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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Money is NOT the root of all evil!
    #5217659 - 01/24/06 02:33 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears not all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor?your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions?and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made?before it can be looted or mooched?made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.'

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss?the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery?that you must offer them values, not wounds?that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by trade?with reason, not force, as their final arbiter?it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability?and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality?the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth?the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve the mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money?and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another?their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich?will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt?and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard?the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money?the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law?men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims?then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion?when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing?when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors?when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you?when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice?you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world? You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood?money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves?slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer, Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers?as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money?and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being?the self-made man?the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose?because it contains all the others?the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity?to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted of obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide? as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns?or dollars. Take your choice?there is no other?and your time is running out."

Atlas Shrugged





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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5217686 - 01/24/06 02:39 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I only read half but so far so good. Now its time for lunch....

I beleave every word though!!!!


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5217714 - 01/24/06 02:45 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
--Timothy 6:10





:grin:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Veritas]
    #5217724 - 01/24/06 02:48 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Love, in my view, entails honor and respect. Timothy had it completely backwards. Perhaps he was born ass first. :grin:



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5217732 - 01/24/06 02:51 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Perhaps this is related to the Buddhist concept of desire resulting in suffering? 

(They did come first. :wink:)


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Veritas]
    #5217802 - 01/24/06 03:13 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

so money is not the root of all evil because its necassary? I say Evil is never necassecary, just cause its not feasible in our society doesnt mean its not Evil it only means our society is so fucked up we have to make excuses. This proves nothing. its a blind fools attempt to justify his own Evils. there is no rational human who can say that money isnt evil. And this guy actually says that it is the root of all good that america actually is the greatest country ever becuase it "decided to make money" or in other words more evil? for every dollar made someone else loses the same, and is put down that much more. Money is control of the poor by the rich. I bet the guy who wrote that was rich.

The goddamn nerve it must take to be that much of an asshole ahhh it boggles my mind.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Veritas]
    #5217882 - 01/24/06 03:33 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Perhaps it is really related to a disintegrated philisophy as a result of "taking off from where the last generation left", taking over unanalyzed and unreduced the context of man's predecessors - including all of their contradictions, non-sequiturs and dead ends. Such a policy halts progress in the humanities, and has done precisely that.

Ergo, various men began philosophizing in mid-stream, and so they implicitly include any irrational metaphysics, irrational epistemology and malevolent ethics - such as the notion that an existent [e.g., money] will inherently provide them with -insert intangible benefit-, and that he knows this via faith or a priori knowledge, and that he must take actions which correspond to his notions of subjective value, and so on.




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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5217909 - 01/24/06 03:42 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

hording money for separation is evil !


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5217977 - 01/24/06 04:02 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Money isn't evil in itself, but it is often the object of greed. And greed is most definitely evil.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5218023 - 01/24/06 04:27 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

And the best is, if you have all what you need, you can say..."f**k you with all your f***g d***d %&%?/ ?%?"/&$ money !
You don't interest, concern, belong, consider me anymore.

Bet 1 million for my garden ? Seek hell, will be better for you !"


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (01/24/06 04:33 PM)


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5218150 - 01/24/06 05:09 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

There could be no greed if there was no notion of value...


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5218171 - 01/24/06 05:15 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

"Love of money is the root of all evil."

That one word makes a significant difference. As Ram Dass said in BE HERE NOW, "money is green energy," and this is helpful. Money as energy does not assign any moral value to it any more than to the element Plutonium which (named after the Roman god of the underworld) is terribly poisonous and carcinogenic, and which destroyed the city and inhabitants of Nagasaki, but can also provide electricity to millions of people. Energy can be used or misused by people whose intentions are the determining moral factor. Evil is not an intrinsic quality of any created thing, it is a quality of intentionality (the only invariant feature of consciousness for phenomenologists).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5218180 - 01/24/06 05:17 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Guns are inherintly evil man so are bombs, there is no reason for them


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5218184 - 01/24/06 05:18 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Dire need is the root of all evil.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5218203 - 01/24/06 05:22 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

nope the rich bastards who run everythign adn give nothing back have no "dire need" for more money, they are just evil assholes.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5218213 - 01/24/06 05:26 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Seeing a human being as an evil asshole, rather than a human who performs evil acts, is an unhealthy and disturbed view.

Irrationality is the root of all evil.


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Offlinevegitative
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5218233 - 01/24/06 05:29 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

I disagree completely with this, we don't need money to be used as a tool to trade products for other products. Money is only an excuse to help lazy people do less and less as they see fit. Getting money for doing one piece of work, and getting more than another person doing an equal effort or much more effort is the root of our problems. If we did away with money, what would happen to all of the CEOs out there? They would be reduced to the equivalent of the working class and the system would be broken. We would have an equal-opportunity system of trade where all people have the same chances and gain other's products based on the effort they put in.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: vegitative]
    #5218241 - 01/24/06 05:31 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

money =/= wealth


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5218253 - 01/24/06 05:34 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Mathematic symbols are the root of all evil.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: vegitative]
    #5218255 - 01/24/06 05:35 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

your acts decide who you are Mush, in what other way can a man prove who he is to others? If you have a better way then please elighten me.

Be assured that I dont think that all people who do evil are forever damned to hell or anything, that said most of the people who are filthy rich are very very very bad people(with plenty of skeletons in their closets I dont even want to know about) who have demonstrated time and time again that they do not care about their fellow man in teh least, and that is the worst evil any man can work.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5218273 - 01/24/06 05:39 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
mathematical symbols = √evil




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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5218297 - 01/24/06 05:45 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Mathematical symbols == evil.
Since Man-1 is equal to ActionofMan-n, we can reasonably assume that: Paradigm > good^-1.

"Hate the Mathematician, not the sinner"
-- 12:5 Honest Book of Truth


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5218401 - 01/24/06 06:11 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Mush, you're cracking me up in this thread!:lol: You have roots of evil growing all over the place. :lol:

What about evil being the root of evil?

What definition of evil are we even working with here?

I like the model that sees evil as live spelled backwards. That implies that anything related to not living spawns it.

I take that to mean that fear of death, be it false ego death, death of consciousness or physical death, wherever they think the limits to life are scares people and makes them do evil things to protect themselves from perceived threats of loss of false ego life, loss of conscious life or loss of physical life.

To me fear of loss of life in some form is the root of evil actions and the root of such a fear is........hmmmmmmm.........is what? Thats a good question?  :confused:

Maybe I should flip it over. What happens when we live not in fear of loss of life/livelihood in some form but in love with the life that Is, as it is for what it is while it is? We act differently.

Perhaps the root of evil is the fear of impermanence.

Even Darwin says what adapts well to changing environments continues to survive. It would seem then, that the way to  overcome the fear of impermanence "evil" is to be able to adapt to changing environments well. As we do that, the living in some form continues on. Resisting change of form runs against nature. Perhaps running against nature is the root of all evil.

In religious terms, if God is Nature itself, and running against nature is evil, that would even fit in with the idea of evil being what goes agaisnt God.

Good food for thought Post idea Skorp! I enjoyed reading all of the replies so far! :thumbup:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (01/24/06 06:13 PM)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5218503 - 01/24/06 06:45 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

"The fuel of world hate, although it's just a seed,
but when it grows and flowers, it becomes the world's greed!
"

/Choking Victim


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219254 - 01/24/06 09:39 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Sorry, I disagree. In a non-violent world without criminals and wars, guns would be unnecessary for protection. If I HAD to hunt an animal, it would not be for sport but for survival and a gun is the most effective choice. I would rather S.W.A.T have marksmen with telecsopic sites than bows and arrows. Harpoon guns are used for mooring a boat that is in trouble by firing a line over it and saving life. Bombs are explosive devices used to destroy property for the sake of destruction (not demolition for renovation) and for anti-personnel weapons, but explosives per se are not for such use. I have watched dynamite being used most helpfully. Still, it is a matter of intentionality.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5219432 - 01/24/06 10:21 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

your right you have to weild an evil thing with an evil heart to do evil but does that mean the thing has no inherent evilness? Do we really need to shoot things? even animals? guns are impersonal, and seperate someone from the destruction they cause. at least when hunting with knives or bows and arrows one is in full awareness of what he is doing. We dont need to hunt for meat anymore anyways we have things called domesticated herds. We dont need to blow up buildings we have things called wreckign balls and bulldozers. just because it is easier does not make it right. Some things should be hard, like killing. To make them easy is only a way for humans to remove guilt from themselves. Everyone is so concerned with convience that they could care less about moral implications.

And anytime you invent a "helpful" device capable of murder, you invite it ot be used for that purpose. People kill why make it easier for them? So that you can take a building down in a day instead a week? well i guess that is more cost effective what do you know yet again it all comes back to moeny surprise surprise.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
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"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219526 - 01/24/06 10:40 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Anything which can be used for good cannot be inherently evil.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5219541 - 01/24/06 10:44 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

how is a gun ever used for good even when shoot a bad guy or a deer your still killing and killing is never good, necesarry maybe but never good. there is a difference.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219566 - 01/24/06 10:50 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Self-defense = good

Food = good

Survival = good


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5219590 - 01/24/06 10:54 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

And as for bombs and missiles, if a large comet or asteroid were ever headed on a collision course towards earth, a nuclear missile launched into space may be our only hope.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5219597 - 01/24/06 10:56 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

yes but all of those involve killing and...

killing=evil

Your list is full of selfish needs do you need to kill to survive(perhaps sometimes but one should always find other ways first no?)

Do you need to kill to get Food...Nope

Do you need to to kill in self defense? Nope.

GUNS ONLY PURPUSE IS KILLING how is that not evil?


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219607 - 01/24/06 10:58 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Killing is not evil. Killing is natural. Murder is evil. Killing in self-defense, when necessary, is not evil.

Furthermore, guns are not used solely for killing. If I shot you in the shoulder or the leg, you would most likely survive.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219616 - 01/24/06 11:00 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Id say let the asteroid hit, yes im aware its killing people, but that would be God doing the killing, and that is just fine by me. The world is full of sheep and fools a little house cleaning couldnt hurt anything. If im killed in the process so be it, im ready to die. You obviously arent.

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219629 - 01/24/06 11:05 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
Id say let the asteroid hit, yes im aware its killing people, but that would be God doing the killing, and that is just fine by me.



If I shot you, that would be God killing you too. The separation between God and not-God is illusory.

Quote:

The world is full of sheep and fools a little house cleaning couldnt hurt anything. If im killed in the process so be it, im ready to die. You obviously arent.



I'm ready to die if it's my time. But I'm not ready to have the entire population of this magnificent planet wiped out if it can be prevented. I find it rather cruel of you that you would wish that upon everyone.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219634 - 01/24/06 11:06 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

oh well then i guess we should only give the guns to people who can aim for the shoulder or legs then huh?

killing is natural and necassecy part of life your right and its also the most evil part of nature, one shouldnt look for ways to make it more convienent. Do you think that when you kill in self defense or shoot a young buck for dinner that you feel no guilt? of course you do and you feel that guilt because killing is evil.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say you havent actually killed anything more personal than a bug maybe a bird. just a hunch.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219645 - 01/24/06 11:09 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
oh well then i guess we should only give the guns to people who can aim for the shoulder or legs then huh?



straw man

Quote:

killing is natural and necassecy part of life your right and its also the most evil part of nature, one shouldnt look for ways to make it more convienent. Do you think that when you kill in self defense or shoot a young buck for dinner that you feel no guilt? of course you do and you feel that guilt because killing is evil.



It's sad that your simplistic mind can only concieve in terms of good and evil. There's several shades of grey you're not seeing.

Quote:

I'm going to go on a limb here and say you havent actually killed anything more personal than a bug maybe a bird. just a hunch.



I've gone fishing before, then gutted and ate the fish. But so what?


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219666 - 01/24/06 11:16 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

no if you shot me YOU would be shooting me. You are a human and as such you have no right to judge. God, if you believe in him that is, is infallible, so i would have no problems with his judging me. You are very fallible being the human that you are

God is not illusion if you actually believe in him man, but its all about the side of the fence your on.

Oh yea and if humans were able to divert it then i highly doubt it was Gods will anyways, when he is ready to wipe us out we wont see it coming till its too late.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219697 - 01/24/06 11:23 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

fish are about on par with birds, when you shoot a deer man and look in its eyes you see emotion there. It knows its dieing and until youve looked death in the eye then you dont understand the full impact of having caused something else's death. i dont know how to describe it any better than that. You'll actually have to experiance it yourself. There is a reason that indian tribes would only kill when absolutly necessary, adn then used every bit of the animal they could.

MY "simplistic mind" knows many shades of grey on many issues killing is not one of them. Killing is absolute most evil thing humans can do no matter the circumstance. Slavery, rape, violence, all are bad but at least the victim is still alive, killing IS black and white man its as simple as ALIVE OR DEAD.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMaverick
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219700 - 01/24/06 11:25 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Anyone who says Money is the roof of all evil Doesn't have any.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Maverick]
    #5219761 - 01/24/06 11:46 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Anyone who says Money is the roof of all evil Doesn't have any.




Or he feels he hasn't enough and wants yours. As Ayn Rand puts it -- "Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter."


"Leper's bell" -- what a great phrase!




Phred


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Maverick]
    #5219768 - 01/24/06 11:48 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

yea DRT your right but why dont you think about why that is. Money makes you comfortable, and gets you want you want faster. You have all the food you need a good home maybe you got an Ipod, all sorts of cool stuff to occupy your time right? Your happy right how can that be wrong?

A poor person cant get health care, cant afford good food(dollar store mac and cheese becomes a staple), their teeth go bad cant afford a dentist, definately no ipods, probrobly has a shitty car. Thats not a very happy life is it? Thats just american poor im not going to get into Africa poor.

do the people with money care or notice that the poor suffer? nope. oh they might give some money to charity once in a while or donate some old clothes that dont fit anymore, but i bet they dont sell their ipods or dvds or 30000$ cars to feed starving kids do they? nope.

why would they you ask? they earned the money themselves right? well maybe they would because it hurts them to see people suffer, or maybe because they feel guilty for having that much when others in third world nations have nothing. If i was rich i would spend it all till i was poor again I could not have a clear conscience living with that all that greed in my life, but thats just me. Its all just vanity like the rest of our culture.

selfishness=evil when so many are in need of the BASICS of survival. Im not even talking about all your meaningless toys. Food, Shelter, Clean water, Clothes.

Of course the poor view the rich as Evil, how can you possibly blame them for that?


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Phred]
    #5219799 - 01/24/06 11:54 PM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Anyone who says Money is the roof of all evil Doesn't have any.




Or he feels he hasn't enough and wants yours. As Ayn Rand puts it -- "Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter."


"Leper's bell" -- what a great phrase!




Phred





have you no shame? no guilt about being blessed with so much while so many others have nothing? jeez man i bet you havent even really thought about it. Your too concerned with keeping whats "yours". Like you can even really own anything. If you were with friends and had a pound of weed would not smoke out all your friends? would you not be afraid to pass a blunt around a circle of strangers? People are far too attached to money, its just a possesion like everything else. and what good are possesions really, answer me that.

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219871 - 01/25/06 12:14 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Possessions are useful for picking up secksey women plus distracting them from your lack of knowledge about female orgasm.

The female orgasm is the root of all evil.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5219930 - 01/25/06 12:31 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

ill give you that mush. it says to me that Women are even greedier than men, and usually its for even more useless crap too.

I could go on but something tells me that i should go there. Peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219948 - 01/25/06 12:38 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
no if you shot me YOU would be shooting me. You are a human and as such you have no right to judge. God, if you believe in him that is, is infallible, so i would have no problems with his judging me. You are very fallible being the human that you are

God is not illusion if you actually believe in him man, but its all about the side of the fence your on.



It is not God that is the illusion, but rather the idea that we are separate from God. I am no less a part of God than the asteroid.

Quote:

Oh yea and if humans were able to divert it then i highly doubt it was Gods will anyways, when he is ready to wipe us out we wont see it coming till its too late.



Please refer back to my comment about nuclear weapons. An asteroid hitting earth could be prevented through the use of nuclear weapons. Yet you claimed that such an asteroid hitting Earth would be the will of God. Now you claim that it is not the will of God if it is preventable, which it could be if we used nuclear weapons, which are evil according to you. So please, quit dancing in circles and make up your mind.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5219955 - 01/25/06 12:41 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
fish are about on par with birds, when you shoot a deer man and look in its eyes you see emotion there. It knows its dieing and until youve looked death in the eye then you dont understand the full impact of having caused something else's death.



In other words, only the cute animals count, right?

Quote:

i dont know how to describe it any better than that. You'll actually have to experiance it yourself. There is a reason that indian tribes would only kill when absolutly necessary, adn then used every bit of the animal they could.



Of course. They had limited resources, and didn't want to waste something that could be put to use. Resourcefulness and efficiency have nothing to do with guilt.

Quote:

MY "simplistic mind" knows many shades of grey on many issues killing is not one of them. Killing is absolute most evil thing humans can do no matter the circumstance. Slavery, rape, violence, all are bad but at least the victim is still alive, killing IS black and white man its as simple as ALIVE OR DEAD.



Life feeds on life feeds on life. Go watch the Lion King if you need me to explain the circle of life to you. Then we'll go chat about how evil something that nature depends upon is.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5219979 - 01/25/06 12:51 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Possessions are useful for picking up secksey women plus distracting them from your lack of knowledge about female orgasm.

The female orgasm is the root of all evil.




In the Victorian Era, the female orgasm was seen as an abnormality present in only some rare cases.

Ever since the feminists took hold and preached the value of actually pleasuring a woman, the world's gone to hell. Nuclear bombs, World Wars, HIV, mutually assured destruction... coincidence? I doubt it.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5220005 - 01/25/06 12:57 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

blaze2 said:
no if you shot me YOU would be shooting me. You are a human and as such you have no right to judge. God, if you believe in him that is, is infallible, so i would have no problems with his judging me. You are very fallible being the human that you are

God is not illusion if you actually believe in him man, but its all about the side of the fence your on.



It is not God that is the illusion, but rather the idea that we are separate from God. I am no less a part of God than the asteroid.

Quote:

Oh yea and if humans were able to divert it then i highly doubt it was Gods will anyways, when he is ready to wipe us out we wont see it coming till its too late.



Please refer back to my comment about nuclear weapons. An asteroid hitting earth could be prevented through the use of nuclear weapons. Yet you claimed that such an asteroid hitting Earth would be the will of God. Now you claim that it is not the will of God if it is preventable, which it could be if we used nuclear weapons, which are evil according to you. So please, quit dancing in circles and make up your mind.




God could use you to kill me true enough, but just cause you do kill me doesnt mean God DID use you to do that. Not everything is controlled by God that is a common misconception. He is all powerful and all knowing but that doesnt mean you make the leap that ALL actions are his will. I mean when the Devil acts is that Gods will? The asteroid isnt necessarily part of God either the only part of God that I know is part of God is God so everything else is just the opinion of people adn people shouldnt presume to know the nature of God.

Well here it is on the Nukes man, they are evil and yes any use of them to stop an asteroid would be futher evil, but im not naive enough to think that Mankind wouldnt go for using them in that instance either. I just said taht if they succeded in stoping the asteroid then it obviously wasnt the will of God for it to smack into Earth. If it does hit then you know that it was. Its a sucky way to find out i know, but thats how God rolls.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5220021 - 01/25/06 01:02 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
God could use you to kill me true enough, but just cause you do kill me doesnt mean God DID use you to do that. Not everything is controlled by God that is a common misconception. He is all powerful and all knowing but that doesnt mean you make the leap that ALL actions are his will. I mean when the Devil acts is that Gods will? The asteroid isnt necessarily part of God either the only part of God that I know is part of God is God so everything else is just the opinion of people adn people shouldnt presume to know the nature of God.



God is everywhere. There is nothing that isn't a part of God(including the devil). Thus, my decision to shoot you would be God's decision, as I am part of God, and so are you.

Quote:

Well here it is on the Nukes man, they are evil and yes any use of them to stop an asteroid would be futher evil, but im not naive enough to think that Mankind wouldnt go for using them in that instance either. I just said taht if they succeded in stoping the asteroid then it obviously wasnt the will of God for it to smack into Earth. If it does hit then you know that it was. Its a sucky way to find out i know, but thats how God rolls.



So saving the entire planet is evil? I'm afraid you have a very skewed idea of evil, as well as a very immature and underdeveloped sense of what God is.


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Silversoul]
    #5220088 - 01/25/06 01:30 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

blaze2 said:
fish are about on par with birds, when you shoot a deer man and look in its eyes you see emotion there. It knows its dieing and until youve looked death in the eye then you dont understand the full impact of having caused something else's death.



In other words, only the cute animals count, right?

Quote:

i dont know how to describe it any better than that. You'll actually have to experiance it yourself. There is a reason that indian tribes would only kill when absolutly necessary, adn then used every bit of the animal they could.



Of course. They had limited resources, and didn't want to waste something that could be put to use. Resourcefulness and efficiency have nothing to do with guilt.

Quote:

MY "simplistic mind" knows many shades of grey on many issues killing is not one of them. Killing is absolute most evil thing humans can do no matter the circumstance. Slavery, rape, violence, all are bad but at least the victim is still alive, killing IS black and white man its as simple as ALIVE OR DEAD.



Life feeds on life feeds on life. Go watch the Lion King if you need me to explain the circle of life to you. Then we'll go chat about how evil something that nature depends upon is.




No your not listening man it is an evil act to kill anything, its only the cute animals that can convey facial emotions and make you realize that, fish have no face muscles, birds have beaks, insects skeleton is on the outside and reptiles have no facial muscles. mammals(what we are surprise surprise) are able to show pain and fear and anger in their faces. And the fact that you just blew off this point shows that you have not experianced causeing somethings death and having to watch it die. You kill a buck and stare it in the eye as it takes its last breath then tell me animals dont have souls.


Indians didnt have limited resources you dumb ass they had thousands and thousands of buffaloes they could kill. they CHOSE to limit themselves because they felt guilt for taking even one animal life. They chose to limit themselves to a simple life rather than greedily taking whatever they wanted. They had an appreciation for nature that the west has never had.

Man doesnt need to kill anything but plants technicly buddy. and there are plenty of plants that dont even need to be killed to be harvested and eaten. I eat meat tho I admit that it its good for you that does not mean that killing to get the meat is any more right or good. Killing is killing is killing is killing.

Animals are innocent of guilt Paradigm, humans are not. We know it is a horrible thing we are doing when we kill. If we didnt then why is it that envitably when a young boy kills his first animal he always feels deep remorse? sure it gets easier and easier, but that does not change the fact the first time you KNOW its wrong and selfish.

Once again Killing is something that cant be avoided but should be done with complete respect, you are ending somethings life, for good. I cant help but think you havent fully comprehended that. when you take a life you are forever ending its place on earth and sending it on to whatever is next. It could be great it could be shitty it could be nothing you dont know. Who gives you the right to decide when something should die? Have respect man you are in effect playing God. I dont know about you, but i never like to play God. Im well aware im likely to make a mistake. One should never just dismiss it as an everyday part of life. How would you feel if God just happend to screw up with you?

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
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"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5220109 - 01/25/06 01:37 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

God is everywhere. There is nothing that isn't a part of God(including the devil). Thus, my decision to shoot you would be God's decision, as I am part of God, and so are you.


show me where it says God told us this and you win.


So saving the entire planet is evil? I'm afraid you have a very skewed idea of evil, as well as a very immature and underdeveloped sense of what God is.

Oh yea the name calling argument good one. Saving a planet chock full of evil would be evil yes. I have no love for most of our wasteful, hatefilled, unrespectful, and greed filled planet. For those few people out there who are good I have faith in God that he would protect them. I dont believe that any asteroid or comet will completely wipe us out, if one that big headed this way there are places already prepared in some hollowed out mountain that im sure some people will be able to hide in till the dust settles.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5220327 - 01/25/06 03:03 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

so money is not the root of all evil because its necassary?

No, money is not the root of evil because it is a tool - it is neutral; like a hammer, it can be used for construction or destruction.
If money were objectively the root of all evil, then there would be no evil in this world, had the concept of currency not been introduced? [Of course not]

Alright, let's go back to ye olde fashioned bartering system. Let's just exchange our surplus goods for other surplus goods. Nevermind the fact that there are reasons why we evolved into the form of currency we have today. It takes time and energy to find someone with exactly what you want who's also willing to take what you have to offer. And it isn't always easy to agree on what things are worth. How many skins is a basket of grain worth? What happens if the plow you want is worth a cow and a half?
So back to the olde fashioned bartering system we go. Then what? "Oh, Bartering is the root of all evil!..."
Why? Because there are people who work harder, more efficiently, and thus have a higher surplus of goods to exchange than those who slack, crusade for unproductivity, laziness and hedonistic indulgement?

Nevermind the fact that money hasn't been with mankind during its entire span of civilization, hmm?
From the cro-magnon era to this very day, there has long been the true root of all evil: Ignoramus Irrationalus. Mushman nailed it: Irrationality is the root of evil - irrational thinking [philosophy(s)] breeds irrational actions [ethics].


there is no rational human who can say that money isnt evil.

Au contraire. I am one, as several others are in this thread.


Guns are inherintly evil man so are bombs, there is no reason for them

You are committing the fallacy of Intrinsicism. Guns nor knives, bombs, or rocks are not intrinsically evil nor good. Guns do not kill people; people kill people.

nope the rich bastards who run everythign adn give nothing back have no "dire need" for more money, they are just evil assholes.

Tell that to Goobler. He's a member here, in case you don't know. Your view is extremely niave and immature - normally one of that who has never personally known any wealthy people, and has been subject to biased and stereotypical misinformation about the wealthy through TV, movies and others.

Based on my own experiences - it is the exact opposite of what you're saying, that is the case. And before you make any mistaken assumptions of who I am and where I come from - let me tell you, I was born into poverty [and raised, for seven years] and have moved throughout the entire range of the socio-economic spectrum to the opposite end. I've lived with folks from all walks of life, and I can tell you that your assertions of the wealthy -in contrast to the poverty stricken- are very, very backwards. Am I saying that all wealthy folks are, by default, saints and angels? No. But I recognize the abundance of intelligence, integrity and respect when I see it - this is because I've experienced the abundance of the precise opposite.




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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5220495 - 01/25/06 04:16 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

No, money is not the root of evil because it is a tool - it is neutral; like a hammer, it can be used for construction or destruction.
If money were objectively the root of all evil, then there would be no evil in this world, had the concept of currency not been introduced? [Of course not]

yup thats all true, but all tools have intended uses. The hammer is for hammering nails, the saw for cutting wood, and currency is our 20th century politicly correct way to create different classes of people. Since we cant just go and call people peasents any more they are simply poor people. Some people can make it out of being poor that is about the only advance we have made socially in that area, but most will stay poor for a number of reasons. Poor schools have no money to pay teachers well and so they put out stupider people who cant get good jobs or get into college as easily and will most liekly end up poor like their parents. Even when you make it out of being poor, it is highly unlikely to make it past middle class which really is just being poor, but with nice things. The Rich are in a class unobtainable by 99.9% of the population just like the kinds and nobles in midevil times.



Alright, let's go back to ye olde fashioned bartering system. Let's just exchange our surplus goods for other surplus goods. Nevermind the fact that there are reasons why we evolved into the form of currency we have today. It takes time and energy to find someone with exactly what you want who's also willing to take what you have to offer. And it isn't always easy to agree on what things are worth. How many skins is a basket of grain worth? What happens if the plow you want is worth a cow and a half?


You act as if going backwards is the only way to change a system. Money is only one problem in our society but it is the one that our entire way of life is built upon. why should anything have a value? monetary values will allways put certain things out of reach for certain people. how is that not evil? Nothing is worth anything WE put those values there. a thing is a thing. Things are ways that people gain power over other peoples and everyone knows that power currupts. and curruption is evil for it is always about control, and greed. Both of which are evil.



Nevermind the fact that money hasn't been with mankind during its entire span of civilization, hmm?
From the cro-magnon era to this very day, there has long been the true root of all evil: Ignoramus Irrationalus. Mushman nailed it: Irrationality is the root of evil - irrational thinking [philosophy(s)] breeds irrational actions [ethics].

money as we know it hasnt always been around, but before currency which what you are talking about wealth was measured in herds and land(this was in fact their money) and it bred jealusy and brought about just as much evil as our currency does today.

Au contraire. I am one, as several others are in this thread

so you say.



nope the rich bastards who run everythign adn give nothing back have no "dire need" for more money, they are just evil assholes.

Tell that to Goobler. He's a member here, in case you don't know. Your view is extremely niave and immature - normally one of that who has never personally known any wealthy people, and has been subject to biased and stereotypical misinformation about the wealthy through TV, movies and others.

How do you know who ive met? I know you wont believe me but about 20miles from where i live there is a man who invented the process of stonewash jeans hes got 3 planes two hangers a private airstrip and a three story house with 8 roman style pillars supporting a huge ass balcony on the front of his house. I call that fucking rich. THe guys a duche too. I went to school with his daughter(she was alright I guess tho still spoiled.)



Based on my own experiences - it is the exact opposite of what you're saying, that is the case. And before you make any mistaken assumptions of who I am and where I come from - let me tell you, I was born into poverty [and raised, for seven years] and have moved throughout the entire range of the socio-economic spectrum to the opposite end. I've lived with folks from all walks of life, and I can tell you that your assertions of the wealthy -in contrast to the poverty stricken- are very, very backwards. Am I saying that all wealthy folks are, by default, saints and angels? No. But I recognize the abundance of intelligence, integrity and respect when I see it - this is because I've experienced the abundance of the precise opposite.

I dont assume to know where your from in life(you did that too me tho check the last part of your post) Im glad you made it all the way up to what you think of as a good life, but you most of all if your story be true should know enought to realize you should give back to the needy. Oh yea rich people tend to be alot smarter, and cover up their evilness very well, doesnt mean its not there tho bud. They will act like normal people, but they are all the same, thinking about themselves first(thats the only way to get rich by the way), and they have no compassion for their fellow man. That is evil.

Im not saying rich people are pure evil beings or anything man just that they have all their prioities wrong. When one is doing ok he should then turn his attention to those who arent and help them to do better. I dont mean just giving money away that wouldnt help anyone it would only make more greedy fools, i mean HELPING them personally. And no i cant spell this out for you because everybody needs help in different ways. No two cases are the same. You should read "the sermon on the mount" story in the gospels. Believer or not it makes important points.

You seem to have made the mistake in thinking that i believe society could be just the same as it is now with no money, of course not, we wouldnt have alot of the worthless meaningless crap that we produce today, and alot of spoiled people couldnt live that way. THat is why rich people will always argue that being rich is just fine and dandy, they are unwilling to give things up. I have no problem with giving things up. In fact i find it freeing and liberating. You can live without your 250 sattelite channels believe it or not.

Jesus made it work too, but i guess that the rest of the world is just plain weak is all. To you i am naive oh well thats your thing. If it helps you to justify yourself go ahead ill be naive for you. doesnt change a bit of the truth.


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


Edited by blaze2 (01/25/06 04:27 AM)


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #5220563 - 01/25/06 05:13 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Money is NOT the root of all evil!
which means Skorpivo does not belong to the working class


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5220611 - 01/25/06 05:46 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Funny, I saw a bumper sticker today on the way into work that read: If money is the root of all evil, then why do churches beg for it?


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Ravus]
    #5220870 - 01/25/06 09:29 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

you mean women can have orgasms too?


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Invisibleraytrace
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5220875 - 01/25/06 09:31 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

:what: I'll need a proof of that


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5220917 - 01/25/06 09:50 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

hence, men invented science


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5220925 - 01/25/06 09:54 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

wow, I feel really clever


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5220928 - 01/25/06 09:55 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

My dog has dog fur.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5220930 - 01/25/06 09:56 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

Hmm... why am I posting stupid one liners to myself that make no sense... oh yeah, so that I can get other people to think about stuff  :rolleyes:


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Seuss]
    #5220933 - 01/25/06 09:57 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

don't worry it'll wear off


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Seuss]
    #5221106 - 01/25/06 11:35 AM (16 years, 6 days ago)

For those with higher intelligence quotient, what I said was a satyr of the notions of the scientific mind as a masculine trait, sexual innocence, male ignorance concerning female pleasure (note: pleasure, not orgasm), as also the nature of the feminine as deceiver and the origin of science as the result of an animal possessed by natural instincts being driven through intellectualism towards truth that in the end can only be accepted as deceptive faith. This however, can only touch the tip of the iceberg of the unfathomable depth in my apparently meaningless writings that have stemmed from years in the laboratories and countless participations in academic symposia, though I like Picasso have managed after a lengthy successful career to distill expression into the absurdly minimal. All in one irrelevant thread like a shampoo free with a tuna salad sandwich. Did I mention my academic credits?


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Offlineblaze2
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5221714 - 01/25/06 03:23 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Funny, I saw a bumper sticker today on the way into work that read: If money is the root of all evil, then why do churches beg for it?

Because all churches are evil man. They disobey the very book they teach. And that is why God says "worship in your closet".

peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5221818 - 01/25/06 03:50 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

raytrace said:
you mean women can have orgasms too?




Give em some face.

The majority of nerve tissue is in and around the vulva and the clit, not the walls of the vagina. With exception of the G-spot, the vagina has very little nerve tissue. So little, that anesthetics are often not needed when performing surgery to the vaginal wall. Reports vary whether G-spot dervived orgasms are stronger than clitoral orgasms, but the clit is definitely easier to stimulate.
Also, 33% of women report NEVER having an orgasm during intravaginal coitus. Lick it before ya stick it.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5222184 - 01/25/06 05:23 PM (16 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

blaze2 said:
Id say let the asteroid hit, yes im aware its killing people, but that would be God doing the killing, and that is just fine by me. The world is full of sheep and fools a little house cleaning couldnt hurt anything. If im killed in the process so be it, im ready to die. You obviously arent.

You are a very conflicted individual, and the extremes of your contradictions should be of significant concern to you.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Money and Bird Flu! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5225317 - 01/26/06 11:38 AM (16 years, 5 days ago)



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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5226320 - 01/26/06 04:34 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

blaze2 said:
Id say let the asteroid hit, yes im aware its killing people, but that would be God doing the killing, and that is just fine by me. The world is full of sheep and fools a little house cleaning couldnt hurt anything. If im killed in the process so be it, im ready to die. You obviously arent.

You are a very conflicted individual, and the extremes of your contradictions should be of significant concern to you.




Can you not see how evil our world has become, and you want us ot go out and set up shop on other plantets, and bring spread our evil with us. Perhaps I put that whole asteroid thing in a slightly rough way that obviously pisses some people off let me try again.

I have no conflictions Markos, I simply believe in God, and if God decides to rain down fire who am I to stop him? God is good, and works in rightousness. If innocents are killed in the process then they are better off being killed by an act of God than suffering in this world. For any true innocents are suffering. Those that are not will have means to live better(MONEY) and they will not be giving to the suffering(since they still have their money). The Lord wants everyone to live well for a certain, but when some have teh means and others do not those with are for a certain sinning in greed, and vanity, which will lead to jelausy, and anger, and simply breed more evil upon the world.

I would rather have 100 people left in teh world living a life of equality than the 6 billion there are now where the rich and powerful oppress, and violence and greed are the rules. THis is a SAD time in our history. No, I would not be upset to see it ruined.

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Veritas]
    #5226357 - 01/26/06 04:44 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

:lol:  money does multiply much slower than bird flue. Where are the banks of bird flue ? The chickenmarkets in asia ? Is there a remedy to money ? :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5226364 - 01/26/06 04:47 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

A remedy for money?  Hmmmm...no, I think it's incurable. :grin:

Death seems to cure us of our need for money, though.  "You can't take it with you."  :lol:  The Egyptians tried to do so, but the tomb raiders have foiled their big plans.


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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5226691 - 01/26/06 06:13 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Is there a remedy to money?




Technocracy.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: blaze2]
    #5227573 - 01/26/06 08:55 PM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Fortunately for the rest of us, you are not calling the shots. As for G-D being "Good," [S]He is also the author of evil (Isaiah 45:7 since you like Biblical sayings). Of course, the G-D of the writers of the ancients was:

"...a dictatorial and insecure deity who could not live a moment without [] assurance from a sycophantic audience. No genuine God could possibly behave in such a way." Qabalistic Concepts: Living the Tree by William G. Gray, p. 188.

You can't be too familiar with the various types of genocide that the G-D of the Bible was supposed to be responsible for from the Deluge of Genesis, through Moses' orders to slay every man, woman, child and animal, to apocalyptic stories of damnation. Please don't paint a half-blind picture of G-D. This is not a conception of deity that a 21st century human being needs to believe in. It is a formulation of a primitive human with a primitive might-makes-right mentality. This is certainly not a conception that I hold as true or worthy of worship - some irrascible 'Cosmic King.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5230035 - 01/27/06 08:51 AM (16 years, 4 days ago)

Give em some face
they already have face, thats the problem


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: raytrace]
    #5232266 - 01/27/06 07:47 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Money is not the root of all evil. The greed of man leads him to evil, money is merely his tool.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: lysergicide]
    #5232290 - 01/27/06 07:53 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Fear is the root of all evil.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefresh313
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Icelander]
    #5233030 - 01/27/06 11:23 PM (16 years, 3 days ago)

the greed to obtain it and then the fear of losing it


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: fresh313]
    #5233325 - 01/28/06 12:19 AM (16 years, 3 days ago)

Greed also finds its roots in fear.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSprings
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Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Icelander]
    #5322915 - 02/21/06 05:45 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

This is an amusing thread!  :thumbup:

I agree that money is a tool, and just like any tool is only limited to the user of said tool.

I think a majority of the currency is used very poorly and by lazy, afraid people. To really scratch the surface of understanding the use of money on any level its imperative to have a good view of its relationships to everything.
None of which are relevant the the fact that money itself is not evil, but I seriously question the ability of the people "in charge" of money and the limitations they are bound by. The fact is money in our society is mainly used to try and control and influence, and I think is very damaging and negative use.

All that being said, I don't have any money at the moment, I was robbed  recently. I'm thinking I may have to get a few credit cards and with drawl all that I can from them and take off. If you think thats not honorable or a reasonable way to obtain money Id debate that its better than getting a "real" job to earn money. Id rather not have to do that but at this point I'm considering it, along with many other options, I mean If I could come up with what I want, I believe I could use it for more good than what most money is used for, and believe my use would be a positive thing for nature and life. The best part is I think Ill be able to achieve my goals regardless if I have the tool of money.

Whats the point? Donate to me :laugh:


Quote:

Pardigram said:
God is everywhere. There is nothing that isn't a part of God(including the devil). Thus, my decision to shoot you would be God's decision, as I am part of God.

Blaze2 responded:Show me where it says that and you win




I'm with pardigram on this topic. I mean if I where to open a page in the bible and it had a quote from god saying "God is everywhere, the distinction between god and not is an illusion" you would believe it then? Are your views of what or who god is and what he does or thinks  based on what he has said? Or written? Cause i cant find him listed on amazon.

Quote:

Blaze2 said:
Oh yea the name calling argument good one. Saving a planet chock full of evil would be evil yes. I have no love for most of our wasteful, hate filled, unrespectful, and greed filled planet.




What are you afraid of? Sounds like your not afraid of death, you've said your ready to die. You say you have no love for most of out wasteful, hatefilled, unrespectfull, and greedfilled planet. Seems like your afraid to try to love what you dont understand or what you view as not god or goodness. Focused or stuck on the bad and negative?

Peace.:heart:


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil!: A Tangent: On Presumptuous Words [Re: Springs]
    #5327137 - 02/22/06 06:11 AM (15 years, 11 months ago)

So, a phrase ("the root of all evil") was created, and is commonly used and known by almost everyone that speaks English.

Of course since we have the word, the entity that is THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL, just must absolutely exist, even at the least, figuratively.
Of course since we have any words at all -- in any combinations or alone -- they must be words for IT, of course. Yes, of course, there must be "a word for it" (it has/can have a word) and not vice versa (the word has/can have an it), nor any other possibility.

So, to get back to your discussion, I think (muhahaha) the root of all evil is whipping-cream-bottle-speech.


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
Male

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Money is NOT the root of all evil! [Re: Springs]
    #5328357 - 02/22/06 05:09 PM (15 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Chud said:
Quote:

Blaze2 said:
Oh yea the name calling argument good one. Saving a planet chock full of evil would be evil yes. I have no love for most of our wasteful, hate filled, unrespectful, and greed filled planet.




What are you afraid of? Sounds like your not afraid of death, you've said your ready to die. You say you have no love for most of out wasteful, hatefilled, unrespectfull, and greedfilled planet. Seems like your afraid to try to love what you dont understand or what you view as not god or goodness. Focused or stuck on the bad and negative?

Peace.:heart:




I'm not afraid of anything.  believe it or not. 

Dont get me wrong I like(like not love) much of this world, but I realize its still a product of evil.  This computer I am working on I like it, but it wouldnt be here if it wasnt for the never ending arms race of western civilization.  Im not stuck on the evil or bad, this whole thread just happened to be on it.  And call me old fashioned but I dont love anythign that is not good, that would be extremely contradictory.  Why should you love anything that is not good?  Sounds foolish to me.  peace

blaze2


--------------------
"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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