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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Expansion of the Universe
#5232191 - 01/27/06 05:29 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I was discussing cosmology with a friend. I had asked if he thought it possible that the universe would end in a black hole. He said no, because the universe is expanding. I asked him what the curve of a graph of the expansion of the universe would look like, and he replied that it was perfectly linear until 5 years ago.
Apparently five years ago the Hubble was able to make more accurate measurements, and discovered that the expansion was actually accelerating. This raised a few interesting questions in my mind that he was unable to answer, so I want to see what you might have to say.
First, isn't it possible that the rate of expansion has always been increasing? If not and this truly did begin just five years ago, will it continue to increase at an exponential rate, with no end? If there isn't a multiverse (I'm of the opinion that there is), then what is the universe expanding into, and how do you explain it?
And of course, does anti-matter exist?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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supercollider
superconducting


Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 1,234
Loc: Waxahachie
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Re: Expansion of the Universe [Re: dblaney]
#5232530 - 01/27/06 07:16 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hah, that's pretty funny about it being "perfectly linear until 5 years ago." That's when the acceleration was first discovered, not when it actually started accelerating.
I'm not sure if anyone has a good explanation for the acceleration or not.
-------------------- Supercollider? I just met her!
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Expansion of the Universe [Re: dblaney]
#5232714 - 01/27/06 08:15 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
And of course, does anti-matter exist?
It does exist and has been know to exist for quite some time. Dont confuse anti-matter with dark matter and dark energy. Dark matter and dark energy are unknown, and probably in some way account for the acceleration of the universe. (which did not start 5 years ago, but was discovered in 1997 i believe)
Anti-matter can be emitted as a beta particle (positron), and they also make anti-protons at fermilab. They have managed to make these and bond them in a magnetic bottle, creating anti-hydrogen. This spring the fermilab crew hopes to do spectroscopy on anti-hydrogen, although its expected they will have the same emission lines as a normal hydrogen.
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Akira
CosmicConsciousness


Registered: 12/30/05
Posts: 2,283
Loc: Hay Un Mundo Mas Alla
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Everything that has a beginning has an end. The universe thus cannot be expanding infinitely, unless of course you want to say it expands and collapses back within itself in an infinite cycle of reacuring big bangs and black holes.
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Orissa India Bulk Grow (Tub Tek) Bulk Steamer Pasteurizer Tek "Our intention is our eternal fingerprint in the universe." We know that God is good, and so are hamburgers and hot dogs. We know that hamburgers and hot dogs definitely do exist, so then by deduction of logic God too must also exist. Hamburgers + Hot dogs = God.... Duh
Edited by GodsEntelechy (01/27/06 08:18 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Expansion of the Universe [Re: Akira]
#5232759 - 01/27/06 08:26 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
GodsEntelechy said: Everything that has a beginning has an end.
I see no reason for that to be necesarily true. The idea that there must be a begining and an end are basic to human intuition, but human intuition is, at times, wrong. This is because humans have evolved in a limited closed system, so we evolved limited closed brains.
Here is a quote from a Hindu scripture- "Some foolish men declare that a Creator made the world. The doctrine that the world was created is ill-advised, and should be rejected. If God created the world, where was he before creation?... How could God have made the world without any raw material? If you say He made this first, and then the world, you are faced with an endless regression... Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without beginning and end. And it is based on principles."
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Newbie
User of semicolons.


Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 24,721
Loc: SoCal
Last seen: 20 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Expansion of the Universe [Re: DieCommie]
#5234808 - 01/28/06 10:38 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
GodsEntelechy said: Everything that has a beginning has an end.
I see no reason for that to be necesarily true. The idea that there must be a begining and an end are basic to human intuition, but human intuition is, at times, wrong. This is because humans have evolved in a limited closed system, so we evolved limited closed brains.
Here is a quote from a Hindu scripture- "Some foolish men declare that a Creator made the world. The doctrine that the world was created is ill-advised, and should be rejected. If God created the world, where was he before creation?... How could God have made the world without any raw material? If you say He made this first, and then the world, you are faced with an endless regression... Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without beginning and end. And it is based on principles."
That's my argument too! How was god created? I get so lost in deep thought about origin...It boggles my mind that all of this came from something. How could there have been "nothing" before "something". The very idea of nothing is something.
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WhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 1,351
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Expansion of the Universe [Re: Newbie]
#5234846 - 01/28/06 10:57 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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I watched a special on the ever expanding universe. It said that yes, the Universe is expanding at an expotential rate, meaning faster and faster. I think I remember that it's getting less and less dense though. Since it's getting less dense that would throw out the black hole theory since a blck hoel is from an incredable dense matter that's gravitatioal pull does'nt even let light escape. The reason for the Universe expanding was particals that are smaller than we thought were possible and these particales spontanously created themself some how and these particals contributed to the expansion of the Universe. As for the fate Wikipedia says "The ultimate fate of the universe is a subject of study in the field of cosmology. Vying scientific theories predict whether the life of the universe is finite or infinite. The fate of the universe depends upon the density of matter and the rate of expansion. Current understanding of matter in the universe suggests that the universe must consist of dark energy and dark matter to explain the current rate of expansion. Mainstream models of the universe currently predict that the universe will go on expanding at an accelerating rate."
Take this with a grain of salt because it has been sometime ago I saw the special.
WB
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Expansion of the Universe [Re: WhiteBunny]
#5237418 - 01/29/06 02:11 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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If the universe retains the same mass and is expanding at an accelerating rate, of course it would be less dense now than a million years ago, since density = mass / volume. Greater volume = less density.
What do you mean, decreasing density throws out the black hole theory? Black holes are created when the curvature on spacetime from the clustering of matter is so great than nothing, not even photons, can travel fast enough to escape without exceeding the cosmic speed limit (the speed of light in a vacuum). There are fluctuations in mass all over the universe, and since the fluctations in mass determine the curvature of spacetime, black holes are entirely realistic. I doubt anything's going to "throw out" the theory of black holes, unless Einstein and all of cosmology up to this point really fucked up, which seems unlikely.
According to the currently accepted idea of the timeline of the universe, black holes will also be the last remaining "object" in the universe, once all the galaxies, stars, planets and even molecules dissolve. Then, under the process of Hawking radiation where quantum particles use quantum tunneling to escape a black hole, even black holes will evaporate, until there's nothing left.
It's beautiful to think that we'll all be part of the nothingness at the end of time.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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WhiteBunny
How deep doesthe rabbit hole go?


Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 1,351
Loc: Earth
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: Expansion of the Universe [Re: Ravus]
#5238103 - 01/29/06 10:37 AM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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what i meant was the universe gains more mass but not at the rate it expands. You haven't thought about black hole evaporation and the possibility of exploding primordial black holes.
WB
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