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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World  [Re: ]
#522035 - 01/16/02 03:56 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Those pictures look like anomolies to me. In fact, I'd say it looks a lot like a face.
Puh-lease. Post the latest pictures and take a poll. It looks like eroded sandstone.
Please don't tell me I am bullshiting as this is very well documented. There is even an Edgar Casey hospital in Virginia.
I lived in Virgina Beach and even visited the A.R.E. I read many of their books and those available at the public libraries.
Here is a take on said documents as found on the Skeptic's Dictionary:
According to Dale Beyerstein, "these documents are worthless by themselves" because they provide no way of distinguishing what Cayce discerned by psychic ability from information provided to him by his assistants, by letters from patients, or by simple observation. In short, the only evidence for Cayce's psychic doctoring is useless for testing his psychic powers. Nevertheless, it is the volume and alleged accuracy of his "cures" that seem to provide the main basis for belief in Cayce as a psychic. In fact, however, the support for his accuracy consists of little more than anecdotes and testimonials. There is no way to demonstrate that Cayce used psychic powers even on those cases where there is no dispute that he was instrumental in the cure.
It is true, however, that many people considered themselves cured by Cayce and that's enough evidence for true believers. It works! The fact that thousands don't consider themselves cured or can't rationalize an erroneous diagnosis won't deter the true believer. Gardner notes that Dr. J.B. Rhine, famous for his ESP experiments at Duke University, was not impressed with Cayce. Rhine felt that a psychic reading done for his daughter didn't fit the facts. Defenders of Cayce claim that if a patient has any doubts about Cayce, the diagnosis won't be a good one. Yet, what reasonable person wouldn't have doubts about such a man, no matter how kind or sincere he was?
Cayce's defenders provide some classic ad hoc hypotheses to explain away their hero's failures. For example, Cayce and a famous dowser named Henry Gross set out together to discover buried treasure along the seashore and found nothing. Their defenders suggested that their psychic powers were accurate because either there once was a buried treasure where they looked but it had been dug up earlier, or there would be a treasure buried there sometime in the future (one wonders why their psychic powers didn't discern this).
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522037 - 01/16/02 03:57 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Since I know little to nothing about the Heaven's Gate Cult... besides the fact that they commited mass suicide, I cannot answer your questions.
In reply to:
It has been stated by many that there is no danger in an unsubstantiated belief system and there certainly is. That is my point. I was not comparing your personality and motives to anyone else, only that you would like people to believe unverifiable stories and base their life and actions around said stories.
My point is that who are you to say that another person's beliefs are unsubstantiated?
And if you think I want people to base their life and actions around my stories, you are gravely mistaken. Perhaps you should read my threads a little closer.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522038 - 01/16/02 04:01 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Someone I met in my line of work was not a stat pulled out of my ass. I never paid any attention to all his comet / mothership babblings until I saw his body on TV. Perhaps I could have helped, perhaps not.
I was refering to the way you included something in the argument that had no reason for being there. I was talking about a person who went to work and talked to people on the internet while harbouring a belief in a prophets predictions. Out of your ass you turned that person into your aquaintance who killed himself. Your changing my random generic person into a man that you met at work cannot be pulled from anywhere but your ass.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522039 - 01/16/02 04:01 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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And by reading them closer I don't mean hacking up a page long statement into individual pieces and choosing certain sections and responding to each sentence as if it were by itself. Look at the big picture. Read between the lines.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522042 - 01/16/02 04:05 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Also notice that you don't hear many stories in the newspaper of how many people happily lived out their lives believing in an untold number of things.
Beliefs clash with other beliefs creating conflict. There is little possibility of truly peaceful co-existence.
My brother who is a Born-Again Christian of the evangelical bent, has alienated my mom, a Catholic, by telling her she was going to hell because she was not the right denomination of Christianity. Lots of love in that stance.
Belief basically is a superior and arrogant stance that wants to convert others to the"right" way of thinking.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522044 - 01/16/02 04:11 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Here is a take on said documents as found on the Skeptic's Dictionary:
And you believe the words of a skeptic over true facts? Sounds to me like someone has been following some of those dangerous unsubstantiated beliefs you talk so fondly about.
It is fact that Cayce healed many, many people that modern science at his time could not cure. It is well documented as well. I suppose now you are going to ask for proof, so off to the archives I go.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522046 - 01/16/02 04:13 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Your changing my random generic person into a man that you met at work cannot be pulled from anywhere but your ass.
I made the erroneous assumption that you had probably read previous posts where I mentioned that I personally knew a member of the cult who killed himself. Which is why I am so vehement on this cause. So not random at all.
Crudeness is an indicator of maturity level, not cleverness.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522049 - 01/16/02 04:16 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not always... for instance, the only time I argue about any of this stuff is right here in the Shroomery. I peacefully exist with many people. I might occasionaly offer things when I feel they are acceptable, but I don't push things on people. In fact, the only thing I'm advocating here is that you should stop pushing your beliefs on us. If you haven't noticed I haven't stated any affilation to any religion, group, cult, anything. Your brother sounds very self-righteous, that's not a very wise statement on his part at all. *If* anything it shows how much lower than some he really is. No "wise" person tries to push their beliefs on anyone. Arguing your right to harbour a belief is not the same as pushing it on others. You in fact started this thread by pushing your non-belief on whomever happened to stumble across it. (Btw: if you believe in non-belief it's a belief...)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522052 - 01/16/02 04:20 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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My point is that who are you to say that another person's beliefs are unsubstantiated?
I say that because there is nothing to subtantiate them, such as your mysterious 12th planet.
Things such as internal consistency and real-world results as a result of taking a particular stance would do for starters.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522053 - 01/16/02 04:21 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Belief basically is a superior and arrogant stance that wants to convert others to the"right" way of thinking.
Main Entry: be?lief
Pronunciation: b&-'lEf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan
Date: 12th century
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
Main Entry: self-righ?teous
Pronunciation: -'rI-ch&s
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1680
: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others : narrow-mindedly moralistic
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522055 - 01/16/02 04:27 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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I made the erroneous assumption that you had probably read previous posts where I mentioned that I personally knew a member of the cult who killed himself. Which is why I am so vehement on this cause. So not random at all.
The assumption was not erroneous in the least. That doesn't change the fact that that the person I created was merely the person I created. Nothing more, nothing less. If you wanted to change the parameters of the argument you could have created your own person in whatever liking you wanted. There is flaw in changing a constant mid experiment. Adding another to test to change the direction would be more acceptable.
Crudeness is an indicator of maturity level, not cleverness.
If you manage to squeeze it in as a slight like that does it then become clever? I would imagine you thought it over for a moment or two, then decided that either I wouldn't pick up on that detail, or it was worth sacrificing a little of your cleverness to show us that point.
Was it in referance to my statement of pulling something from ones ass? I'm sure even the most eloquent wordsmiths might stoop to something as low on such an occasion as this. We are, afterall, three people debating a topic. Nothing more.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522056 - 01/16/02 04:30 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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I say that because there is nothing to subtantiate them, such as your mysterious 12th planet
See above description of belief.
The 12th planet is not mine, nor is it mysterious. Do some research....don't limit yourself to the skeptics webpage.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522059 - 01/16/02 04:32 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Shroomism's last post was especially poignant.
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522060 - 01/16/02 04:34 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, second last now... and last I suppose.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522072 - 01/16/02 05:06 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Case in point:
In November, 1937.. Florence Evans, age 29, felt very ill. She was seen by Dr. Harold Maddox who was certain she had the flu. She was told to get plenty of rest and fluids. After a month, she grew no better. She noticed an odd hardening of flesh on her hips, which soon became worse and spread down her leg. Three separate doctors examined her all of whom were baffled by her symptoms.
Florence was taken to Nashville in January to enter the Haggard Clinic for tests. They assured her when the tests were over they would know what to do. After all the examination were done, the doctor said that Florence had a hardening and thickening of the skin, called scleroderma. They told her there have been 400 cases of this on record, and very few cases ever recovered from it. After several weeks of treatment, they said there was not really anything they could do.. her case was incurable.
Florence then went to Cayce, who examined her clairvoyantly. He stated that there were disturbances of a very subtle nature and unless there could be something to help resist the inroads of a tubercle in Florence's body, the condition would only worsen. He suggested the tubercle was making inroads in the respiratory system and the mucles, as well as the red blood cells.
To throw off these condition, he recomended castor oil packs applied over the abdominal area and also the lower part of the back up to the diaphragm. Also, Ventriculin in small quanitity should be taken twice daily. She should have beef juice often and little or no starchy foods.
Specific details as to quantities and times were given for the application of these treatments. The packs, to begin immediately, were to be continued "until there has been stayed this tendency for the formation of knots or clots by the blood supply attempting to make for coagulations; and thus forming in the muscular forces, and drainings upon the system at the same time, those hardened places - not only in the spinal area, but in the abdomen also.."
By May, she had improved so much the hardness was disappearing, her temperature was normal, and there were no more night sweats.
In the end, she was completely cured, of an "incurable disease"
She was able to regain her normal life and went on complete her musical education and became married.
This is just the short version of a long story taken from the Casey Archives. Hundreds of stories like this exist on many levels.
You said you visited the A.S.E center in Virginia...
Did you bother to read any of the 14,000 documented stenographic records of the telepathic-clairvoyant statements he had given for more than 6,000 different people?
Did you read any of the reports in the old newspapers on how modern doctors of the time called him "A wonder worker?"
Did you read any of the medical commentaries by the hundreds of doctors who were shocked that Casey had healed so many people who they had deemed "Uncurable"?
To call Casey a fraud is laughable....
See... I'm laughing... Ha.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Ulysees]
#522075 - 01/16/02 05:11 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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The Mind of the Fanatic
Wilmington Delaware News/September 23, 2001
By Steve K. Dubrow-Eichel
There was a time, James (not his real name) tells me, when he could have flown a fuel-laden jet into the World Trade Center.
To meet James, one would never imagine he could perpetrate such an horrific act. James currently works in the medical field; he is a gentle man, a loving husband and a father of two. Years ago, however, he was a fanatic, a follower of a charismatic religious leader and a full-time member of an extremist religious cult.
My colleagues and I have worked with hundreds of former cultists. Some were potential terrorists. The vast majority were not what one might expect. They were bright, idealistic, hard-working, self-sacrificing individuals who believed strongly, completely, in the justness of their causes. With rare exception, their fanaticism was rooted in a sincere intention to right wrongs, "clean up" sins, impurities or injustices, establish a society fully compliant with what they felt certain was God's will.
Sometimes, the only thing that separates the fanatic next door from the fanatic terrorist are the number of followers, amount of money, and availability of military hardware. Lest we forget, members of the fanatical Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo were actively seeking weapons of mass destruction that would have caused devastation dwarfing their Tokyo subway gassings, and even the mass murders of September 11. Closer to home, extremist groups like the Branch Dividians are, or have been, armed and anticipating the initiation of Armaggedon.
To understand the mindset of fanatics, closely examine their propaganda. They sound strikingly like hygienists, who seek to "clean" or "sanitize" an environment in order to make it a "healthier" place to live. Fanatics utilize "us vs. them" language to divide the world in a polarized manner between that-which-promotes-health vs. that-which-causes-illness. The actions necessary for "hygiene" and "health" then become logical as well as obvious: Destroy that which causes or encourages disease. To the hygienist, that means destroying germs and their breeding grounds. To the fanatic, that means subjugating, imprisoning, "reeducating," and, if all else fails, destroying "diseased" people.
Fanaticism often begins with a sudden, dramatic shift in world-view, often due to an overwhelmingly disturbing experience that is not readily explainable using "ordinary" or familiar frameworks. Sometimes this involves betrayals and deep disappointments at the hands of close friends, family, loved ones, or a group/cause with which one strongly identifies. (Osama bin-Laden fits into this mold.) Discarding beliefs and allegiances that related to a profound betrayal can feel thoroughly liberating. The second step on the road to fanaticism is exposure to a fanatic ideology (and, sadly, there are religious and political philosophies that lend themselves easily to this mindset). The third step usually involves a personal connection to a charismatic leader who appears to embody the "purity" promised by the ideology. The final step requires the internalization of information control: The fanatic's new ideology and personal allegiances must be strengthened and reinforced through the demand to be ever-vigilant against "wrong" thinking, to deny and denigrate information from "outside" sources, and to confess any and all doubts and questioning of one's faith. Over time, the new identity solidifies and the "old" self becomes equated with the very "disease" that must be eradicated. The fanatic does not distinguish between military personnel and civilians because they (we) are all germs capable of infecting those who would otherwise become or remain "pure."
I do not believe we can ever completely eliminate fanaticism. The causes are too varied, too complex, and I can think of no "cure" that does not invoke the "illness" of fanaticism itself. To invert what the late Senator Barry Goldwater once said, extremism--even in the defense of liberty--is indeed a vice. Under the right conditions, most of us can become susceptible to fanatical ideologies. That is why, in a democracy, it is so important to not only tolerate, but welcome dissent and debate. We must challenge ourselves when we are drawn toward demonizing beliefs or lifestyles that feel foreign or repugnant, even as we protest them.
And when left with no choice but to fight and wage war, we need to resist the temptation to view our enemies as less than human--as germs or vermin--lest we find ourselves one day looking into the mirror and realizing that we have found the fanatics, and they are us.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522077 - 01/16/02 05:20 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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What is your point? Are you calling me or Ulysees a fanatic?
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: Swami]
#522078 - 01/16/02 05:22 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fanatics utilize "us vs. them" language to divide the world in a polarized manner between that-which-promotes-health vs. that-which-causes-illness. The actions necessary for "hygiene" and "health" then become logical as well as obvious: Destroy that which causes or encourages disease. To the hygienist, that means destroying germs and their breeding grounds. To the fanatic, that means subjugating, imprisoning, "reeducating," and, if all else fails, destroying "diseased" people.
The second step on the road to fanaticism is exposure to a fanatic ideology (and, sadly, there are religious and political philosophies that lend themselves easily to this mindset).
The final step requires the internalization of information control: The fanatic's new ideology and personal allegiances must be strengthened and reinforced through the demand to be ever-vigilant against "wrong" thinking, to deny and denigrate information from "outside" sources, and to confess any and all doubts and questioning of one's faith.
I do not believe we can ever completely eliminate fanaticism. The causes are too varied, too complex, and I can think of no "cure" that does not invoke the "illness" of fanaticism itself. To invert what the late Senator Barry Goldwater once said, extremism--even in the defense of liberty--is indeed a vice. Under the right conditions, most of us can become susceptible to fanatical ideologies. That is why, in a democracy, it is so important to not only tolerate, but welcome dissent and debate. We must challenge ourselves when we are drawn toward demonizing beliefs or lifestyles that feel foreign or repugnant, even as we protest them.
And when left with no choice but to fight and wage war, we need to resist the temptation to view our enemies as less than human--as germs or vermin--lest we find ourselves one day looking into the mirror and realizing that we have found the fanatics, and they are us.
my my my...
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Ulysees
Power of Lard
Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
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 Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522079 - 01/16/02 05:23 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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If he's calling either of us a fanatic he's calling all of us fanatics. After reading that, it's clear to me what I've suspected all along. The ideology has taken over the host, he just assumes it's me and you who've fallen victim to it.
Re-read some of that, especially that which I've cut out, but the whole document is just as good. (I didn't think I'd be quoting so much of it when I started.)
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Edited by Ulysees (01/16/02 05:27 AM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Nostradamus and The End of the World [Re: ]
#522080 - 01/16/02 05:23 AM (21 years, 8 months ago) |
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To call Casey a fraud is laughable....
*sigh* I said that Casey's prediction, which was solid and would be real-world proof of paranormal prowess did not come to pass. The word fraud was never used anywhere.
Yes, I have read many, but not most, of the documents.Your anecdote is interesting, but many who visited were not cured, and many were completely misdiagnosed. The "misses" are not highly publicized like the "hits" are.Testimonials, however, are notoriously unreliable, and there are no discussions of statistics or methodological issues.
Apparently, no statistics on the percentage of cases cured exist, and one must decide whether the "cures" recorded were due to Cayce's miraculous psychic insight or to a combination of the placebo effect, natural recoveries, patient selection, good common sense, dumb luck, cold reading techniques, and vague changes counted as successes.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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