lots of people only soak, and have perfect results.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: _OttO_]
    #5257315 - 02/02/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

_OttO_ said:
Quote:

onetime said:
GRAIN WILL NOT SOAK UP MUCH WATER DURING THE SOAK!! this is uber important any one who has ever read any thing about grain teks would know this. Soaking is to germinate ENDOSPORES to make them weak so that they die in the pressure cooker. Water is added to grain when you simmer it.




Where do you get this information from? Lots and Lots of people only soak, and have perfect results.



Agreed.
Germinating endospores is just a side benefit but not necessary.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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Offlineonetime
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: hyphae]
    #5257697 - 02/02/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/favlinke...er=&postmarker=
http://www.shroomery.org/index.php/par/26004

here mostly I suposse I am a "dick" as eariler called becouse of this post. It seems that wbs is mixed thoughts on weather or not to simmer. I don't see the nutritional value of wbs. I like things with subtance and gerth. although of what millet bread would look or taste like. I like rye. It seems the irc people do things differant than the poeple at the fourms. I always seen millet as a strange seed. It seems to get wet but still looks like a seed. When you cook rye I dought that you can ever get it to dry the same. and with millet that stuff just seems to dry up the same as befor. The ones I ahve seem to have some sort of outter shell too that always was werid to me. I mean if the brids dont eat the shell then it must not be usfull. I think that I am just a dick. In generall I try and help but fuck it. It seems that there are a millon ways to do thing around and no one go about them the same way. I think that is why there is so much confuseion and idiot posts like mine. The problem is that life is long and boreing and we or at leas I are aferaid to die becouse of the unkown. So We wait and grow shrooms to past the time and think and have fun. But if the christains are right then this is the ultiment sin eating the forbidin fruit so no matter how nice of a person you are will you still get to heven. I mean no one can even remember how long ago that we ate the fruit some where 30-250,000 years ago. and we still eat it. Mushrooms seem to give the christains a head start that will be nearly impossible to catch up to. Although one could also say that mush is gods gift to us to remind us of what the world was befor we desided to turn our backs on the only person that ever loved us. All this is asumeing the christains are right and the chatolics really did change the mushroom to a apple. From what I remember it was a rotting tree with azures growig on it. but its hard to reach the memories incoded into my dna, so i can't say for certin.


EDIT= hyphae what are you speaking about? " Germinating endospores is just a side benefit but not necessary. " I was talking about simmering and some one said to soak. both teks soak. it seems.


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Offlinexaxphaanes
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: onetime]
    #5257866 - 02/03/06 12:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

all i know is when i simmered i had horribly wet grains that contamed even when i tried 3 times then i just soak and whoaaa... no contams i believe simmering is not necessary and should be avoided.


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Offlineonetime
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: xaxphaanes]
    #5257879 - 02/03/06 12:14 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I think it depends on the grains I need to stop generalizeing them. Rye yes. wbs no. Its really bad how the main site has gotten its hard to find any thing any more. It seems things are missing from it too.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: onetime]
    #5258335 - 02/03/06 05:56 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

onetime said:
EDIT= hyphae what are you speaking about? " Germinating endospores is just a side benefit but not necessary. " I was talking about simmering and some one said to soak. both teks soak. it seems.



Soaking for a period of time germinates endospores that are then killed during PCing (a good thing). I have done many a jar/bag without ever soaking they all colonize just fine and once colonized are very resistant to contams.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflineMisterMyco
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: onetime]
    #5258338 - 02/03/06 06:00 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

onetime said:
GRAIN WILL NOT SOAK UP MUCH WATER DURING THE SOAK!! this is uber important any one who has ever read any thing about grain teks would know this. Soaking is to germinate ENDOSPORES to make them weak so that they die in the pressure cooker. Water is added to grain when you simmer it.




Sorry, untrue. One of the first steps in making your own beer, a hobby I partake of, is malting the grains. Basically, you soak the harvested, dried grains in water so that the seeds begin to germinate, just a little bit. Because of this action, new starches and sugars are produced in the seed. It also hydrates the seeds to about 80%, which is great for mushrooms. Soak your seed in water for a day, rinse it off, then soak another day and they'll be fine.

Their are so many ways to get WBS to the right consistency, it's amazing that people screw them up. You can just simmer for 20 minutes, simmer then soak, etc. Most techniques work, but don't give bad advice by telling someone NOT to do something that does work.


--------------------
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OfflineFraggin
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: MisterMyco]
    #5258474 - 02/03/06 08:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I have tried both methods.
1.Soak, Simmer, put in jars PC
2.Soak, Simmer, put in jars, Addmorewater, PC
3.Soak, put in jars, add more water, pc
4.put in jars, add water, pc

The best method for making a good wbs jar (that I was able to shake) was methods 3 and 4.(and able to crumble easily)

Method 1 was ok, but took more work and time.
Method 2 colonized superfast, but the consistencey of the substrate was mush. Would have made a better cake.


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Offlinekilgore_trout
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: Fraggin]
    #5258524 - 02/03/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i like to oven dry my grains, weigh them, and then compare the end drained weight to the dry weight to determine moisture content. this will tell you how much to add if you just want to add water to the grain and cook. i like to soak, no simmer. i soak until the weight is correct for the moisture % i want.


works GREAT


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Invisibleagar
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: _OttO_]
    #5258767 - 02/03/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

All the time, I see numerous questions about how long should I soak - WBS - or - this -or- that grain, or various combinations of grains.

The function of soaking any grain, is to allow it to absorb it?s maximum natural capacity of moisture, without germinating the seed, or allowing it to rot.

12 hours works sometimes, 24 hours works, so does 36 hours.

The point of this post is - TIME isn?t all that important.

The amount of moisture absorbed by the grains - IS.

HOW YOU CAN TELL WHEN WBS/GRAINS HAVE ABSORBED MAXIMUM MOISTURE.

As any dry WBS/grain absorbs moisture, it expands in size.

When it STOPS expanding, it has absorbed it?s approximate maximum natural moisture capacity.

Some grains absorb moisture much faster than others, due to the type, and hardness of their hull, as well as the size of individual grains.

Naturally, mixtures of differing WBS/grains in the same soak container, expand at differing rates.

A general rule of thumb is that all dry WBS/grains - as they absorb moisture - expand in size 20 to 30 percent. Then stop, because they are fully hydrated .

WHAT THIS MEANS IS: If you are going to soak WBS/grains to hydrate them.

Fill a container 2/3rds, to ? full of the dry WBS/grain, then add enough water to cover them. Then watch the WBS/grain mixture over time (inspect after 5 or 6 hours).

If you only added enough water to just cover the WBS/grains, you will note - as they expand. The WBS/grains will enlarge, pushing itself up above the previous surface water level in the container.

Add more water, so the WBS/grains remain submerged (exclusive of floaters).

Once the WBS/grain has completely stopped expanding. It has reached its approximate natural moisture retention capacity.

Soaking it longer, does no harm. So long as it doesn?t germinate, begin to badly ferment, or rot.

SO, THERE YOU HAVE IT.

THE ANSWER TO THE OFTEN ASKED PROVERBIAL QUESTION OF HOW LONG TO SOAK WBS/GRAINS IS?????.. NO SET TIME.

SOAK, (AT LEAST)--- UNTIL THE WBS/GRAIN COMPLETLY STOPS EXPANDING (which generally ranges from 12 to 36 hours under normal room temperature conditions).

Experience has taught me this rule of thumb.

By filling a soak container 2/3rds to ? full of dry WBS/grains, then adding water enough to almost fill the container. Once the WBS/grain content has expanded to the point the container is nearly FULL & the content stops expanding any appreciable amount. It is at or very near to being fully hydrated. However, I allow it to soak it a few hours longer, to insure it is.



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OfflineTygerClaw
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Re: Sudden Realization about moisture. [Re: agar]
    #5258930 - 02/03/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Agar, you are awesome ^_^. That has to be the best explaination of soaking there is.

BTW, great avatar as well ^_^


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