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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Managers [Re: Icelander]
    #5255076 - 02/02/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

And last but not least is Incompetence. This is the unskillful use of power through lack of emotional health and also includes the inability to preform the manual job skills. If you are a manager you should have enough emotional health to avoid bias and petty grievances and pay back mentality. This is by far the most prevalent trait I see in dysfunctional management and a most destructive force in human nature. If one wants to manage other people and effect their lives and livelihood then you should have some control over your negative emotions.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Managers [Re: Icelander]
    #5255085 - 02/02/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I really don't see any real change in our world as long as we have this kind of thing going on. What cha think?




Revolution is a nonstop process. It is always a step behind authority.
When your voice goes unheard, there are always new ways to protest, such as the online sit-in.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Managers [Re: Icelander]
    #5255367 - 02/02/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

The reason you come across a number of managers who fail to meet your ideals is that there aren't enough competent -- let alone proficient -- candidates available to fill the managerial positions available. This results in employers settling for second best.

There's more to being a competent manager than experience and training. There's also temperament. As a result, there will ALWAYS be a scarcity of quality candidates for available managerial positions. Result -- employers out of desperation fill those positions with less than ideal candidates. What else can they do?

This is an old, old problem in the business world. Employers have been complaining about it for years. No one has yet come up with a solution, despite the best efforts of the best minds to solve it. That's not because they are too dumb to figure out the solution, it's because there is no solution to figure out.




Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
    #5255379 - 02/02/06 01:39 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I agree. :thumbup:  Maybe it needs to be addressed in a different way, which only a very few humans would be able to handle. Most people, even those who complain, really like things the way they are and aspire to positions of power over others. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
    #5255519 - 02/02/06 02:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The reason you come across a number of managers who fail to meet your ideals is that there aren't enough competent -- let alone proficient -- candidates available to fill the managerial positions available. This results in employers settling for second best.



It's not like managing is rocket science. I think most administrations believe that the most important quality in a manager is the ability to kiss the ass of their boss - to keep the hierarchy alive.

A good example of this is the Dubya White House and the FEMA fiasco. A good ol' boy was put into a position he couldn't handle... but he got the position because he could kiss ass.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
    #5255552 - 02/02/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

A fairly accurate assessment I think.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
    #5255578 - 02/02/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

It's not like managing is rocket science.




Of course it isn't, but that's not my point. My point is that you can give people the training to handle the mechanics of the job, but you can't give them a new temperament.

Quote:

I think most administrations believe that the most important quality in a manager is the ability to kiss the ass of their boss - to keep the hierarchy alive.




You have clearly never worked in private industry at any level higher than an entry-level position if you really think that and are not just saying it for effect.



Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
    #5255610 - 02/02/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You have clearly never worked in private industry at any level higher than an entry-level position if you really think that and are not just saying it for effect.




I have and am in a higher level position. And kissing ass is basic or if not that, just going along and never complaining out of fear or whatever. That's the basic conditions I have seen in every job I have been in.

It's built into the structure of management and business. One person (often less competent) in charge of another; simmer and add a touch of human nature. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVirgilKane
Miner for truth and delusion
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Posts: 1,131
Loc: lowdown
Re: Managers [Re: Icelander]
    #5255724 - 02/02/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Sounds like a lot of Parents I see these days. :frown:


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
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Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
    #5255758 - 02/02/06 03:13 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Slorch, can I ask you why a handful of people tend to compare the shroomery to a country and government?

I don't think that's a correct or fair comparison.

This country has elected leaders.

This community is lead by those who created it.

This country has laws to follow or else you are locked into prison.

This community has rules to follow or else you are SET FREE out into the whole of world and universe beyond it to do whatever you want to.

Those who work to serve the country get paid wages, health care and early retirement benefits.

Those who work to serve this community work for free.

Those who live actively in this country are charged taxes for government and social services and if you don;t pay them you pay hefty fines or go to jail for tax evasion.

Active members of this community receives it's services free of charge.

I fail to see how they compare and how making a comparison is fair. Help me out with what I don't see as to why some people make that comparison.


This community started with its own agenda to serve the psychedelic community of the globe with dissemination of information regarding drug use and to correct mis-information floating around about drug use. They care about safe and informed use. They are good caring people for that.

In the process, people of the psychedelic community that came here seeking information wanted to socialize so they created social forums too.


Now how is it that some minds have turned them into a corrupt suppressive government with lousy kiss ass mangers? How is it that some minds have turned them into a force that suppresses social information in the social forums as if its a crime?

Where did they ever promise to allow free speech beyond the site or forum rules?

How did some shroomin stoner guys out to spread the truth about psychedelic drug use and push for the legalization of it through a web-site get turned into a socialist oppressive Nazi government regime and or the Bush Administration?

I totally understand people having some SERIOUS and JUST problems and even anger held against the Nazi's regime of the past, the current Bush Administration and the Corporate corruption of today.

Is it fair to take those grievances and anger and project them unto the shroomery staff when they don't compare at all?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleI_was_the_walrus
eggshells
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Re: Managers [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5255844 - 02/02/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:handth: :handth:

Freaking genius!! Somebody get this guy a free shirt or something! Am I the only person here that sees this!?! ITS A WEBSITE!!! What the hell is going on here?

See the computer in front of you?
Turn it off.
All the problems in life you were just having...GONE!!
Its that simple..


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Posts: 24,855
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Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Managers [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
    #5256053 - 02/02/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I_was_the_walrus said:
:handth: :handth:

Freaking genius!! Somebody get this guy a free shirt or something! Am I the only person here that sees this!?! ITS A WEBSITE!!! What the hell is going on here?

See the computer in front of you?
Turn it off.
All the problems in life you were just having...GONE!!
Its that simple..




So much for the only rule in this forum. :nonono:

This was a discussion involving a pertinent philosophical discussion concerning ideas and concepts that effect most individuals, and it was presented in a manner that did not include reference to any recent, personal events that may have transpired at this forum.

I was actually going to respond to the points raised concerning this topic, expressing my perspective on the issue. I am employed by the largest retail corporation and I am actively pursuing management oppurtunties. This is a concept that I have been contemplating a lot over the past few months.

As such, I was looking forward to engaging discussion with others that have been involved with management - someone who has posted is currently a manager in retail as well. I felt that I had a lot of valid, provacative thoughts to include to assist the formation of other's perspectives on the topic, and I also was looking forward to the oppurtunity to gain additional insight from others.

Regardless of whatever occurence provoked the formation of this post, it lies seperate from this post itself and the ideas presented, and the spirit of the rules that this forum has states that this is the exact notion that is to be encouraged when interacting with this forum, so that the intentions and purposes for this forum are able to thrive and proliferate.

Now, I ask you, who brought forth the personal agendas? Who drug in references to personal situations? Who took a valid topic that was experiencing insightful discussion and assasinated it? From this standpoint, it would appear to be gettingjiggywithit and our newest moderator, I_was_the_walrus. :frown:

I see no point in any further participation within this thread, or this forum, for the exact reasons that have been clearly demonstrated in this thread. I was under the impression that the #1 problem that this forum has been afflicted with for quite some time was finally going to be directly addressed and cured. Instead, I only see those who have been responsible for the problem continuing to encourage it to a greater and greater extent. I regret ever proposing that I would like to be considered for an oppurtunity to ensure that this forum which I have loved and which has greatly benefited my development as a human being would be managed effectively.

It has become painfully clear to me that anything that I have ever sought from this place has been reaped, and that it seems to remain an empty shell which will offer myself no additional substance. If a simple code of conduct can not be observed or enforced, than there is no reason to continue to suffer the damage that results from such neglect. If those who are responsible for ensuring the functions of this forum are carried out as they were intended are themselves actively engaging in either not observing the rules themselves or are not taking action when the rules are blatantly ignored, then there can be nothing of any real worth here.

Anyone interested in contacting me can feel free to do so. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Managers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5256185 - 02/02/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Right on as usual. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Managers [Re: Icelander]
    #5256271 - 02/02/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

And kissing ass is basic or if not that, just going along and never complaining out of fear or whatever.




It may be in the job you hold now. I can assure you, however, that most administrations do not "believe that the most important quality in a manager is the ability to kiss the ass of their boss - to keep the hierarchy alive."

Can you be more effective by not antagonizing your superiors? Yup. But not antagonizing them doesn't equate to "kissing ass" by a long shot. Nor does going along with the direction they suggest they want to see their company or division or whatever take.

Having said that, there are times when it is not only correct but obligatory to give your superiors a reality check. But you have to pick and choose your time for that and use that tactic only when it really counts rather than making it your signature. You get nowhere and do no favors for the people reporting to you if you are labelled a "troublemaker" or even in many cases just "negative".

This only reinforces what I said earlier -- while it is true that many of the mechanics of management are not rocket science, the "soft science" part of it is not only difficult for many people to even grasp, it is beyond the reach of many who do grasp it but are temperamentally unable to practice it. Many of the people who do have that rare combination of attributes decide they would prefer to start their own business.

I give you my sincere condolences that your work history to date has led you to believe your experiences in management are universal. Perhaps you will have the good fortune of one day being recruited to a company who values proficient managers over ass kissers.




Phred


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Managers [Re: Phred]
    #5256303 - 02/02/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Doubtful. I'm about to retire to a life of leisure. I don't have anymore time for games. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinegeokillsA
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Re: Managers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5256397 - 02/02/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Now that's a mighty bit humorous.  You refuse to allow yourself the pleasure of discussing the initial topic of this thread because of your perception that that initial topic has been ousted by a tangent?.. only to participate anyway, in the exact manner as that which you intend to complain about?  It's never to late to steer a thread back on topic my friend!

I used to be a manager for a food service concession stand at a stadium/arena here in southern California.  Started out as a slave laborer, but as time went on, the proprietor of the business noticed that I was an efficient worker who may not have made the same amount of careless errors as the other minimum wagers.  Therefore, when she found her business requiring too much attention for herself alone -- or when she simply wanted to take some time off -- she approached me to help oversee the sales and inventory as well as direct the setup and closure of the operation for each event, essentially giving me the 'jack of all trades' position, or in other words a manager.

Did I necessarily want to manage other people?  I don't think so.  Did I enjoy the fact that "the boss" was rewarding my competence?  Hell yes!  If I have the ability to make a difference in the improvement/operation of a business venture (with the added benefit of increasing my monetary reward while doing it) -- it's a no brainer.  It is the game of using your skills to make a living that excites me, having control over other humans is in fact a drawback, as I will explain below.

As Phred pointed out, a manager becomes partially responsible for other people's productivity on the job, and so one must have a very stable and calculating mindset in order to consistently evaluate their performance and make hard decisions.  If the people you are supposed to be managing fail to adequately perform their tasks, then the manager himself has also failed in his position of oversight.  There could be any number of reasons for a worker to underperform (ie. sickness, personal strife, injury, lack of skills, or simply a lazy attitude).  A manager has to be willing to accept these facts of life and make tough decisions regardless; decisions that at times will inevitably make an enemy of him simply because being a manager over other people will require that you retain the ability to cut/prevent losses at any time when the assessment of the situation calls for it. 

In human relations, we often want to forgive and give second chances to those whose company we enjoy.  In business, regardless of how well you may like someone on a personal level, if they are underperforming or handling their duties inappropriately, you need to be able to "turn off" your personal affection for them in order to take action against them.  This can of course lead to damaged interpersonal relationships, which is why as a manager one must have an even temperment and be confident in the decisions he or she makes, thereby allowing themselves to get through such tough calls with the ability to get up and do it again the next day.

So, to get back to the root question.  Why do people want to manage other people?  Barring the obvious monetary incentive, quite simply it is a challenge and therefore, an ego boost if you can do it successfully.  In my view, being an effective manager is a way of stroking one's pride through the confidence that you have the competence and will to make good decisions, and the subsequent ability to evaluate your effectiveness.  Afterall, being a manager opens the doors for dynamic actions that can have a large impact on the operation of your business - whereas being an assembly worker or janitor simply does not offer the same potential growth and volatility over time.

Of course, the world ain't perfect.  Some people undoubtedly do want to exert dominance over others.  Myself, I just like to control my financial standing and see how high I can "score" in the game of business.  Incidentally, I no longer work in the food industry (or with any other humans save for here at the Shroomery), and am running my own sole-proprietorship in which I manage an inventory of ~ $50,000 worth of tangible goods, including handling all customer service, shipping, accounting, and administrative consideration. 

In other words, I am getting the best out of management by being able to have full control over a wide variety of job functions, while at the same time getting to leave behind any of the personal conflict that can come with managing other people.  It is for this reason that I have chosen to keep my business relatively small, rather than include other people in it which could undoubtedly increase the overall profitability and size of my venture, but on the same token would require me to delegate responsibility and worse, to ensure that said responsibility is being handled appropriately.  I don't need to kiss ass and I don't need anyone kissin' mine.. I just like being able to work when I want and how I want!

- Manager :laugh:


--------------------

--------------------
··∙   long live the shroomery  ∙··
...π╥ ╥π...


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Managers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5256426 - 02/02/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Hey cool, a post. :thumbup: When I see your name come up on one of my threads I'm expecting to see the This thread has been closed sign. You caught me off guard. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Managers [Re: Icelander]
    #5256560 - 02/02/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Going along with what the boss says isn't a problem until the boss gets out of line (think: Enron). THAT is my point. In that context, explain to me how one WOULD NOT be kissing ass by NOT putting the boss in their place (think: you're a whistleblower at Enron).

It's not about antagonizing anybody... it's about integrity and virtue.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Managers [Re: Sclorch]
    #5256576 - 02/02/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

zactly :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Posts: 7,469
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Re: Managers [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5256692 - 02/02/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I'll correct your misunderstanding FW.  :smile: First let me say that I kept on topic asking about comparative people management structures. You however, went off topic by discussing a complaint you have against me personally due to your own mis-judgment. Not that I care, you probably had a tough day and I forgive you.  :smile:

If you have something to share on the subject of management there is no reason why you ever couldn't or still can't that I can see. Nothing was assassinated. What are you even talking about?

Sclorch was making some intelligent comments about people management power structures and seemed to have insight into how government and corporate structures worked.

So I thought to ask him, while he was here and on the subject, if could see how they compared to the shroomery web-site and maybe , if he could point out a comparison, with his insight, then I could better understand why some people make the comparison.

I gave lots of reasons for where I don't see any and don't understand the people management comparisons people make for him to work off of.

Some people consider the shroomery a business since it makes money off of vendors now.

If people can give examples of business for the discussion of the management topic, then I wanted to see how the shroomery related to business management philosophy and how it compared. I have no idea where the government people management comparisons come from yet though.

I kept on the topic of management styles, asking the opinion of another member. If Walrus had a comment about my reply about comparative managements and the structures they manage, he was keeping on topic too.

What was assasinated FW? :confused: We are allowed to ask on topic questions and share on topics opinions. Others didn't seem to have trouble adding replies after mine. :shrug: Sorry you misunderstood.

Carry on about management:cool: I'm enjoying reading through the discussion :mushroom2:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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