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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
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 Nostradamus and The End of the World 
#521900 - 01/16/02 12:38 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Nostradamus predicted an end of the world in 1999.
Did it end? No.
Did the Nostradamus believers change their tune? No.
Edward Cayce predicted that Atlantis along with death rays would be discoverd in 1968.
Was it found? No.
Did the Cayce believers change their tune? No.
Richard Hoagland stated that the 1976 picture taken by NASA of the Cydonia region of Mars was actually an alien artifact surrounded by pramids in alignment with those of Egypt. This area was rephotographed last year. The photo shows no anomolies, no face, no city or pyramids.
Was it a face? No.
Did the Hoagland followers change their tune? No.
This story has been repeated numerous times throughout history. A group or prophet makes a prediction that fails to materialize. What follows is one of the following:
The Prophet (or his disciples, if deceased) states that he misinterpretted the sign/s and lays out a new timeline.
Comes up with a new story about how the spiritual light from his evolved followers helped to change the future and avert the disaster.
Points to some mini-disaster and says "See what I told you?"
Or quietly moves on to some new phenomonen...
This will happen with shroomism's dimensional shift in 2003 and McKenna's End of History in 2012.
And of course, not one single believer will come out and say " I was gullible and wrong to take that story on face value."
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#521909 - 01/16/02 12:58 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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We will see now wont we?
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NGC4414
unknowable
Registered: 10/31/01
Posts: 174
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#521916 - 01/16/02 01:09 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Since Nostradamus' prophesies were all vaugley written riddles, they can be applied to all sorts of event based on the way someone reads into them.
It seems that most if not all generations throughout history expect (or wish for) something substantial to happen in their lifetime. Who is to say when something earth shattering is going to occur.
That being said, you can't say 100% that nothing will happen.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#521923 - 01/16/02 01:15 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Wasn't there a lot of things that did come true, especially from Nostradamus? I don't really know as I don't keep up with the prophets these days. ; )
I suppose people will always believe what they want to believe, and I don't think that's a bad thing, nor do I think it makes any real statements about the person. We all believe in intangibles. Americans believe that they're going to wipe out terrorism. Is that going to happen? Probably not. It's sort of sad in a way, but life goes on.
It's also something of a gamble we take. We can take the safe bet that these things are garbage if we decide to. Or, we can be the high rollers and put it all on the line. Think of how cool you'd feel if these things actually came true. I'd rather die like that than sitting there saying "No, this isn't how he predicted it! Where're the locusts huh? Show me some locusts and then I'll be impressed."
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: NGC4414]
#521929 - 01/16/02 01:23 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Since Nostradamus' prophesies were all vaugley written riddles, they can be applied to all sorts of event based on the way someone reads into them.
You will get no argument from me on that. However, this famous quatrain was one of the few to actually give a solid date.
The year thousand nine hundred ninety nine seven [ month / months ],
From the sky there will come a great King [ of fright / who chases away fright ]:
To bring back to life the great King of Angolmois,
Before after [ Mars / March ] to reign by good luck.
L'an mil neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois,
Du ciel viendra vn grand Roy d'effrayeur :
Resusciter le grand Roy d'Angolmois,
Auant apres Mars regner par bon heur.
It seems that most if not all generations throughout history expect (or wish for) something substantial to happen in their lifetime. Who is to say when something earth shattering is going to occur.
No one - which is my point.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#521934 - 01/16/02 01:37 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I suppose people will always believe what they want to believe, and I don't think that's a bad thing
Like slavery, because Negroes were believed to not have a soul like the white man?
Like all the people who had their lives ruined because they were believed to Communists in the McCarthy era?
Like the Germans believing the Jews were the scourge of the planet during the Holocaust?
Like the terrorists that believed they would go to Moslem heaven by killing Americans in a kamikaze attack?
Like the people that would put you away for 20 years for growing fungus in your closet because they believe you are a danger to society?
Like my acquaintance who committed suicide to meet the mothership out by the comet...
I find unsubstantiated belief to be for the weak-minded and v-e-r-y dangerous as it can easily lead to irrational acts.
And just where are the locusts?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#521957 - 01/16/02 02:02 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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And Nostradamus did not predict the end of the world in 1999...I assume you are reffering to this quatrain:
The year 1999 seven months,
From the sky will come a great King of terror:
To resurrect the great King of Angolmois,
Before after Mars to reign by good luck
This could be interpreted in any number of ways.
Here we have Quatrain VI-97
At forty-five degrees the sky will burn,
Fire to approach the great new city:
In an instant a great scattered flame will leap up,
When one will want to demand proof of the Normans.
New York City lies at 40.5 latitiude. Is it also coincidence that the region on Mars known as Cydonia where the purported monuments were found is roughly at 40N 5W?
It is interesting to note - that the Vikings, i.e. the 'Normans', are historically inseparable from the date AD 911, numerically resonating with the date of the attacks (9/11), for this was when the Carolingian king, Charles the Simple made Normandy a duchy under Rollo. Also, it is amusing to notice that the Transportation Secretary of the US who is in charge of overseeing the airlines and such is Norman Mineta at this time - when people are wanting his assurance that air travel is safe (i.e. demanding 'proof of Norman').
INCANTATION OF THE LAW AGAINST INEPT CRITICS
Let those who read this verse consider it profoundly,
Let the profane and the ignorant herd keep away:
And far away all Astrologers, Idiots and Barbarians,
May he who does otherwise be subject to the sacred rite.
In reply to:
Richard Hoagland stated that the 1976 picture taken by NASA of the Cydonia region of Mars was actually an alien artifact surrounded by pramids in alignment with those of Egypt. This area was rephotographed last year. The photo shows no anomolies, no face, no city or pyramids.
Oh really? What's this?
You may want to look at this also
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/09/03/mars.viking/index.html
In reply to:
Edward Cayce predicted that Atlantis along with death rays would be discoverd in 1968.
Was it found? No.
Perhaps Edgar Cayce just guessed the wrong time. You can't be 100% accurate telling the future. Anyway..how do you know Atlantis hasn't been found? Several ancient underwater cities have been discovered in the past few years. Such as this one
and this one
 
Edited by Shroomism (01/16/02 02:10 AM)
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
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Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#521969 - 01/16/02 02:18 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I suppose people will always believe what they want to believe, and I don't think that's a bad thing
Well, that statement was refering to people believing in random things like psychics, prophets, christianity... but yes swami, exactly like all those things you mentioned. Aren't blanket statements fun?
Let's see...
On one side of the scale we have a regular guy sitting in his living room believing that the world will end in whatever year for whatever reason. On the other side of the scale we have bin Laden believing that America is evil.
Everything is fairly balanced so far (if you don't count the fact that one is a regular fellow and the other is a world renowned terrorist).
Now, here's where things get tricky... I'll try and take it slow for you swami...
The next day one of those people talks on the internet before he goes to work. The other guy sends hijacked planes into buildings.
Well swami, I guess they are exactly the same. Who would've thought?
Keep up the good work.
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Edited by Ulysees (01/16/02 02:20 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#521970 - 01/16/02 02:19 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Ulysees: Show me some locusts and then I'll be impressed."
In reply to:
Swami: And just where are the locusts?
The locusts?
They are Here
And here
And here
And I'm sure in other places but I can't do all your research for you.
Edited by Shroomism (01/16/02 02:26 AM)
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#521975 - 01/16/02 02:25 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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>I suppose people will always believe what they want to believe, and I don't think that's a bad thing
Oh ya, I also had "bad" in italics. It's actually a fairly important detail and shouldn't be neglected when quoting someone. (I thought it looked odd. It really throws off the whole dynamic of the statement.)
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 ArchDruid
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#521977 - 01/16/02 02:26 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I tell you one thing, Im going to be really high all of 2003, so my dimension will shift!
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" I have decided to become an example for others, although I have never been one for moderation. I have decided never to eat LSD while asleep, never to refrain while awake, and to never eat less than 10 hits at a time."
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#521997 - 01/16/02 02:44 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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The next day one of those people talks on the internet before he goes to work. The other guy sends hijacked planes into buildings.
Well swami, I guess they are exactly the same. Who would've thought?
Yes, one guy at Rancho San Marguerita (i.e. Heaven's gate). was the normal guy on the internet (he WAS a computer software engineer) commits suicide with cyanide, and the Moslem believer commits suicide with an airplane.
Now, here's where things get tricky... I'll try and take it slow for you swami...
Ah, there is that unmitigated love that I often feel from the spiritually advanced on this board.
Let's see? Both people kill themselves because of some unsubstaniated belief relating to the after-life and you see no correlation?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522011 - 01/16/02 03:06 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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At forty-five degrees the sky will burn,
Fire to approach the great new city:
In an instant a great scattered flame will leap up,
When one will want to demand proof of the Normans.
New York City lies at 40.5 latitiude.
But not at 45 degrees. Nor does the quatrain suggest that the 45 is a map coordinate. A building could be tipping at a 45 degree angle. Also somewhat along that latitude are San Francicso, Chicago also new cities and even London, though not so new. So what? Some city that has a fire will lie at some latitude around the world except for the northermost and southernmost frigid regions. There is no time frame given nor a longitude.
Is it also coincidence that the region on Mars known as Cydonia where the purported monuments were found is roughly at 40N 5W?
Coincidental with what?
It is interesting to note - that the Vikings, i.e. the 'Normans', are historically inseparable from the date AD 911, numerically resonating with the date of the attacks (9/11), for this was when the Carolingian king, Charles the Simple made Normandy a duchy under Rollo. Also, it is amusing to notice that the Transportation Secretary of the US who is in charge of overseeing the airlines and such is Norman Mineta at this time - when people are wanting his assurance that air travel is safe (i.e. demanding 'proof of Norman').
Woo boy, you can sure stretch them thin, can't you? I appreciate your powers to associate unrelated objects, but that has nothing to do with logic. The name of the Normans whether in reference to the French or the Vikings has nothing to do with the Mideast connection nor NYC. Your numerology bit with the date is incredibly weak.
Oh really? What's this?
You may want to look at this also
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/09/03/mars.viking/index.html
Yes. More non-desript pictures that look nothing like a face. And your point is...?
Perhaps Edgar Cayce just guessed the wrong time. You can't be 100% accurate telling the future.
How about any degree of accuracy at all? Guessing is not prophecy, nor are vague ramblings that could be applied to thousands of situations. No one made him say 1968. That was of his own volition so he needs no defense. He was wrong - period!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522014 - 01/16/02 03:17 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Yes. More non-desript pictures that look nothing like a face. And your point is...?
My point is that you said:
"The photo shows no anomolies, no face, no city or pyramids."
Those pictures look like anomolies to me. In fact, I'd say it looks a lot like a face.
How about any degree of accuracy at all? Guessing is not prophecy, nor are vague ramblings that could be applied to thousands of situations. No one made him say 1968. That was of his own volition so he needs no defense. He was wrong - period!
Ok...so he was wrong. Big deal. Don't forget the fact that he healed thousands of people through very unconvential methods after some of the world's best doctors could not do anything. In many cases some people were sure to die as there were no known cures for what they had, and Casey was able to prescribe a specific treatment regimen that brought them back to perfect health. Please don't tell me I am bullshiting as this is very well documented. There is even an Edgar Casey hospital in Virginia.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522025 - 01/16/02 03:36 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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>Well swami, I guess they are exactly the same. Who would've thought?
Yes, one guy at Rancho San Marguerita (i.e. Heaven's gate). was the normal guy on the internet (he WAS a computer software engineer) commits suicide with cyanide, and the Moslem believer commits suicide with an airplane.
Who said the guy killed himself when he got home? I mentioned nothing about your aquaintence who killed himself in the Heavens Gate cult. (Who's leaping to rash conclusions now? "He WAS a computer software engineer." That doesn't qualify you as normal my friend.)
Even so, people kill themselves every day. Many kill themselves because their extremely normal reality is too hard for them to handle. Wait a second, I'm not talking about average random people here, I'm in fact talking about members of an elite group of scientists who got stranded on Antarctica! (I'm refering to the way you change my general statements into specific events for purpose of furthering your arguement.)
>Now, here's where things get tricky... I'll try and take it slow for you swami...
Ah, there is that unmitigated love that I often feel from the spiritually advanced on this board.
Not just spiritually advanced apparently.
>Let's see? Both people kill themselves because of some unsubstaniated belief relating to the after-life and you see no correlation?
Why don't you pull another suicide stat out of your ass to prove your point. Make sure you grab some common sense while you're up there.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522027 - 01/16/02 03:40 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Woo boy, you can sure stretch them thin, can't you? I appreciate your powers to associate unrelated objects, but that has nothing to do with logic.
?
Nice Swami... Nice. I should've just read that and quoted it back to you. It sounds like you could've argued against yourself quite well.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World
#522028 - 01/16/02 03:41 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why do you constantly compare my philosophies with that of suicide cults and brainwashed genocidal masses?
Finally a real question and a point of dialogue. Please answer without explanation, each of the following true/false questions. Leave your essay until the end of your post.
1. The people who found answers in the Heaven's Gate philosophy were attracted to this belief system because it filled a need in them and spoke to their heart.
True or false?
2. The Heaven's Gate philosophy was founded on a set of unprovable assumptions.
True or false?
3. The Heaven's Gate disciples believed that they were on a spiritually advanced path.
True or false?
4. The group as a whole was of below average intelligence.
True or false?
5. The Heaven's Gate philosopy spoke of suicide in the early days of it's forming.
True or false?
Now you're comparing me to Hitler... how illogical can you get?
Not once did I compare you to Hitler. I used the Holocaust as a powerful example in showing the dangers of taking someone else's viewpoint unquestioned. I am comparing the gullibility of people who take your ideas at face value with the gullibility of much of the WWII German nation.
A much more accurate comparison would be the gullible masses who panicked during the Halloween broadcast of "War of the Worlds". But that does not have as much impact as no one was seriously hurt in the USA. Although a rebroadcast in South America led outraged listeners (when they found it to be a hoax) to kill the disc jockeys that put on the play.
It has been stated by many that there is no danger in an unsubstantiated belief system and there certainly is. That is my point. I was not comparing your personality and motives to anyone else, only that you would like people to believe unverifiable stories and base their life and actions around said stories.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522031 - 01/16/02 03:50 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why don't you pull another suicide stat out of your ass to prove your point. Make sure you grab some common sense while you're up there.
Someone I met in my line of work was not a stat pulled out of my ass. I never paid any attention to all his comet / mothership babblings until I saw his body on TV. Perhaps I could have helped, perhaps not.
Either way, my intentions are noble whether or not you like my style and demeanor.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522032 - 01/16/02 03:50 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Now, here's where things get tricky... I'll try and take it slow for you swami...
Ah, there is that unmitigated love that I often feel from the spiritually advanced on this board.
No, that 'love' you feel is frustration from your fellow shroomerites at your attempts to make unsubstantiated comparisons from general statements.
I.e. - Comparing me to the Heaven's Gate Cult, Hitler, etc.
I guess you could connect anything with the right mindset. Like how you are like the guy that stands on the beach as a 300 foot tidal wave comes in shouting, "There's no proof of this Tidal Wave! Where are the data charts?!"
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522034 - 01/16/02 03:55 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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An object cannot be truely measured unless you use the appropirate tool for scale. If you compare a cherry bombs to a hand-grenade the hand-grenade will look pretty bad, correct? Now compare a hand-grenade to a nuclear weapon. Hand-grenade doesn't look so bad now, does it? What does this have to do with anything? It's a matter of scale in your comparisons: While the test you've prepared might seem to prove you right, you've essentially manipulated the comparison the same way you might by switching out nukes for grenades. There are many other questions that you neglected to put on it, in fact there's no way to even begin making up a fair test similar to that one.
Of course some people are going to freak out and kill themselves. They always have and they always will. If you're attempting to cleanse the world of every thing that causes that, you're going to be here for a long time.
Also notice that you don't hear many stories in the newspaper of how many people happily lived out their lives believing in an untold number of things. That stuff doesn't make the news. Mass murders will, but there's a lot more happening than that.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522035 - 01/16/02 03:56 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Those pictures look like anomolies to me. In fact, I'd say it looks a lot like a face.
Puh-lease. Post the latest pictures and take a poll. It looks like eroded sandstone.
Please don't tell me I am bullshiting as this is very well documented. There is even an Edgar Casey hospital in Virginia.
I lived in Virgina Beach and even visited the A.R.E. I read many of their books and those available at the public libraries.
Here is a take on said documents as found on the Skeptic's Dictionary:
According to Dale Beyerstein, "these documents are worthless by themselves" because they provide no way of distinguishing what Cayce discerned by psychic ability from information provided to him by his assistants, by letters from patients, or by simple observation. In short, the only evidence for Cayce's psychic doctoring is useless for testing his psychic powers. Nevertheless, it is the volume and alleged accuracy of his "cures" that seem to provide the main basis for belief in Cayce as a psychic. In fact, however, the support for his accuracy consists of little more than anecdotes and testimonials. There is no way to demonstrate that Cayce used psychic powers even on those cases where there is no dispute that he was instrumental in the cure.
It is true, however, that many people considered themselves cured by Cayce and that's enough evidence for true believers. It works! The fact that thousands don't consider themselves cured or can't rationalize an erroneous diagnosis won't deter the true believer. Gardner notes that Dr. J.B. Rhine, famous for his ESP experiments at Duke University, was not impressed with Cayce. Rhine felt that a psychic reading done for his daughter didn't fit the facts. Defenders of Cayce claim that if a patient has any doubts about Cayce, the diagnosis won't be a good one. Yet, what reasonable person wouldn't have doubts about such a man, no matter how kind or sincere he was?
Cayce's defenders provide some classic ad hoc hypotheses to explain away their hero's failures. For example, Cayce and a famous dowser named Henry Gross set out together to discover buried treasure along the seashore and found nothing. Their defenders suggested that their psychic powers were accurate because either there once was a buried treasure where they looked but it had been dug up earlier, or there would be a treasure buried there sometime in the future (one wonders why their psychic powers didn't discern this).
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522037 - 01/16/02 03:57 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Since I know little to nothing about the Heaven's Gate Cult... besides the fact that they commited mass suicide, I cannot answer your questions.
In reply to:
It has been stated by many that there is no danger in an unsubstantiated belief system and there certainly is. That is my point. I was not comparing your personality and motives to anyone else, only that you would like people to believe unverifiable stories and base their life and actions around said stories.
My point is that who are you to say that another person's beliefs are unsubstantiated?
And if you think I want people to base their life and actions around my stories, you are gravely mistaken. Perhaps you should read my threads a little closer.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
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Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522038 - 01/16/02 04:01 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Someone I met in my line of work was not a stat pulled out of my ass. I never paid any attention to all his comet / mothership babblings until I saw his body on TV. Perhaps I could have helped, perhaps not.
I was refering to the way you included something in the argument that had no reason for being there. I was talking about a person who went to work and talked to people on the internet while harbouring a belief in a prophets predictions. Out of your ass you turned that person into your aquaintance who killed himself. Your changing my random generic person into a man that you met at work cannot be pulled from anywhere but your ass.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522039 - 01/16/02 04:01 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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And by reading them closer I don't mean hacking up a page long statement into individual pieces and choosing certain sections and responding to each sentence as if it were by itself. Look at the big picture. Read between the lines.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522042 - 01/16/02 04:05 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Also notice that you don't hear many stories in the newspaper of how many people happily lived out their lives believing in an untold number of things.
Beliefs clash with other beliefs creating conflict. There is little possibility of truly peaceful co-existence.
My brother who is a Born-Again Christian of the evangelical bent, has alienated my mom, a Catholic, by telling her she was going to hell because she was not the right denomination of Christianity. Lots of love in that stance.
Belief basically is a superior and arrogant stance that wants to convert others to the"right" way of thinking.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522044 - 01/16/02 04:11 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Here is a take on said documents as found on the Skeptic's Dictionary:
And you believe the words of a skeptic over true facts? Sounds to me like someone has been following some of those dangerous unsubstantiated beliefs you talk so fondly about.
It is fact that Cayce healed many, many people that modern science at his time could not cure. It is well documented as well. I suppose now you are going to ask for proof, so off to the archives I go.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522046 - 01/16/02 04:13 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your changing my random generic person into a man that you met at work cannot be pulled from anywhere but your ass.
I made the erroneous assumption that you had probably read previous posts where I mentioned that I personally knew a member of the cult who killed himself. Which is why I am so vehement on this cause. So not random at all.
Crudeness is an indicator of maturity level, not cleverness.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
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Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522049 - 01/16/02 04:16 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Not always... for instance, the only time I argue about any of this stuff is right here in the Shroomery. I peacefully exist with many people. I might occasionaly offer things when I feel they are acceptable, but I don't push things on people. In fact, the only thing I'm advocating here is that you should stop pushing your beliefs on us. If you haven't noticed I haven't stated any affilation to any religion, group, cult, anything. Your brother sounds very self-righteous, that's not a very wise statement on his part at all. *If* anything it shows how much lower than some he really is. No "wise" person tries to push their beliefs on anyone. Arguing your right to harbour a belief is not the same as pushing it on others. You in fact started this thread by pushing your non-belief on whomever happened to stumble across it. (Btw: if you believe in non-belief it's a belief...)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522052 - 01/16/02 04:20 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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My point is that who are you to say that another person's beliefs are unsubstantiated?
I say that because there is nothing to subtantiate them, such as your mysterious 12th planet.
Things such as internal consistency and real-world results as a result of taking a particular stance would do for starters.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522053 - 01/16/02 04:21 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Belief basically is a superior and arrogant stance that wants to convert others to the"right" way of thinking.
Main Entry: be?lief
Pronunciation: b&-'lEf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan
Date: 12th century
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
Main Entry: self-righ?teous
Pronunciation: -'rI-ch&s
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1680
: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others : narrow-mindedly moralistic
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522055 - 01/16/02 04:27 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I made the erroneous assumption that you had probably read previous posts where I mentioned that I personally knew a member of the cult who killed himself. Which is why I am so vehement on this cause. So not random at all.
The assumption was not erroneous in the least. That doesn't change the fact that that the person I created was merely the person I created. Nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to change the parameters of the argument you could have created your own person in whatever liking you wanted. There is flaw in changing a constant mid experiment. Adding another to test to change the direction would be more acceptable.
Crudeness is an indicator of maturity level, not cleverness.
If you manage to squeeze it in as a slight like that does it then become clever? I would imagine you thought it over for a moment or two, then decided that either I wouldn't pick up on that detail, or it was worth sacrificing a little of your cleverness to show us that point.
Was it in referance to my statement of pulling something from ones ass? I'm sure even the most eloquent wordsmiths might stoop to something as low on such an occasion as this. We are, afterall, three people debating a topic. Nothing more.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522056 - 01/16/02 04:30 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I say that because there is nothing to subtantiate them, such as your mysterious 12th planet
See above description of belief.
The 12th planet is not mine, nor is it mysterious. Do some research....don't limit yourself to the skeptics webpage.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522059 - 01/16/02 04:32 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Shroomism's last post was especially poignant.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522060 - 01/16/02 04:34 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Well, second last now... and last I suppose.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522072 - 01/16/02 05:06 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Case in point:
In November, 1937.. Florence Evans, age 29, felt very ill. She was seen by Dr. Harold Maddox who was certain she had the flu. She was told to get plenty of rest and fluids. After a month, she grew no better. She noticed an odd hardening of flesh on her hips, which soon became worse and spread down her leg. Three separate doctors examined her all of whom were baffled by her symptoms.
Florence was taken to Nashville in January to enter the Haggard Clinic for tests. They assured her when the tests were over they would know what to do. After all the examination were done, the doctor said that Florence had a hardening and thickening of the skin, called scleroderma. They told her there have been 400 cases of this on record, and very few cases ever recovered from it. After several weeks of treatment, they said there was not really anything they could do.. her case was incurable.
Florence then went to Cayce, who examined her clairvoyantly. He stated that there were disturbances of a very subtle nature and unless there could be something to help resist the inroads of a tubercle in Florence's body, the condition would only worsen. He suggested the tubercle was making inroads in the respiratory system and the mucles, as well as the red blood cells.
To throw off these condition, he recomended castor oil packs applied over the abdominal area and also the lower part of the back up to the diaphragm. Also, Ventriculin in small quanitity should be taken twice daily. She should have beef juice often and little or no starchy foods.
Specific details as to quantities and times were given for the application of these treatments. The packs, to begin immediately, were to be continued "until there has been stayed this tendency for the formation of knots or clots by the blood supply attempting to make for coagulations; and thus forming in the muscular forces, and drainings upon the system at the same time, those hardened places - not only in the spinal area, but in the abdomen also.."
By May, she had improved so much the hardness was disappearing, her temperature was normal, and there were no more night sweats.
In the end, she was completely cured, of an "incurable disease"
She was able to regain her normal life and went on complete her musical education and became married.
This is just the short version of a long story taken from the Casey Archives. Hundreds of stories like this exist on many levels.
You said you visited the A.S.E center in Virginia...
Did you bother to read any of the 14,000 documented stenographic records of the telepathic-clairvoyant statements he had given for more than 6,000 different people?
Did you read any of the reports in the old newspapers on how modern doctors of the time called him "A wonder worker?"
Did you read any of the medical commentaries by the hundreds of doctors who were shocked that Casey had healed so many people who they had deemed "Uncurable"?
To call Casey a fraud is laughable....
See... I'm laughing... Ha.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522075 - 01/16/02 05:11 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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The Mind of the Fanatic
Wilmington Delaware News/September 23, 2001
By Steve K. Dubrow-Eichel
There was a time, James (not his real name) tells me, when he could have flown a fuel-laden jet into the World Trade Center.
To meet James, one would never imagine he could perpetrate such an horrific act. James currently works in the medical field; he is a gentle man, a loving husband and a father of two. Years ago, however, he was a fanatic, a follower of a charismatic religious leader and a full-time member of an extremist religious cult.
My colleagues and I have worked with hundreds of former cultists. Some were potential terrorists. The vast majority were not what one might expect. They were bright, idealistic, hard-working, self-sacrificing individuals who believed strongly, completely, in the justness of their causes. With rare exception, their fanaticism was rooted in a sincere intention to right wrongs, "clean up" sins, impurities or injustices, establish a society fully compliant with what they felt certain was God's will.
Sometimes, the only thing that separates the fanatic next door from the fanatic terrorist are the number of followers, amount of money, and availability of military hardware. Lest we forget, members of the fanatical Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo were actively seeking weapons of mass destruction that would have caused devastation dwarfing their Tokyo subway gassings, and even the mass murders of September 11. Closer to home, extremist groups like the Branch Dividians are, or have been, armed and anticipating the initiation of Armaggedon.
To understand the mindset of fanatics, closely examine their propaganda. They sound strikingly like hygienists, who seek to "clean" or "sanitize" an environment in order to make it a "healthier" place to live. Fanatics utilize "us vs. them" language to divide the world in a polarized manner between that-which-promotes-health vs. that-which-causes-illness. The actions necessary for "hygiene" and "health" then become logical as well as obvious: Destroy that which causes or encourages disease. To the hygienist, that means destroying germs and their breeding grounds. To the fanatic, that means subjugating, imprisoning, "reeducating," and, if all else fails, destroying "diseased" people.
Fanaticism often begins with a sudden, dramatic shift in world-view, often due to an overwhelmingly disturbing experience that is not readily explainable using "ordinary" or familiar frameworks. Sometimes this involves betrayals and deep disappointments at the hands of close friends, family, loved ones, or a group/cause with which one strongly identifies. (Osama bin-Laden fits into this mold.) Discarding beliefs and allegiances that related to a profound betrayal can feel thoroughly liberating. The second step on the road to fanaticism is exposure to a fanatic ideology (and, sadly, there are religious and political philosophies that lend themselves easily to this mindset). The third step usually involves a personal connection to a charismatic leader who appears to embody the "purity" promised by the ideology. The final step requires the internalization of information control: The fanatic's new ideology and personal allegiances must be strengthened and reinforced through the demand to be ever-vigilant against "wrong" thinking, to deny and denigrate information from "outside" sources, and to confess any and all doubts and questioning of one's faith. Over time, the new identity solidifies and the "old" self becomes equated with the very "disease" that must be eradicated. The fanatic does not distinguish between military personnel and civilians because they (we) are all germs capable of infecting those who would otherwise become or remain "pure."
I do not believe we can ever completely eliminate fanaticism. The causes are too varied, too complex, and I can think of no "cure" that does not invoke the "illness" of fanaticism itself. To invert what the late Senator Barry Goldwater once said, extremism--even in the defense of liberty--is indeed a vice. Under the right conditions, most of us can become susceptible to fanatical ideologies. That is why, in a democracy, it is so important to not only tolerate, but welcome dissent and debate. We must challenge ourselves when we are drawn toward demonizing beliefs or lifestyles that feel foreign or repugnant, even as we protest them.
And when left with no choice but to fight and wage war, we need to resist the temptation to view our enemies as less than human--as germs or vermin--lest we find ourselves one day looking into the mirror and realizing that we have found the fanatics, and they are us.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522077 - 01/16/02 05:20 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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What is your point? Are you calling me or Ulysees a fanatic?
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522078 - 01/16/02 05:22 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Fanatics utilize "us vs. them" language to divide the world in a polarized manner between that-which-promotes-health vs. that-which-causes-illness. The actions necessary for "hygiene" and "health" then become logical as well as obvious: Destroy that which causes or encourages disease. To the hygienist, that means destroying germs and their breeding grounds. To the fanatic, that means subjugating, imprisoning, "reeducating," and, if all else fails, destroying "diseased" people.
The second step on the road to fanaticism is exposure to a fanatic ideology (and, sadly, there are religious and political philosophies that lend themselves easily to this mindset).
The final step requires the internalization of information control: The fanatic's new ideology and personal allegiances must be strengthened and reinforced through the demand to be ever-vigilant against "wrong" thinking, to deny and denigrate information from "outside" sources, and to confess any and all doubts and questioning of one's faith.
I do not believe we can ever completely eliminate fanaticism. The causes are too varied, too complex, and I can think of no "cure" that does not invoke the "illness" of fanaticism itself. To invert what the late Senator Barry Goldwater once said, extremism--even in the defense of liberty--is indeed a vice. Under the right conditions, most of us can become susceptible to fanatical ideologies. That is why, in a democracy, it is so important to not only tolerate, but welcome dissent and debate. We must challenge ourselves when we are drawn toward demonizing beliefs or lifestyles that feel foreign or repugnant, even as we protest them.
And when left with no choice but to fight and wage war, we need to resist the temptation to view our enemies as less than human--as germs or vermin--lest we find ourselves one day looking into the mirror and realizing that we have found the fanatics, and they are us.
my my my...
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522079 - 01/16/02 05:23 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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If he's calling either of us a fanatic he's calling all of us fanatics. After reading that, it's clear to me what I've suspected all along. The ideology has taken over the host, he just assumes it's me and you who've fallen victim to it.
Re-read some of that, especially that which I've cut out, but the whole document is just as good. (I didn't think I'd be quoting so much of it when I started.)
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Edited by Ulysees (01/16/02 05:27 AM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522080 - 01/16/02 05:23 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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To call Casey a fraud is laughable....
*sigh* I said that Casey's prediction, which was solid and would be real-world proof of paranormal prowess did not come to pass. The word fraud was never used anywhere.
Yes, I have read many, but not most, of the documents.Your anecdote is interesting, but many who visited were not cured, and many were completely misdiagnosed. The "misses" are not highly publicized like the "hits" are.Testimonials, however, are notoriously unreliable, and there are no discussions of statistics or methodological issues.
Apparently, no statistics on the percentage of cases cured exist, and one must decide whether the "cures" recorded were due to Cayce's miraculous psychic insight or to a combination of the placebo effect, natural recoveries, patient selection, good common sense, dumb luck, cold reading techniques, and vague changes counted as successes.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522081 - 01/16/02 05:26 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok swami you win. I give up.
I'm a cult leader and our goal is to kill the inferior race (everyone but us) and then commit mass suicide so we can merge with the mothership hiding behind the moon.
Happy now?
Jesus....
(Goes outside in a fit of laughing hysterics)
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522082 - 01/16/02 05:30 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Apparently, no statistics on the percentage of cases cured exist, and one must decide whether the "cures" recorded were due to Cayce's miraculous psychic insight or to a combination of the placebo effect, natural recoveries, patient selection, good common sense, dumb luck, cold reading techniques, and vague changes counted as successes.
Who cares how it happened? The point is it worked. The reason not very many "misses" were not recorded is based on the basic fact that were not very many of them. I remember reading somewhere the ratio of "Hits" vs. "misses" were somewhere in the area of 600:1.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522083 - 01/16/02 05:30 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Damn, two posts while I was editing (adding to) my last one... that always sucks.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522084 - 01/16/02 05:31 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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I called no one a fanatic.
This article was about a man who started from a place of caring and wanting to do the right thing and got carried away to a place where he could rationalize irrational acts.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522085 - 01/16/02 05:34 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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>The reason not very many "misses" were not recorded is based on the basic fact that were not very many of them.
And the fact that most people were probably not consumed with the need to condemn the guy. It's our modern society that truly thrives on the failures and shortcomings of others. We're the ones who dwell on the misses and ignore the hits. We're the ones who only believe in failures as truth. Look at the checkout line of any grocery/drug/conveinience store.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522086 - 01/16/02 05:34 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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So you were not implying anything by posting that article? Then what was the point?
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522087 - 01/16/02 05:35 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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>This article was about a man who started from a place of caring and wanting to do the right thing and got carried away to a place where he could rationalize irrational acts.
Yes, such as yourself. You mean well, that much is obvious, but that's where it seems to end.
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Edited by Ulysees (01/16/02 05:36 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522088 - 01/16/02 05:36 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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After reading that article several times, I think it describes Swami just as much as it does either of us.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522089 - 01/16/02 05:36 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok swami you win. I give up.
I'm a cult leader and our goal is to kill the inferior race (everyone but us) and then commit mass suicide so we can merge with the mothership hiding behind the moon.
Happy now?
Jesus....
(Goes outside in a fit of laughing hysterics)
Laugh away. I did not make up the comet/mothership connection. I see no qualitative difference between that and your sci-fi scenarios.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522090 - 01/16/02 05:40 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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If it describes any of us it definately describes Swami just as well.
The irony... If I had that article I would've posted it too.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522092 - 01/16/02 05:41 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Laugh away. I did not make up the comet/mothership connection. I see no qualitative difference between that and your sci-fi scenarios.
You see no difference? Well I mean I can understand if you don't understand the difference between an orange or an apple...I mean...they are both fruit after all.
But tell me, how are my writings dangerous to other people? What is my philosophy?
Seriously, I want to know what you think.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522097 - 01/16/02 05:47 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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They were bright, idealistic, hard-working, self-sacrificing individuals who believed strongly, completely, in the justness of their causes. With rare exception, their fanaticism was rooted in a sincere intention to right wrongs, "clean up" sins, impurities or injustices, establish a society fully compliant with what they felt certain was God's will.
After reading that article several times, I think it describes Swami just as much as it does either of us.
Perhaps. However, I make NO claims on the future, the end of the world, life after death or knowing the mind of God.
I tell no one WHAT position to take. I have NO religious or societal agenda. I am not trying to win anyone over to "my Way" of thinking except to say,"Validate your own position through critical thinking instead of blind acceptance."
Does that message so disturb you?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522100 - 01/16/02 05:49 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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>You see no difference? Well I mean I can understand if you don't understand the difference between an orange or an apple...I mean...they are both fruit after all.
But tell me, how are my writings dangerous to other people? What is my philosophy?
Seriously, I want to know what you think.
That's the thing. I mentioned something earlier about comparing cherry bombs to hand grenades and hand grenades to nuclear weapons... Perhaps you're a hand grenade. If he compares you against a cherry bomb, you're going to look pretty bad. If he compares you to a nuclear bomb, you're going to look pretty miniscule... I don't know where exactly I'm going with this anymore, I should leave, but it has something to do with taking an accurate measurement. Before accurate increments were invented and used, people would measure their horses with their hands. Well, if I said I had a huge horse, that doesn't mean much. Perhaps my hands are small, perhaps the horse is gargantuan...
There's no scale that's accurate for measuring threats like this... Swami thinks his hands are accurate, but I've never seen Swami's hands, so the whole argument is based solely on his perception.
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Edited by Ulysees (01/16/02 05:52 AM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522105 - 01/16/02 06:02 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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Perhaps. However, I make NO claims on the future, the end of the world, life after death or knowing the mind of God.
I tell no one WHAT position to take. I have NO religious or societal agenda. I am not trying to win anyone over to "my Way" of thinking except to say,"Validate your own position through critical thinking instead of blind acceptance."
And that is why you are Swami and I am Shroomism.
I am not trying to "win" anyone over to my way of thinking, only to find like-minded individuals who like to discuss these issues. (Which seems to work...even with the people who don't agree)
My philosophy is that everyone is a spiritual being living a series of physical existances in which they gain wisdom and grow through personal experience...eventually to transcend the material plane and merge with the essence of Creation as one as it was in the beginning. The only thing I have ever stated that you must do is to choose to live life serving other or serving yourself in order to get into the 4th density. I don't say this because I imagined it, I say it because that is the way it is.
I don't tell people how to live their lives or that they must obey my commands. I am merely a teacher of things spiritual and my purpose is to help awaken the mass consciousness to this spiritual level.
You are on the science side of things, and therefore question anything that cannot be proven. Which is fine.
My point is...that somewhere along the line the spiritual community and scientific community will have to reach a middle ground.
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Divine_Madness
member
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 182
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522332 - 01/16/02 11:15 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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You are all wrong and talking bullshit.
Look critically at your beliefs and sources. I havent found any site on the internet wich convinses me their is a planet heading to us or something, nor do many other spiritual and alien theories sound to me as truth.
But I also havent found a single site which puts me to think it cant be true.
The things I read here lack of reasonable thinking. Swami is clearly skipping stuff from shroomism and visa versa, and both of you do not seem to be able to look clearly at your ideas.
Im sorry, right now I cant think straight, so it seems a bit fage what I am trying to tell.
But just realize that you can choose your own truth, and live happily in it, knowing everything is just illusion. Dont try to push it onto others if they do not want to accept it.
Just share your ideas to enlighten people with a new option in their life, not to exclude any.
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its all placebo
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Divine_Madness
member
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 182
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Divine_Madness]
#522334 - 01/16/02 11:17 AM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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And I forgot to read the last 20 posts or so...
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its all placebo
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Traveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#523011 - 01/16/02 11:20 PM (22 years, 10 months ago) |
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beef juice?
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