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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Managers
#5251833 - 02/01/06 04:33 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago) |
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I have often wondered what makes people want to manage other people? I used to believe that people want to manage because they have useful skills and want to be of service. But this has not been my experience of people that want to manager or be in charge of other humans. With all the evidence in I'm tending toward believing that most all manager types have inferiority complexes and feel powerless. They often are of low character and weak. Take a look at Enron. Take a look at Politics. Take a look around you.
What cha all think?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
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I am a computer programmer contractor. it used to be lines or time for money. then this guy asked me to do too much, so I got him to hire some people, well I did the hiring too charged him by the time and now they work for me, but they work for him.
So I am a manager not really, but really.
someone's got to do it.
Actually the work rules. figuring out what the work is or should be, and having the best clue about that is my refuge in any conflict.
my plans consider the others' abilities and past performance everyone works in their own space time continuum. less like a team than a bag of snails. but we make slow steady progress.
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Quote:
I have often wondered what makes people want to manage other people?

It pays more.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Guess I want to look a little bit deeper than "the work". I do know some who do it for the money but there is a personality type. I could have made more money and I chose not to.
The American Indians ( I read) in general felt that it was injurious to the spirit to work for another. It was a kind of slavery. To work for the good of the tribe or family was a motivator. But not to be a boss or have a boss.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Recall Zimbardo's Stanford prison experiment? People Power
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Managers [Re: spud]
#5251949 - 02/01/06 05:00 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago) |
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That brings up the question of what real power is. The weak soul IMO seeks power over others. The strong soul seeks power over the self.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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JacquesCousteau
Being.


Registered: 06/10/03
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Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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I'm considering a managerial position because the pay for the position below it kind of sucks...
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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There were 70 respondents. Zimbardo and his team of professionals selected 24 whom they deemed to be the most psychologically stable and healthy.
The group was divided in half at random into an equal group of "prisoners" and "guards". This division was decided by random coin tosses.
The overwhelming majority of the guards displayed extreme Sadistic behavior. If your hypothesis is correct, that means that the overwhelming majority of society has a weak soul, since the experiment choose the variables in a well representable manner.
Call me an optimist, but I like to believe that there is a deeper underlying cause, something which transcends having a "weak soul".
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
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Would you choose to be a manager if pay was not an object?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
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Quote:
Icelander said: Would you choose to be a manager if pay was not an object?
I sure as heck wouldn't. The stress one endures as a manager would drive one insane, without the monetary incentive.
Even with the incentive, I could never picture myself as a manager. A teacher, yes; which I guess one could argue is a manager in a sense...?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
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Re: Managers [Re: spud]
#5252033 - 02/01/06 05:18 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago) |
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I would not choose it a certain type of work would choose me I just would aquiesce and continue work is just one of the forms of work one has to do.
there is that whole rolling outta bed in the morning thing and hauling off to where something can be done and picking up the vittles etc.etc.etc. one must manage
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Managers [Re: spud]
#5252041 - 02/01/06 05:20 PM (18 years, 15 hours ago) |
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A teacher does not have to be a manager.
I agree about being a manager. There are other incentives besides money and some I have mentioned. There is a prestige factor also. It makes us feel important and above the crowd.
I developed a little saying after years of being involved in Managerial disputes as a staff Representative of the company where I work. "The bottom is the top." . I saw and see so much weakness of character on the management side of things I came to respect the average wage slave more than any manager. They often were of a more confident character. Often not. But I have rarely met a manager who has the character to govern with integrity. I do know of one though. But he's not your average human at all.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Negative publicity will attract much more attention than will positive publicity - just look at the daily news. It's easy to fall under the stereotypical notion that managers are overpaid people with too much time on their hands that snicker and mingle with other administrative figures, play golf all day and play mind-games with everybody as portrayed in movies, sitcoms, etc. Let us not forget that such media-portrayals employ the technique of exaggeration for the sake of entertainment and drama.
In reality, most managers [at least, in the business world, i.e, retails, industrials, commercials, financials] put in 60 hr work weeks, on a GOOD week - much like one particular fellow with whom I am acquainted, and is a store manager of Lowes, a nationwide retail business. And from what he's told me, it doesn't get any easier when you move up, to the District Manager, nor to the Regional Manager, nor to the Corporate Manager, and not even to the position of the CEO. This is one of the reasons why such positions pay quite lucratively - because in reality, not very many people actually want to deal with that. It takes a certain kind of temperament, just as being a good actor requires a certain kind of temperament.
Personally, I agree with Jacques. I would have no problem going for a managerial position - hell, I'd shoot for the sky - as I value productivity and profitability - and I certainly don't mind prestige on the side as well, just as I wouldn't mind having a girlfriend with nice tits.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
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If you become a manager maybe you can bribe the girl with big tits. Just dangle the salary increase in front of her. Managers have perks.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs


Registered: 12/02/05
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Some can whish to become managers for many reasons. Yes it can be from a mental problem they have, considering theh this could be a way to feel "in power", some for the money, some cause they really feel they have somrthing to show, some for more then one reason. The thing is it shouldn't be generalised. But I thnk MOST want to become managers for all the wrong reasons, and the ones with the true abilities are bein swallowed by the others. Every culture has it's "managers" only they act different. While one are dictators, others eveolved on the spiritual side and became spiritual leaders. It's just the multi-faced nature of things. Where the same thing is good, bad, boring, funny and so on simultanously, from differnt points of wiew. Depends on what kind of managers you're talking about. The type of manager we all know is....
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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WoodsCall
own it


Registered: 12/06/04
Posts: 1,486
Loc: eye of the beerholder
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I became a reatail manager (actually I'm technically a dept head or supervisor) for the sole purpose of learning more at my job. I simply get bored. After about a year's worth of work in any given department, I feel I have mastered most aspects of it and wish to move on to another area. I finally found an area of work that I relatively enjoy, and to move up gave me a greater chance to put my mind to use in many different manners.
I currently have 14 people under me, and for the most part they seem to respect me. I teach them new ways of implementing things, I'm organized, and I don't point my finger until I get all the facts. If they ask me a question, before I say "I don't know," I try to find the answer. I have a great crew, except for the few stragglers who don't get paid enough to do the job, and therefore feel they shouldn't have to work as hard.
For me, though, I must say I do hate delegating. I do it, but it just isn't my forte. I prefer to work with others to help them develop a skillset, but I do not enjoy giving explicit directions and making sure my employees follow through. I've been working on developing a team approach to delegating, but in a corporate heirarchy, I have many hurdles to jump.
When it comes down to it, I DO NOT want to become salaried management. I value my sanity, and am content with the money I make. There are many more things in life worth living than being a true slave to my job.
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Live free or die.
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chodamunky
Cheers!

Registered: 02/28/02
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Loc: sailing the seas of chees...
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Some managers like the fact that for 8 + hours of the day they can tell you what to do, it gives them a sense of being important and they feel they can talk down on you. But if you ever met this person on the street and they behaved in some condescending waylike they do in the office, their ass would be beat. It reminds me of Pink Floyd, in the video of Another Brick.... the school teacher took out his anger and psychological problems on the kids, but then at home he got beat by his fat wife...
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Irdamage
Autobot

Registered: 11/19/05
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Managers can be both very good, and very bad depending on the person, the type of work, and the ammount of stress on a perticular day. Theres alot of factors that go into these attitudes. In my younger days I would be required to take positions under managers, and to be quite honest many of them were decent people who never tried to "bully" anyone in the office. Merely asking them to do the ocasional task when it came up. However alot of employees took this the wrong way and absolutely despised these managers simply for the fact that they were appointed to be in charge. I really dont think these kind of people realize that while a manager guides your work progress it doesnt necessarily mean there a snarling power hungry control freak.
To be fair though, there are many prickish managers who do love to abuse power. These are the ones who usually get nothing done because they encounter alot of resistance. Short story time:
Back in the day I was with a small team doing ramedial computer processing tasks for hours on end (really simple admin stuff :/). With an older manager in his fifties. The man was a prick to no end, he treated everyone like crap and tried to get us in shit at any opertunity that could be found. So one day I was clocked out, and made sure my replacement for the evening had been brought up to speed on what was going on. And just as I was heading out the door the manager stopped me and said "Where the fuck do you think your going?! Youve got to stay here and finish the invoices!" I responded with "Ive set my replacement onto it and he knows how to do it all, it will be ready by 6am tommorrow morning *or whatever the actual time was when it was due* and I've told him to call me on my private line if he needs any help." So he indignantly looks at me and sais "Your not going anywhere tonight unless youve got another job lined up that I don't know about." And remembering what George Carlin once said about not taking shit from managers. I responded with "Correction. Im going home because ive just put in a 16 hour shift, which is apernalty more hours than youve worked in the last 3 days. And If youde like me to quit and leave your ass hanging with a deadline and no workers, than by all means say the word." He didn't hassle me again after that...but was fired 2 months afterwards for trying to attack a female employee (as in literally hit her). But aperanlty all he got was a kick in the balls from her and a couple shots from the co-workers :P Karma works!
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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I sorrowly don't have the time to read all answers, but one thing I can tell you. Here, especially where I work, they are all ?ber-hyper-special extraordinarily crazy. All. Most of the old ones kick their old and ancient view on things, act in hierarchic ways and think the chief of the company is God. I came in there as a little one before 12 years or so and they kicked me up to quite shitty conditions, but first hierarchically. It is extremly twisted and extremly crazy and vew vew oxigen the higher you get....you know, the higher to fall.. I am not that high, but on a fucking crazy course that is opposed to my personal wellbeing and view of nature... My influence is rising, power corrupts
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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As my other thread was closed I will add my comments there to this thread, so we may continue with this investigation.
Quote:
Like I said in my last post on Management I've been involved in work relations from both sides. The power structure is involved in separating themselves from the employee and this is to a large degree dysfunctional. Often records and important information is only available to management and can be unavailable to employees or destroyed at their discretion. I don't know how many times I have heard management claim confidentiality only to protect themselves from having to share information that would implicate them in wrongdoing. Take a look at world politics and major corps, in this country Watergate etc. It is also true in small business were management wants a strong separation from employees. The fact is Dictatorships, businesses, and Govts. hide incriminating evidence from the general population and will use any means at their disposal to put down those who seek justice. It takes an unpopular guy like Micheal Moore to dig it out. I still remember his interview with Charlton Heston. Man that was an eye opener.
I really don't see any real change in our world as long as we have this kind of thing going on. What cha think?
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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And last but not least is Incompetence. This is the unskillful use of power through lack of emotional health and also includes the inability to preform the manual job skills. If you are a manager you should have enough emotional health to avoid bias and petty grievances and pay back mentality. This is by far the most prevalent trait I see in dysfunctional management and a most destructive force in human nature. If one wants to manage other people and effect their lives and livelihood then you should have some control over your negative emotions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sclorch
Clyster


Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Quote:
Icelander said: I really don't see any real change in our world as long as we have this kind of thing going on. What cha think?
Revolution is a nonstop process. It is always a step behind authority. When your voice goes unheard, there are always new ways to protest, such as the online sit-in.
-------------------- Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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The reason you come across a number of managers who fail to meet your ideals is that there aren't enough competent -- let alone proficient -- candidates available to fill the managerial positions available. This results in employers settling for second best.
There's more to being a competent manager than experience and training. There's also temperament. As a result, there will ALWAYS be a scarcity of quality candidates for available managerial positions. Result -- employers out of desperation fill those positions with less than ideal candidates. What else can they do?
This is an old, old problem in the business world. Employers have been complaining about it for years. No one has yet come up with a solution, despite the best efforts of the best minds to solve it. That's not because they are too dumb to figure out the solution, it's because there is no solution to figure out.
Phred
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
#5255379 - 02/02/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree. Maybe it needs to be addressed in a different way, which only a very few humans would be able to handle. Most people, even those who complain, really like things the way they are and aspire to positions of power over others.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sclorch
Clyster


Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
#5255519 - 02/02/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: The reason you come across a number of managers who fail to meet your ideals is that there aren't enough competent -- let alone proficient -- candidates available to fill the managerial positions available. This results in employers settling for second best.
It's not like managing is rocket science. I think most administrations believe that the most important quality in a manager is the ability to kiss the ass of their boss - to keep the hierarchy alive.
A good example of this is the Dubya White House and the FEMA fiasco. A good ol' boy was put into a position he couldn't handle... but he got the position because he could kiss ass.
-------------------- Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
#5255552 - 02/02/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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A fairly accurate assessment I think.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
#5255578 - 02/02/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's not like managing is rocket science.
Of course it isn't, but that's not my point. My point is that you can give people the training to handle the mechanics of the job, but you can't give them a new temperament.
Quote:
I think most administrations believe that the most important quality in a manager is the ability to kiss the ass of their boss - to keep the hierarchy alive.
You have clearly never worked in private industry at any level higher than an entry-level position if you really think that and are not just saying it for effect.
Phred
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
#5255610 - 02/02/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
You have clearly never worked in private industry at any level higher than an entry-level position if you really think that and are not just saying it for effect.
I have and am in a higher level position. And kissing ass is basic or if not that, just going along and never complaining out of fear or whatever. That's the basic conditions I have seen in every job I have been in.
It's built into the structure of management and business. One person (often less competent) in charge of another; simmer and add a touch of human nature.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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VirgilKane
Miner for truth and delusion


Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: lowdown
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Sounds like a lot of Parents I see these days.
-------------------- Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense... "Religion is a defense against a religious experience" Carl G. Jung "So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
#5255758 - 02/02/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Slorch, can I ask you why a handful of people tend to compare the shroomery to a country and government?
I don't think that's a correct or fair comparison.
This country has elected leaders.
This community is lead by those who created it.
This country has laws to follow or else you are locked into prison.
This community has rules to follow or else you are SET FREE out into the whole of world and universe beyond it to do whatever you want to.
Those who work to serve the country get paid wages, health care and early retirement benefits.
Those who work to serve this community work for free.
Those who live actively in this country are charged taxes for government and social services and if you don;t pay them you pay hefty fines or go to jail for tax evasion.
Active members of this community receives it's services free of charge.
I fail to see how they compare and how making a comparison is fair. Help me out with what I don't see as to why some people make that comparison.
This community started with its own agenda to serve the psychedelic community of the globe with dissemination of information regarding drug use and to correct mis-information floating around about drug use. They care about safe and informed use. They are good caring people for that.
In the process, people of the psychedelic community that came here seeking information wanted to socialize so they created social forums too.
Now how is it that some minds have turned them into a corrupt suppressive government with lousy kiss ass mangers? How is it that some minds have turned them into a force that suppresses social information in the social forums as if its a crime?
Where did they ever promise to allow free speech beyond the site or forum rules?
How did some shroomin stoner guys out to spread the truth about psychedelic drug use and push for the legalization of it through a web-site get turned into a socialist oppressive Nazi government regime and or the Bush Administration?
I totally understand people having some SERIOUS and JUST problems and even anger held against the Nazi's regime of the past, the current Bush Administration and the Corporate corruption of today.
Is it fair to take those grievances and anger and project them unto the shroomery staff when they don't compare at all?
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells



Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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Freaking genius!! Somebody get this guy a free shirt or something! Am I the only person here that sees this!?! ITS A WEBSITE!!! What the hell is going on here?
See the computer in front of you? Turn it off. All the problems in life you were just having...GONE!! Its that simple..
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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Quote:
I_was_the_walrus said:

Freaking genius!! Somebody get this guy a free shirt or something! Am I the only person here that sees this!?! ITS A WEBSITE!!! What the hell is going on here?
See the computer in front of you? Turn it off. All the problems in life you were just having...GONE!! Its that simple..
So much for the only rule in this forum. 
This was a discussion involving a pertinent philosophical discussion concerning ideas and concepts that effect most individuals, and it was presented in a manner that did not include reference to any recent, personal events that may have transpired at this forum.
I was actually going to respond to the points raised concerning this topic, expressing my perspective on the issue. I am employed by the largest retail corporation and I am actively pursuing management oppurtunties. This is a concept that I have been contemplating a lot over the past few months.
As such, I was looking forward to engaging discussion with others that have been involved with management - someone who has posted is currently a manager in retail as well. I felt that I had a lot of valid, provacative thoughts to include to assist the formation of other's perspectives on the topic, and I also was looking forward to the oppurtunity to gain additional insight from others.
Regardless of whatever occurence provoked the formation of this post, it lies seperate from this post itself and the ideas presented, and the spirit of the rules that this forum has states that this is the exact notion that is to be encouraged when interacting with this forum, so that the intentions and purposes for this forum are able to thrive and proliferate.
Now, I ask you, who brought forth the personal agendas? Who drug in references to personal situations? Who took a valid topic that was experiencing insightful discussion and assasinated it? From this standpoint, it would appear to be gettingjiggywithit and our newest moderator, I_was_the_walrus. 
I see no point in any further participation within this thread, or this forum, for the exact reasons that have been clearly demonstrated in this thread. I was under the impression that the #1 problem that this forum has been afflicted with for quite some time was finally going to be directly addressed and cured. Instead, I only see those who have been responsible for the problem continuing to encourage it to a greater and greater extent. I regret ever proposing that I would like to be considered for an oppurtunity to ensure that this forum which I have loved and which has greatly benefited my development as a human being would be managed effectively.
It has become painfully clear to me that anything that I have ever sought from this place has been reaped, and that it seems to remain an empty shell which will offer myself no additional substance. If a simple code of conduct can not be observed or enforced, than there is no reason to continue to suffer the damage that results from such neglect. If those who are responsible for ensuring the functions of this forum are carried out as they were intended are themselves actively engaging in either not observing the rules themselves or are not taking action when the rules are blatantly ignored, then there can be nothing of any real worth here.
Anyone interested in contacting me can feel free to do so. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Right on as usual.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Quote:
And kissing ass is basic or if not that, just going along and never complaining out of fear or whatever.
It may be in the job you hold now. I can assure you, however, that most administrations do not "believe that the most important quality in a manager is the ability to kiss the ass of their boss - to keep the hierarchy alive."
Can you be more effective by not antagonizing your superiors? Yup. But not antagonizing them doesn't equate to "kissing ass" by a long shot. Nor does going along with the direction they suggest they want to see their company or division or whatever take.
Having said that, there are times when it is not only correct but obligatory to give your superiors a reality check. But you have to pick and choose your time for that and use that tactic only when it really counts rather than making it your signature. You get nowhere and do no favors for the people reporting to you if you are labelled a "troublemaker" or even in many cases just "negative".
This only reinforces what I said earlier -- while it is true that many of the mechanics of management are not rocket science, the "soft science" part of it is not only difficult for many people to even grasp, it is beyond the reach of many who do grasp it but are temperamentally unable to practice it. Many of the people who do have that rare combination of attributes decide they would prefer to start their own business.
I give you my sincere condolences that your work history to date has led you to believe your experiences in management are universal. Perhaps you will have the good fortune of one day being recruited to a company who values proficient managers over ass kissers.
Phred
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
#5256303 - 02/02/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Doubtful. I'm about to retire to a life of leisure. I don't have anymore time for games.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙


Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 23,419
Loc: city of angels
Last seen: 6 minutes, 3 seconds
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Now that's a mighty bit humorous. You refuse to allow yourself the pleasure of discussing the initial topic of this thread because of your perception that that initial topic has been ousted by a tangent?.. only to participate anyway, in the exact manner as that which you intend to complain about? It's never to late to steer a thread back on topic my friend!
I used to be a manager for a food service concession stand at a stadium/arena here in southern California. Started out as a slave laborer, but as time went on, the proprietor of the business noticed that I was an efficient worker who may not have made the same amount of careless errors as the other minimum wagers. Therefore, when she found her business requiring too much attention for herself alone -- or when she simply wanted to take some time off -- she approached me to help oversee the sales and inventory as well as direct the setup and closure of the operation for each event, essentially giving me the 'jack of all trades' position, or in other words a manager.
Did I necessarily want to manage other people? I don't think so. Did I enjoy the fact that "the boss" was rewarding my competence? Hell yes! If I have the ability to make a difference in the improvement/operation of a business venture (with the added benefit of increasing my monetary reward while doing it) -- it's a no brainer. It is the game of using your skills to make a living that excites me, having control over other humans is in fact a drawback, as I will explain below.
As Phred pointed out, a manager becomes partially responsible for other people's productivity on the job, and so one must have a very stable and calculating mindset in order to consistently evaluate their performance and make hard decisions. If the people you are supposed to be managing fail to adequately perform their tasks, then the manager himself has also failed in his position of oversight. There could be any number of reasons for a worker to underperform (ie. sickness, personal strife, injury, lack of skills, or simply a lazy attitude). A manager has to be willing to accept these facts of life and make tough decisions regardless; decisions that at times will inevitably make an enemy of him simply because being a manager over other people will require that you retain the ability to cut/prevent losses at any time when the assessment of the situation calls for it.
In human relations, we often want to forgive and give second chances to those whose company we enjoy. In business, regardless of how well you may like someone on a personal level, if they are underperforming or handling their duties inappropriately, you need to be able to "turn off" your personal affection for them in order to take action against them. This can of course lead to damaged interpersonal relationships, which is why as a manager one must have an even temperment and be confident in the decisions he or she makes, thereby allowing themselves to get through such tough calls with the ability to get up and do it again the next day.
So, to get back to the root question. Why do people want to manage other people? Barring the obvious monetary incentive, quite simply it is a challenge and therefore, an ego boost if you can do it successfully. In my view, being an effective manager is a way of stroking one's pride through the confidence that you have the competence and will to make good decisions, and the subsequent ability to evaluate your effectiveness. Afterall, being a manager opens the doors for dynamic actions that can have a large impact on the operation of your business - whereas being an assembly worker or janitor simply does not offer the same potential growth and volatility over time.
Of course, the world ain't perfect. Some people undoubtedly do want to exert dominance over others. Myself, I just like to control my financial standing and see how high I can "score" in the game of business. Incidentally, I no longer work in the food industry (or with any other humans save for here at the Shroomery), and am running my own sole-proprietorship in which I manage an inventory of ~ $50,000 worth of tangible goods, including handling all customer service, shipping, accounting, and administrative consideration.
In other words, I am getting the best out of management by being able to have full control over a wide variety of job functions, while at the same time getting to leave behind any of the personal conflict that can come with managing other people. It is for this reason that I have chosen to keep my business relatively small, rather than include other people in it which could undoubtedly increase the overall profitability and size of my venture, but on the same token would require me to delegate responsibility and worse, to ensure that said responsibility is being handled appropriately. I don't need to kiss ass and I don't need anyone kissin' mine.. I just like being able to work when I want and how I want!
- Manager
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-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Hey cool, a post. When I see your name come up on one of my threads I'm expecting to see the This thread has been closed sign. You caught me off guard.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sclorch
Clyster


Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Going along with what the boss says isn't a problem until the boss gets out of line (think: Enron). THAT is my point. In that context, explain to me how one WOULD NOT be kissing ass by NOT putting the boss in their place (think: you're a whistleblower at Enron).
It's not about antagonizing anybody... it's about integrity and virtue.
-------------------- Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
#5256576 - 02/02/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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zactly
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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I'll correct your misunderstanding FW. First let me say that I kept on topic asking about comparative people management structures. You however, went off topic by discussing a complaint you have against me personally due to your own mis-judgment. Not that I care, you probably had a tough day and I forgive you. 
If you have something to share on the subject of management there is no reason why you ever couldn't or still can't that I can see. Nothing was assassinated. What are you even talking about?
Sclorch was making some intelligent comments about people management power structures and seemed to have insight into how government and corporate structures worked.
So I thought to ask him, while he was here and on the subject, if could see how they compared to the shroomery web-site and maybe , if he could point out a comparison, with his insight, then I could better understand why some people make the comparison.
I gave lots of reasons for where I don't see any and don't understand the people management comparisons people make for him to work off of.
Some people consider the shroomery a business since it makes money off of vendors now.
If people can give examples of business for the discussion of the management topic, then I wanted to see how the shroomery related to business management philosophy and how it compared. I have no idea where the government people management comparisons come from yet though.
I kept on the topic of management styles, asking the opinion of another member. If Walrus had a comment about my reply about comparative managements and the structures they manage, he was keeping on topic too.
What was assasinated FW? We are allowed to ask on topic questions and share on topics opinions. Others didn't seem to have trouble adding replies after mine. Sorry you misunderstood.
Carry on about management I'm enjoying reading through the discussion 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
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Re: Managers [Re: geokills]
#5256943 - 02/02/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
geokills said: Now that's a mighty bit humorous. You refuse to allow yourself the pleasure of discussing the initial topic of this thread because of your perception that that initial topic has been ousted by a tangent?
In actuality, I chose to forego discussion of the topic because a moderator broke the rules by playing the classic "discuss the poster, not the ideas" card, bringing up a situation that has no place in regards to the topic at hand.
This has been an ongoing problem that has recently directly interfered with my participation within this forum. I was given to understand that such behavior would no longer be tolerated. I have found that it still is, that continued behavior by the same person exhibiting it agansit my character will not be addressed, that the moderator brought to this forum to enforce the rules that prohibit such behavior actively engages in the same behavior themself, and that the administrator that is fully aware of such behavior has not taken action to remove its presence from this thread.
I personally do not feel that I wish to continue to participate in a forum where such problems continue to flourish unabated. It is not what the intentions and purposes of this forum have been expressed to be, and it is not what I personally wish to involve myself with any further.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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What makes you think myself or walrus was discussing the poster?
I was discussing the people management comparison relative to numerous and to many to name and more importantly not even neccesary to name people make and was speaking in general. Its not a crime to make the comparison ya know. People can do it. I wonder why they do and how and where they see it does. Thats all.
No harm being done here by ANYone that I can see except for you "trying" to make trouble for me and the walrus and taking Ices thread into personalisms. If you can't stay away from personalism, I'll kindly bow out of this thread with no hard feelings. It's not that big a deal. I was just curious about someones opinion on something related to people management structures and why or how some would reason such. Yeesh. 
My apologize to you Ice for replying to FW. If he brings me into this thread again, I will reply to him in PMs.

-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Fireworks has left the building. A tremendous spirit and intellect. I am amazed at the skill of one so young. He will be missed.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (02/02/06 09:02 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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This country has elected leaders.
This community is lead by those who created it.
This country was orginally created by men who believed in the power of liberty. Because of this, they created a democracy which allowed them to be voted out of office. This forum could easily be a democracy too.
This country has laws to follow or else you are locked into prison.
This community has rules to follow or else you are SET FREE out into the whole of world and universe beyond it to do whatever you want to.
In other words, this forum deports you.
Now how is it that some minds have turned them into a corrupt suppressive government with lousy kiss ass mangers? How is it that some minds have turned them into a force that suppresses social information in the social forums as if its a crime?
The MGT has done something which the majority of the regular posters seem to disagree with. Then, they stated that they are "in charge" and have no obligation to give a damn about us. Typical totalitarian behavior.
Where did they ever promise to allow free speech beyond the site or forum rules?
No where. Personally, I assumed that the Mods weren't fascist fucking assholes. I'm shocked to find out they are. I imagined them to be somewhat enlightened and libertine.
How did some shroomin stoner guys out to spread the truth about psychedelic drug use and push for the legalization of it through a web-site get turned into a socialist oppressive Nazi government regime and or the Bush Administration?
By acting like an socialist oppressive Nazi government regime.
Is it fair to take those grievances and anger and project them unto the shroomery staff when they don't compare at all?
YES!!!!! Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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You are now on the list. And that includes double secret probation. Potty mouth.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Woah what was with the flaming? I specifically asked sclorch because he keeps himself well composed.
I was looking for direct comparisons I may have missed. You didn't have any. You just commented on the differences and in your mind tied them together as being the same. At least that gave me insight into how people can come to compare them.
The U.S. does not deport people for breaking the law. It deports them for being illegal aliens. That doesn't compare to how rule breakers are managed here.
Dictators take over existing countries with an active population.
The shroomery was not a pre-existing country "web site" to be taken over. It's a web-site that had to be created out of empty virtual space.
You're to hot to handle right now mush.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Hey dude are you banned without a warning? I thought that the banbot system was supposed to prevent bias bans.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sclorch
Clyster


Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Sclorch, can I ask you why a handful of people tend to compare the shroomery to a country and government?
Because it's easy to do so... they all have hierarchical structures and laws.
Quote:
I don't think that's a correct or fair comparison.
Luckily your thinking falls in line with the leadership.
-------------------- Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
#5257636 - 02/02/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mush isn't banned, we just took the discussion into PMs.
sclorch, I was looking to see actual comparisons.
Like how mush compared the banning to deportation. You would need a comparative illegal alien qualifier. The closest this community has to an illegal alien would be someone 17 or under. No one cares if they get banned. Well, it sort sucked when def did for it. He was always mature.
Forget that question, if anyone wants to tackle it, PM me. If anyone is too heated right now, I don't want them to say something and risk a warning or ban.
I was reading Geos reply and it made me think of a management Policy TGI Fridays had which disallowed salary members from fraternizing with the hourly staff. Reason being, if they liked or hated them personally, it would cause them to make ineffective management decision in the best interest of the corporation.
makes sense.
When My husband and I ran a business, we had to be business first. We had share holders we were obligated too, our own financial well being, business reputation to uphold and the staff to work in a safe and professional environment.
We had to fire a lot of slackers and it sucked. They were always the fun guy for the staff to go party with after work and they would get pissy with us and moral would go down and the work place would be tense for a while.
Or, they would try to pull the "friends first" trump card on us and that made it hard to be business first. Had we not been, the business would've tanked hard and fast. We grew it fast instead and surpassed competitors quickly because we stuck to our professional guns and cut out the slackers and employees with bad attitudes.
Those decisions were not always popular with the staff though and moral suffered a lot at times, those most pulled it together and turned it on for at least the boat passengers-so they could make good tips.
Like Phred said, it was hard finding good professional help and people with strong work ethics in the islands. People were there to slack off and party. No matter how great a manager you are, if you don't have much to work with........ 
My heart strings were worked over a lot being a manager of people. To be frank, my husband and I hated it. We really felt like we were babysitting much of the time. I'm so glad we sold it and got out.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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soylent_green
The greatEnitsuj


Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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there all reptiles who are born to controal the human race!!!
but yeah, i really odnt know waht it is aobut them but i do see a difference in people in a place of managment. Its like something is just 'different' about them. i think they seem kinda cold..not just because they get my in trouble if i'm not working hard enough. but yeah they creep me out *shifty eyes*
-------------------- What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?
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CUBErt
Connoisseur ofHallucination


Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1,067
Loc: Southern CA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
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I have been thinking about this alot at my job, which is in retail. Alot of things about retail in general have started to depress me (but I will stay on topic), managers in particular. The several managers at my job just often seem so stressed/unhappy/or void of emotion. They are always pushing me to get the customers to buy warranties (technology store), even when the people aren't interested or can't afford it. The difficult thing though, is that these managers are necessary. Who else will you approach to settle an argument or appease a customer?
-------------------- -CUBErt
 
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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So anyone here who managed people in the work place so they could earn a living was a reptile out to control the human race? 
No doubt the staff thought my hubby was cold. They called him the AXE he used it so much to fire slackers. In our personal life, he has the biggest warmest heart of anyone I have met in my life.
Some people who manage people to earn a living just have families to feed.
Perhaps you were referring to the Bush Administration, Hitler and Big Corporate corruption like Enron. You've been reading David Icke huh? Did you see the special on the History channel called Secret Societies about the "world management" group? I couldn't believe I saw David Icke on the History channel.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Anybody in power can forget how if feels to be powerless... and their actions can be LARGER than needed because of this.
That said, most Managers and Mods get their jobs because they are good with people.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Managers [Re: Rose]
#5257959 - 02/03/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I see that POV. The only solution for that is for a manager to self moderate where that line is to not over do it.
You are talking about relating through remembering what its like and thats a great tool, to put yourself in the other guys shoes before taking action. (good reminder for all of us)
What about those who can't relate to some things? Like in my husbands case, he can't relate to what it was like when he was a slacker on the job with a lousy work ethic because he never was or had one. I think because of that he is at times, too hard on people in the work place and I tell him so. Yet, that is what is currently moving him up the corporate latter quickly in his current position. He demands excellence and has grown the company in an unprecedented manor in his territory. Thats what he is paid to do.
Business is about money, not peoples feelings, unless your a psychologist. 
How do you propose the corporate world make peoples feelings come first and survive? I think as a modern society we have passed the point of no return there.
Maybe this planet needs its slate wiped clean with only humanitarians left to start over.
I remember how bad I felt once when this crew guy we had, who use to be a fireman in the states, ya think he would be real responsible, was a so so employee. One night, he left $3,000 worth of equipment out and unlocked to be stolen. My husband was pissed about that and fired him. He had a kid and baby on the way. Hubby and I felt horrible but he became a liability not an asset in the business sense.
Like I said, my heart strings were worked over a lot.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Rose
Devil's Advocate


Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Yup, that is business... I understand... but does your hubbies' job say THEY WON'T FIRE PEOPLE for making human mistakes? No.
My problem is when management rises ABOVE the rules or their own mission statement... GWB style... and acts powerfully because they can... even though they say elsewhere they'd never do such a thing.
My problem is when managers WILL NOT ALLOW people to disagree... even if they are GREAT salespeople who play by the rules. There is a difference between insubordination and a different opinion. Often another opinion is valuable. I love getting Wiccan_Seeker's advice on stuff, because I know he often has a different opinion... but he is always willing to say WHY.
I look at our opinions and usually decide the truth is somewhere in between.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Managers [Re: Rose]
#5258067 - 02/03/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mission Statements are a VITAL must have . We had one and we kept to it, always referred back to it when making decisions and it served us well in our objectives. It helps you keep focus on what you are doing, how you are to do it and why you are.
Without it your a ship without a rutter or sail being tossed about by the waves.
Regarding what you said about abusing power just because its there and can be used to abuse? Thats sadistic shit in my book.
Thats why you need the mission statement, to help know when the use of power is becoming abusive. If the power actions don't serve the mission statement, then you have abuse going on.
I say mission statement and not policy or rule procedure because rules and policies don't always cover gray areas and every thing that may pop up. A mission statement works better when you hit those gray areas with rules and policy procedures and in some cases, they need to flex to keep with the mission statement. If you find rules and policy procedure that's not serving the mission statement well, you need to change them to better serve it.
I know you are going to bring up in enforcing them next. Of course consistency is another vital area to me. I had to be consistant with rule enforcement raising my daughter and it served well. I only have to ask once. She knows I will enforce a consequence after a warning. I ALWAYS give warning. I don't beleive it fair to her if I don't.
People start to develop anxiety disorders and live in defence mode when they never know when the shit is going to hit the fan. Not cool.
Parenting is relevant here too because parents manage little people and have shit loads of power over them. Many parents abuse that power too- sadistic they are I say.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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geokills
∙∙∙∙☼ º¿° ☼∙∙∙∙


Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 23,419
Loc: city of angels
Last seen: 6 minutes, 3 seconds
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Re: Managers [Re: Rose]
#5258148 - 02/03/06 02:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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> My problem is when managers WILL NOT ALLOW people to disagree...
I think most reasonable managers are fine with disagreement, but there is a time and a place for such matters. A salesperson at a clothing store is not going to start complaining to the boss about the air conditioning being broke or the lack of coffee in the lounge while they are in the middle of helping a customer. But if said salesperson were to mention these matters in the lounge on break or in between shifts, I'm sure the manager would be willing to lend an ear and consider the complaint/suggestion.
--------------------
-------------------- ┼ ··∙ long live the shroomery ∙·· ┼ ...╬π╥ ╥π╬...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: Managers [Re: geokills]
#5258337 - 02/03/06 05:59 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah managers can act like little dictators, but if you really are a strong person, you can face them and stick to what you want. Consider it more like a training for strenght rather then a pain in the ass - which it is too-. Don't let this sad people get you down.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist



Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 9 hours, 30 minutes
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Quote:
Icelander said: I have often wondered what makes people want to manage other people? I used to believe that people want to manage because they have useful skills and want to be of service. But this has not been my experience of people that want to manager or be in charge of other humans. With all the evidence in I'm tending toward believing that most all manager types have inferiority complexes and feel powerless. They often are of low character and weak. Take a look at Enron. Take a look at Politics. Take a look around you.
What cha all think?
If people would just manage they damn selves we wouldn't need managers. We need managers because people like to live in this big clusterfuck we call society. Most managers I knowed was managers because of all the money. You get paid good to boss beople around, and you don't haves to be very smart.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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The other thing I find about most managers and management is the general lack of moral character. In fact upper management often with intent hires other managers to carry out policies that anyone in good conscience would not. Choose people who are fearful or greedy is a good way to make sure that the leader stays in charge and doesn't have to have strong disagreement in the ranks. They have enough problems keeping the wage slaves in line. It would not do to have managers who thought that the workers were right or had had their rights violated. These people quickly leave or are fired.
As far as upper management goes it's just a business. The wouldn't know or could care less about the moral quality or lack of in their workforce, or who these people are. The are just parts for making money.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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justamonkey
Stranger


Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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I think its easy to tell who makes a good manager and who makes a bad one by simply looking at the worker's happiness. Just because the job is done good, doesn't mean the manager is good. I think people who want to be the manager, because they want to manage, owuld make miserable and horrid managers. But, perhaps people who want to be managers because they think the extra responsibility, insentives and leadership would be worth it, and whom get along well with others would make good managers. If it ends up that the manager is at odds with the subordinate due to the task at hand, and the manager is simply following his or her leader, then it is no longer a discussion of manager, and becomes an argument of choice.
This being said, I think there are two dynamic managerial types, those who wish to control, for control, and those who wish not to control, but to guide. If you think about it, we don't CONTROL anything, we can't. We just guide things and hope reality holds up to our expectations. This often leads us to error. But anyway, there you have it.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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There is new school and old school. As long as new school is quite unstable and unpredictable, as well as even risky, it is very often needed to use old school. I am learning just now.
Old, as viewn for business means hierarchic, like militaristic, but not misqualifying human nature. The power to implant himself into the organisation like a part of body, or cell...for all !
Edited by BlueCoyote (02/03/06 12:39 PM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
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I am sorry to dig this little old thing out, but I have one thought and one experience, that I now..quite now are learning and experiencing very very strongly. ...that is: As a manager, you have to stand straight for the shits your underdogs are doing. You get the kick in the ass, if they do something wrong. And you get the kick more directly, than your underdog will ever be hit. If some part of your existence depends on that, you will think twice !
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